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> IMO the core problem is that meat is so heavily subsidized that it's hard for them to compete. This is the real problem. Without all the government subsidies

> IMO the core problem is that meat is so heavily subsidized that it's hard for them to compete. This is the real problem. Without all the government subsidies, a pound of ground beef would be closer to $30-$40 today instead of the $8-$10/lb it is now. $38 billion dollars in the US each year to subsidize meat and dairy, but only $17 million goes to fruit and vegetable farmers. It's completely backwards, especially considering the climate impact on meat and dairy farming.

AngryData 7mo ago
Im calling BS on the $30-$40 a pound beef because ive raised my own cows for personal consumption and even if I paid myself $20 an hour for every second I spent with my cows, and assumed my alfalfa field usage could produce an expensive cash crop without fertilizer, and completely ignored the opportunity loss of only caring for 1-2 cows instead of 30+, that is still a cost WAY above what my beef costs.
- xethos 7mo ago
  Without taking a side, you've skipped every step past the field here. Transportation, butchering, packaging, and grocery store shelves, with profit margins, health / sanitation checks, and shrinkage at every step
  - skeeter2020 7mo ago
    not sure where the GP lives but in Canada even beef raised for personal consumption needs to meet most of those things you've listed, aside from grocery-related, and as someone who's bought directly from the producer (with 3rd party butchering) the price is not substantially lower than retail; scale likely makes up for a lot of the commercial supply chain costs.
  - autoexec 7mo ago
    Don't forget the massive costs of lobbying governments to weaken regulations and reduce inspections and also the costs of bribing meat inspectors, and the legal expenses and lawyer fees required to defend themselves from lawsuits surrounding their illegal activities, then also the millions in fines they have to pay to settle lawsuits they lose about their bribing of meat inspectors or colluding to drive wages down or whatever other illegal thing they got caught doing. You can bet all those costs increase the prices we pay.
    - DangitBobby 7mo ago
      Surely none of that is actually more expensive than just following the actual health regulations or they wouldn't bother to do any of it.
  - Dylan16807 7mo ago
    We do things at industrial scale because that saves money. If a local butcher could pay a relatively tiny amount for direct cow shipping, save multiple steps, and sell the meat for 60% of the grocery store price, they'd instantly be booming with business.
    - NewJazz 7mo ago
      And? They still add costs, even though those costs are perhaps lower than on a small scale.
      - Dylan16807 7mo ago
        It means that when AngryData "skips every step past the field" they didn't save any notable money by doing so. Their beef costs more than unsubsidized industrial beef would cost, so when they call BS on $30-40 that is a valid call.
  - AngryData 7mo ago
    I still have to transport and pay for butchering and packaging myself which is done in a certified facility with sanitation checks. Oh sure grocery stores have to make a profit, but they also get better deals than I do for both transportation and butchering because they deal in bulk.
- yesfitz 7mo ago
  How much did your beef end up costing?
- thevillagechief 7mo ago
  I believe it. Every summer we buy goat or lamb imported from Australia/New Zealand. It's usually less than $15/lb. Those two countries barely provide any subsidies for their farmers, and the meat is cheaper than my local farmers, even with their strict biosecurity regulations.
  - KnuthIsGod 7mo ago
    Australian citizen here. There are massive tax, fuel, land tax, health care subsidies for our farmers. Even doctors who cater to the remote areas where farmers dwell get extra payments from our governments. https://www.health.gov.au/topics/rural-health-workforce/classifications/rrma https://www.health.gov.au/topics/rural-health-workforce/clas...
    - reaperducer 7mo ago
      Even doctors who cater to the remote areas where farmers dwell get extra payments from our governments. Very common in the United States, too. There are a lot of doctors who get their student loans reduced or paid off by state and local governments in exchange for working a certain number of years in less-desirable locations. I've worked with a number of them. There was an entire TV show based on it that ran on CBS for five years: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Exposure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Exposure
- strken 7mo ago
  Yeah, it's absolute nonsense. I'm paying $34/kg for direct-to-consumer beef in Australia, a country with some of the lowest agricultural subsidies in the world, including delivery and at a premium markup, during a time that beef prices have hit a historical high due to processor capacity, and I'm getting prime cuts and roasts too, not just mince.
gruez 7mo ago
>Without all the government subsidies, a pound of ground beef would be closer to $30-$40 today instead of the $8-$10/lb it is now Source? That seems implausibly high. Using your $38B/year subsidy figure gets us $112/year in subsidies per American. There's no way you can get $30 unsubsidized price from that unless you think the average American only eats beef once a week.
- CalRobert 7mo ago
  … do they eat more? I would have thought once a week is high. Though median could differ from average. 12% of Americans eat half the beef https://sph.tulane.edu/how-mere-12-americans-eat-half-nations-beef-creating-significant-health-and-environmental-impacts https://sph.tulane.edu/how-mere-12-americans-eat-half-nation...
  - Jensson 7mo ago
    Average American eat around 60 pounds a year, typically you eat less than a full pound when you eat so yeah they probably eat more than once per week. https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/per-capita-meat-usa https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/per-capita-meat-usa Given the $112 subsidies per year above, that would add $2 per pound of beef, that would slightly raise the price not balloon it to 30-40 as poster claimed. So he was bullshitting.
    - 542354234235 7mo ago
      Average includes vegans, and I'm pretty sure they eat it less than once per week. It’s just how much meat divided by population. The previous comment shows that the consumption is not anywhere close to equally distributed.
      - elsjaako 7mo ago
        The subsidies are also paid by vegans. Both the average meat consumption and average subsidy can be multiplied by the total population to get the total.
9rx 7mo ago
That doesn't really make sense, though, as rice — one of the main ingredients in the aforementioned product — receives the highest subsidy rate in the USA. A Beyond Meat burger should be cheaper than a meat burger thanks to subsidies.

AngryData 7mo ago

Im calling BS on the $30-$40 a pound beef because ive raised my own cows for personal consumption and even if I paid myself $20 an hour for every second I spent with my cows, and assumed my alfalfa field usage could produce an expensive cash crop without fertilizer, and completely ignored the opportunity loss of only caring for 1-2 cows instead of 30+, that is still a cost WAY above what my beef costs.

xethos 7mo ago
Without taking a side, you've skipped every step past the field here. Transportation, butchering, packaging, and grocery store shelves, with profit margins, health / sanitation checks, and shrinkage at every step
- skeeter2020 7mo ago
  not sure where the GP lives but in Canada even beef raised for personal consumption needs to meet most of those things you've listed, aside from grocery-related, and as someone who's bought directly from the producer (with 3rd party butchering) the price is not substantially lower than retail; scale likely makes up for a lot of the commercial supply chain costs.
- autoexec 7mo ago
  Don't forget the massive costs of lobbying governments to weaken regulations and reduce inspections and also the costs of bribing meat inspectors, and the legal expenses and lawyer fees required to defend themselves from lawsuits surrounding their illegal activities, then also the millions in fines they have to pay to settle lawsuits they lose about their bribing of meat inspectors or colluding to drive wages down or whatever other illegal thing they got caught doing. You can bet all those costs increase the prices we pay.
  - DangitBobby 7mo ago
    Surely none of that is actually more expensive than just following the actual health regulations or they wouldn't bother to do any of it.
- Dylan16807 7mo ago
  We do things at industrial scale because that saves money. If a local butcher could pay a relatively tiny amount for direct cow shipping, save multiple steps, and sell the meat for 60% of the grocery store price, they'd instantly be booming with business.
  - NewJazz 7mo ago
    And? They still add costs, even though those costs are perhaps lower than on a small scale.
    - Dylan16807 7mo ago
      It means that when AngryData "skips every step past the field" they didn't save any notable money by doing so. Their beef costs more than unsubsidized industrial beef would cost, so when they call BS on $30-40 that is a valid call.
- AngryData 7mo ago
  I still have to transport and pay for butchering and packaging myself which is done in a certified facility with sanitation checks. Oh sure grocery stores have to make a profit, but they also get better deals than I do for both transportation and butchering because they deal in bulk.
yesfitz 7mo ago
How much did your beef end up costing?
thevillagechief 7mo ago
I believe it. Every summer we buy goat or lamb imported from Australia/New Zealand. It's usually less than $15/lb. Those two countries barely provide any subsidies for their farmers, and the meat is cheaper than my local farmers, even with their strict biosecurity regulations.
- KnuthIsGod 7mo ago
  Australian citizen here. There are massive tax, fuel, land tax, health care subsidies for our farmers. Even doctors who cater to the remote areas where farmers dwell get extra payments from our governments. https://www.health.gov.au/topics/rural-health-workforce/classifications/rrma https://www.health.gov.au/topics/rural-health-workforce/clas...
  - reaperducer 7mo ago
    Even doctors who cater to the remote areas where farmers dwell get extra payments from our governments. Very common in the United States, too. There are a lot of doctors who get their student loans reduced or paid off by state and local governments in exchange for working a certain number of years in less-desirable locations. I've worked with a number of them. There was an entire TV show based on it that ran on CBS for five years: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Exposure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Exposure
strken 7mo ago
Yeah, it's absolute nonsense. I'm paying $34/kg for direct-to-consumer beef in Australia, a country with some of the lowest agricultural subsidies in the world, including delivery and at a premium markup, during a time that beef prices have hit a historical high due to processor capacity, and I'm getting prime cuts and roasts too, not just mince.

gruez 7mo ago

>Without all the government subsidies, a pound of ground beef would be closer to $30-$40 today instead of the $8-$10/lb it is now Source? That seems implausibly high. Using your $38B/year subsidy figure gets us $112/year in subsidies per American. There's no way you can get $30 unsubsidized price from that unless you think the average American only eats beef once a week.

CalRobert 7mo ago
… do they eat more? I would have thought once a week is high. Though median could differ from average. 12% of Americans eat half the beef https://sph.tulane.edu/how-mere-12-americans-eat-half-nations-beef-creating-significant-health-and-environmental-impacts https://sph.tulane.edu/how-mere-12-americans-eat-half-nation...
- Jensson 7mo ago
  Average American eat around 60 pounds a year, typically you eat less than a full pound when you eat so yeah they probably eat more than once per week. https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/per-capita-meat-usa https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/per-capita-meat-usa Given the $112 subsidies per year above, that would add $2 per pound of beef, that would slightly raise the price not balloon it to 30-40 as poster claimed. So he was bullshitting.
  - 542354234235 7mo ago
    Average includes vegans, and I'm pretty sure they eat it less than once per week. It’s just how much meat divided by population. The previous comment shows that the consumption is not anywhere close to equally distributed.
    - elsjaako 7mo ago
      The subsidies are also paid by vegans. Both the average meat consumption and average subsidy can be multiplied by the total population to get the total.

9rx 7mo ago

That doesn't really make sense, though, as rice — one of the main ingredients in the aforementioned product — receives the highest subsidy rate in the USA. A Beyond Meat burger should be cheaper than a meat burger thanks to subsidies.