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China also had made industry espionage their way to go in these things. They are not even hiding it anymore. It's almost comical how much they copied SpaceX. An

China also had made industry espionage their way to go in these things. They are not even hiding it anymore. It's almost comical how much they copied SpaceX. And I'd be surprised if they hadn't supply-chained themselves into some level of access in all the big aerospace corpos by now. But Europe? Developing this kind of stuff from scratch in a few years without an unregulated messy startup ecosystem and no army of state sponsored hackers? No chance.

Liftyee 8mo ago
Curious - Any sources? Looking at publicly available details and copying them might be intellectually dishonest if it was a piece of coursework, but this isn't an academic research project. Taking features from something that's known to work is the fastest way to get to something working. If there's actual smuggling of designs or trade secrets going on, I'd be more interested. But if it's just "the rocket looks the same on the outside", that's hardly "industrial espionage".
- buckle8017 8mo ago
  [flagged]
  - bryanlarsen 8mo ago
    Sure, they're trying. But there's no evidence they've succeeded in stealing anything other than open source intelligence from SpaceX. There's a lot of open source intelligence about SpaceX rocket designs available.
  - throw310822 8mo ago
    Be serious, do you think defense industry normally respects other nations' industrial secrets?
- mwambua 8mo ago
  Bloomberg's podcast "The Big Take" has been running an interesting series on Chinese industrial espionage called "The Sixth Bureau". Here's a link to the Youtube playlist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38L5UzLwt-s&list=PLe4PRejZgr0M83kAtNrxUARmTF8WFOK65 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38L5UzLwt-s&list=PLe4PRejZgr...
joe_mamba 8mo ago
>China also had made industry espionage their way to go in these things. Few layman know this but France is one of the biggest industrial espionage players active in the US and Europe, after Israel of course. In fact, according to Wikileaks diplomatic cables from Berlin quote: "France is the country that conducts the most industrial espionage [in Europe], even more than China or Russia." Basically, every nation on the planet engages in espionage for its own benefit if they can get away with it. There's no honor amongst thieves. Singling out China as if they're the only ones doing it, or the ones doing it the most, is both naive and hilarious.
- bdauvergne 8mo ago
  Diplomatic cables are not a source of truth, they are heavily biased. The fact they had to be stolen does not give them more weight. There is a lot of bias in US governmental opinion on french technology that such a small country cannot be so advanced without stealing; opinion which started with the french nuclear and space program. My opinion on those discourses about France, China or the USSR in the past are just mostly propaganda from the US MIC to ensure continued funding.
  - joe_mamba 8mo ago
    >Diplomatic cables are not a source of truth, they are heavily biased. As opposed to...?
cyberax 8mo ago
> China also had made industry espionage their way to go in these things. They're even espionaging from themselves in the future! Dude, have you ever _been_ in China? They don't need espionage, they're now way ahead of the world in technology, except in a few areas like biotech research and semiconductor manufacturing. For the last decade, China has been having more engineers in _training_ than the total number of engineers in the US. Sure, the quality of Chinese universities is not that great, but the sheer number of them has its own power.
- noosphr 8mo ago
  I strongly suggest to anyone who thinks this isn't true to go to Shenzhen and then SF. One feels like the future. The other feels like you will get shot.
  - mikkupikku 8mo ago
    Nonexistent relevance to rockets.
  - inglor_cz 8mo ago
    Rockets are notoriously complicated, though. Only a few nations even managed to get to the orbit, and not for a lack of trying. SpaceX is a rare bird - a space startup that actually achieved not just spaceflight, but (so far only partial) reusability of launchers. Most space startups died long before that, including Carmack's Armadillo Aerospace. Given that they are gone, we don't think of them often, but the total graveyard of defunct space startups is quite sizeable. Russia seems to be slowly losing their space capabilities. The EU still does not have a human-rated launcher. These aren't small entities either. Getting to space is a dangerous business with extremely thin security margins, where previous experience matters a lot. I think China will eventually have reusable rockets, but it will take some time.
    - cyberax 8mo ago
      China has at least two startups that launched rockets into space. Zhuque-3 launch even almost landed a booster. It's the second-mover advantage. Once you know that something is possible, you can often avoid exploring all the dead ends.
emkoemko 8mo ago
whats the issue with that? US just cloned the Iranian drone.... all countries do this
- sigmoid10 7mo ago
  Anyone who has seen a picture of that drone could copy it. Heck, I bet DJI or similar could make a better version just by looking at it if they really wanted to. The drone markt is super saturated with cheap, practical components. But copying a self landing rocket is simply not possible without knowing a ton of internal details that you will never get from watching videos of it.
  - emkoemko 7mo ago
    "Anyone who has seen a picture of that drone could copy it." and yet they bragged about taking one and reverse engineering it to make a clone.... so your saying US of A couldn't copy it by picture alone? it took them this long to get a intact one to clone?

Liftyee 8mo ago

Curious - Any sources? Looking at publicly available details and copying them might be intellectually dishonest if it was a piece of coursework, but this isn't an academic research project. Taking features from something that's known to work is the fastest way to get to something working. If there's actual smuggling of designs or trade secrets going on, I'd be more interested. But if it's just "the rocket looks the same on the outside", that's hardly "industrial espionage".

buckle8017 8mo ago
[flagged]
- bryanlarsen 8mo ago
  Sure, they're trying. But there's no evidence they've succeeded in stealing anything other than open source intelligence from SpaceX. There's a lot of open source intelligence about SpaceX rocket designs available.
- throw310822 8mo ago
  Be serious, do you think defense industry normally respects other nations' industrial secrets?
mwambua 8mo ago
Bloomberg's podcast "The Big Take" has been running an interesting series on Chinese industrial espionage called "The Sixth Bureau". Here's a link to the Youtube playlist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38L5UzLwt-s&list=PLe4PRejZgr0M83kAtNrxUARmTF8WFOK65 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38L5UzLwt-s&list=PLe4PRejZgr...

joe_mamba 8mo ago

>China also had made industry espionage their way to go in these things. Few layman know this but France is one of the biggest industrial espionage players active in the US and Europe, after Israel of course. In fact, according to Wikileaks diplomatic cables from Berlin quote: "France is the country that conducts the most industrial espionage [in Europe], even more than China or Russia." Basically, every nation on the planet engages in espionage for its own benefit if they can get away with it. There's no honor amongst thieves. Singling out China as if they're the only ones doing it, or the ones doing it the most, is both naive and hilarious.

bdauvergne 8mo ago
Diplomatic cables are not a source of truth, they are heavily biased. The fact they had to be stolen does not give them more weight. There is a lot of bias in US governmental opinion on french technology that such a small country cannot be so advanced without stealing; opinion which started with the french nuclear and space program. My opinion on those discourses about France, China or the USSR in the past are just mostly propaganda from the US MIC to ensure continued funding.
- joe_mamba 8mo ago
  >Diplomatic cables are not a source of truth, they are heavily biased. As opposed to...?

cyberax 8mo ago

> China also had made industry espionage their way to go in these things. They're even espionaging from themselves in the future! Dude, have you ever _been_ in China? They don't need espionage, they're now way ahead of the world in technology, except in a few areas like biotech research and semiconductor manufacturing. For the last decade, China has been having more engineers in _training_ than the total number of engineers in the US. Sure, the quality of Chinese universities is not that great, but the sheer number of them has its own power.

noosphr 8mo ago
I strongly suggest to anyone who thinks this isn't true to go to Shenzhen and then SF. One feels like the future. The other feels like you will get shot.
- mikkupikku 8mo ago
  Nonexistent relevance to rockets.
- inglor_cz 8mo ago
  Rockets are notoriously complicated, though. Only a few nations even managed to get to the orbit, and not for a lack of trying. SpaceX is a rare bird - a space startup that actually achieved not just spaceflight, but (so far only partial) reusability of launchers. Most space startups died long before that, including Carmack's Armadillo Aerospace. Given that they are gone, we don't think of them often, but the total graveyard of defunct space startups is quite sizeable. Russia seems to be slowly losing their space capabilities. The EU still does not have a human-rated launcher. These aren't small entities either. Getting to space is a dangerous business with extremely thin security margins, where previous experience matters a lot. I think China will eventually have reusable rockets, but it will take some time.
  - cyberax 8mo ago
    China has at least two startups that launched rockets into space. Zhuque-3 launch even almost landed a booster. It's the second-mover advantage. Once you know that something is possible, you can often avoid exploring all the dead ends.

emkoemko 8mo ago

whats the issue with that? US just cloned the Iranian drone.... all countries do this

sigmoid10 7mo ago
Anyone who has seen a picture of that drone could copy it. Heck, I bet DJI or similar could make a better version just by looking at it if they really wanted to. The drone markt is super saturated with cheap, practical components. But copying a self landing rocket is simply not possible without knowing a ton of internal details that you will never get from watching videos of it.
- emkoemko 7mo ago
  "Anyone who has seen a picture of that drone could copy it." and yet they bragged about taking one and reverse engineering it to make a clone.... so your saying US of A couldn't copy it by picture alone? it took them this long to get a intact one to clone?