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I think this is good to highlight for non-Scandinavians. Scandinavian countries are extremely open and transparent in a way that might be shocking for American
by picafrost 7mo ago
I think this is good to highlight for non-Scandinavians.
Scandinavian countries are extremely open and transparent in a way that might be shocking for Americans. For example, in Norway, I can check nearly anyone's brokerage account holdings, addresses, phone numbers, etc. on public websites. I can in theory look up anyone's tax filings.
Personal identification numbers do not tend to be considered private in the same way that social security numbers in the US are.
- ahoka 7mo agoNot open but stupid, IMHO.
- whynotmaybe 7mo agoI heard a rumor that some people use this to check their neighbour's revenue and sometimes make snark comments if one of them has a high revenue but lives in a "average revenue" part of town. They'd say that if you earn a lot, you shouldn't take a cheap housing. Any truth to that?
- sorum 7mo agoYep, that tracks. There's also the underlying current of Jantelagen (Law of Jante) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante
- internet_points 7mo agoMaking snark comments about that sounds very unlikely. More likely they'd have respect for someone living frugally and not showing off. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante
- ale 7mo agoYes and no. You get notified if someone else actually asks for your revenue info and so in practice nobody actually does it.
- arcticfox 7mo agoIs this not trivial to get a random person to check stuff for you in exchange for making requests for them (on people they are interested in)? Or is that illegal?
- vodkapump 7mo agoThere's paid services that pull it for you, most charging around 100nok (10eur) per lookup.[1] Media is also allowed to pull "top" lists like the 100 people with the most income in a city, 100 people with the most wealth in a city, etc. [1] https://sjekkskatt.no/ https://sjekkskatt.no/
- kivle 7mo agoThere used to be a lot more of that, but a system was put in place where you have to identify yourself with electronic ID to access the information, and the information is logged so the other party can see it. Nowadays I think mostly journalists use it to pull up information about politicians and other people that are in the public spotlight. There are of course the yearly "richest people in Norway" lists in various categories.
- embedding-shape 7mo ago> There used to be a lot more of that, but a system was put in place where you have to identify yourself with electronic ID to access the information, and the information is logged so the other party can see it. Yeah, kind of a fake solution, request it via Ratsit or whatever and all they get to see is that someone used Ratsit, but not who actually requested it. Same goes for criminal cases, using Krimfup or whatever just leads to the service's name "leaking", while you can use fake details to sign up for both Ratsit and Krimfup.
- Epa095 7mo agoI don't think there's anything like ratsit in Norway which would let you do this query anonymously.
- ruszki 7mo agoWhat is the harm in this case? Shit people are shit even without information. They would be snark about something else then.
- whynotmaybe 7mo agoI think it was covered during a discussion about immigrants that are easily rejected - because they're immigrants. The points was that it added another layer of issues for immigrants because they didn't understand the neighbourhood they "should be living in" with their revenue.
- ruszki 7mo agoWhy is this not the “shit people do shit things” category? This happens even without being immigrants. Large part of my family lives in a way poorer neighborhood than what we can afford, because we don’t care to move. People who have problem with this had other problems even before we got richer. There is exactly zero difference. The exact same people are snark as before, just for something else now. They were and would be snark even without this. This seems to me a very bad attempt to hide xenophobia.
- heraldgeezer 7mo agoWe don't talk to our neighbours.
- lukan 7mo agoBut about them?
- embedding-shape 7mo ago> They'd say that if you earn a lot, you shouldn't take a cheap housing. I think a lot of "humbleness" is also enforced this way, in the US seems normal (or even some European countries) to flaunt your wealth, and others seem more or less OK with it, while in Sweden it's much more socially unacceptable to in any sort of way brag about being rich, or showing that off. Humble-richness is OK and tolerated, but flagrantly displaying your wealth among the public is generally frowned upon. So together with that, living in a average neighborhood but have a house that sticks out as clearly "rich person's house" will gain you evil looks from your neighbors, as you're "supposed to" live in a different neighborhood where neighbors look more equal, otherwise you again stick out, which is cause for friction culturally. Lots of culture in Sweden is less about "lets correctly solve the problem" and more "lets ensure the gaping holes aren't so visible for everyone, so we can ignore it properly".
- torginus 7mo agoI have a friend who has moved to Sweden a while ago, and she told me a lot about the Swedish housing situation, and admittedly most if it went over my head, but in short, apparently very few places would even allow you to build even somewhat freely. Apparently she was in a situation where she 'owned' her house, but still paid a monthly maintenance fee to some agency. and she wasn't allowed to repaint the rooms or do any sort of repairs, but had to go through some agency, who would do it for her. Apparently that was a neighborhood thing, but she told me of epic (and apparently fruitless) struggles of her friends' who wanted to repaint their house in a different color and install some circular windows.
- lysace 7mo ago[flagged]
- alentodorov 7mo agowhat
- 7mo ago
- daneel_w 7mo agoMaking snarky comments about it, no, not really. Will some people snoop around? Yes, nosy people can be found everywhere.
- LtWorf 7mo agoYou get a notification by post if someone requested your info.
- ROllerozxa 7mo agoAnd then there are widespread amounts of identity theft and mapping out of minorities, but you may sleep well as everyone knowing where you do so is an important step in making sure corruption is no more, don't think too much about it.
- Batman8675309 7mo agoJust a few years ago this was about to change in Sweden. But they didn't change it, because "women should be able to look up the men that they date".
- ROllerozxa 7mo agoOh yes. I'm Swedish and I do have to admit I have looked up quite a lot of people on these kinds of sites. It's become so normalised to do this even though I also feel like it would be better as a whole if they just did not exist in the first place. Last update I heard about something being done about it was this: https://www.regeringen.se/pressmeddelanden/2024/11/utredning-foreslar-starkt-skydd-for-personuppgifter-som-offentliggors-i-soktjanster/ https://www.regeringen.se/pressmeddelanden/2024/11/utredning... Not sure what the current status is.
- heraldgeezer 7mo ago[flagged]
- deaux 7mo ago> You criticize these websites when they affect minorities, but you use them yourself to look up men. That seems inconsistent. This is very close to the "Yet you participate in society, how curious" mean, especially since they're implying they would vote in favor of a law that changes it so that the data is no longer public in the same manner. But then your comment history reveals enough about your intent.
- 7mo ago
- kivle 7mo agoWe're so open, we even leak our government source code _ourselves_ https://github.com/navikt https://github.com/navikt
- valzam 7mo agoUff, COBOL written in Norwegian, talk about a narrow target to hit for hiring :)
- scottyah 7mo agoWho needs a Jones Act when you can have processes like these?
- deepsun 7mo agoI see mostly Java/Kotlin and Maven. Pretty modern stack. I would start a government service using those today.
- kivle 7mo agoHe is probably talking about this repo: https://github.com/navikt/DSF https://github.com/navikt/DSF Description translated: > This system was one of the oldest IT systems in NAV, and ran in production for 51 years, from when the National Insurance Scheme was introduced in 1967. In January 2018, Presys was put into production, which together with Pesys became the successor to DSF. At that point, DSF was also shut down. The system is written in PL/I. It's like the Apollo 11 code, but for social services.
- skissane 7mo agoMostly PL/I but a few files of COBOL too, e.g. https://github.com/navikt/DSF/blob/main/src/GML/FO04D1X1.cobol https://github.com/navikt/DSF/blob/main/src/GML/FO04D1X1.cob...
- ivell 7mo agoHow do they have handle identity thefts, spams, etc.? There are so many ways to misuse these data. Are the residents not concerned about this?
- boxed 7mo agoIt's just a unique ID of a person, it's not a password. I don't see how you can be confused by this.
- bondarchuk 7mo agoIt's also "anyone's brokerage account holdings, addresses, phone numbers" according to the comment that this subthread of the conversation is about.
- SiempreViernes 7mo agoIt only gives read permissions, to make any changes requires a password.
- deleted 7mo ago[deleted]
- boxed 7mo agoSo?
- ROllerozxa 7mo ago> How do they handle identity thefts By just accepting it as a normal fact of life that you will have some random stuff ordered in your name sooner or later with an invoice you'll have to dispute. Happened to a relative of mine, police do not care unless they order things above a certain value, without a police report you cannot get free ID protection, and then you'll have to sit for a long time in phone queues trying to cancel a subscription for a streaming service or whatever they ordered while get thrown around by support reps who go "you SURE you or someone in your family didn't order this?"
- deleted 7mo ago[deleted]
- designerarvid 7mo agoAll email conversations in Swedish public institutions are basically a public act and any citizen can request an extract of them.
- gwerbin 7mo agoOut of curiosity how do you authenticate yourself with government services and finance companies and such? The reason the SSN is considered private is because it's used for authentication. Usually an SSN + one or two pieces of trivially obtainable information is enough to sign up for just about anything in somebody else's name, unless physical documents are required as in the case of a passport.
- modin 7mo agoWith cryptographic keys, normally stored on a smartphone. BankID[0] is the most common solution, but there are others. I personally use biometric 2fa to log in, and PIN to sign contracts or pay. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BankID_(Sweden) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BankID_(Sweden)
- pastage 7mo agoIn Sweden the most useful and supported way means that you need this. 1. An identification approved by the EU. You get this from the national Police. (A government agency) 2. An SSN which is your birthday and four extea digits. E.g. 1212121212 is a valid "PNR", you get this from the Tax agency 3. A bank account (you need 1 and 2) 4. A patched Android or iPhone. 5. The BankID a app from a company owner by the banks in Sweden. 6. A Certificate downloaded from your bank to you BankID App 7. A PIN to Protect the key in you BankID App. 8. Normal internet connection. 9. A camera on your phone to read QR code on Service Provider webpage for session initionation When you sign something the app will send lots of metadata to "the Identity Provider" (BankId), e.g. how much root you have on your phone, if you run known malware, your current ip, and your phone HW info. This is used to calculate a score that you as a "service provider" (i.e. banks, government, companies) can choose to ignore (they usually do) When you as a Customer either sign in or sign you will see a document that you sign maybe "I give you 100SEK", and who you sign that to. You enter you pin or use biometric to aprove. (Was this better than an LLM.. Yes)
- Saline9515 7mo agoWhat's the point of making public how much each person owns? Aside from making you a prime target for kidnappings and targeted advertising?
- kalleboo 7mo agoTax data is government data. Government data is public data. Instead of asking "what's the reason for making something public" the question is "what's the reason for making a carveout for some specific data to make it secret"
- Saline9515 7mo agoGovernment data about private individuals can be considered as private, for privacy reasons. If the government knows that I have a mental disability, should everyone know about it, so they can discriminate me accordingly? What kind of dystopian view of the world is this? Or, if I own crypto, why should the government facilitate the work for criminals?
- 1718627440 7mo agoThe Government IS the public. I agree that the public shouldn't necessarily know about your mental disabilities, but then you just shouldn't give this information to the government.
- Saline9515 7mo agoGiving this information to the government is needed to get either financial help, or just a card to justify accommodations. But yeah, let's create second class citizens out of disabled people, great idea, very "scandinavian" indeed. At least they stopped sterilizing them.
- 1718627440 7mo ago> Giving this information to the government is needed to get either financial help, or just a card to justify accommodations. But maybe that shouldn't be necessary? It could also remain with the doctor, who then just approves that you should be eligible for financial help. > But yeah, let's create second class citizens out of disabled people, great idea You are fighting strawmen.
- SoftTalker 7mo agoThe US used to be more this way. Not brokerage accounts as far as I recall, but whether you own a house, how much you paid for it, your address, phone number, even your SSN didn't used to be considered very private, people had it printed on their personal checks, and schools used it as a student ID number. Newspapers used to publish hospital admissions and discharges, nothing medical but names and dates. Probably a lot of other stuff I'm forgetting.
- romanhn 7mo agoLet's not forget white pages, those door stopper telephone books containing everyone's name, phone and address that everyone had (along with yellow pages for business listings).
- freakynit 7mo agoIs this due to how high-trust societies work, or is it something else?