4 ms·

> My stance is that if somebody is a minor, his/her/their parents/tutors/legal guardian are responsible for what they can/cannot do online As a parent, sure, t

by tasuki 7mo ago

> My stance is that if somebody is a minor, his/her/their parents/tutors/legal guardian are responsible for what they can/cannot do online As a parent, sure, that is my stance as well. What... what other stances are there even? How would they work?

Markoff 7mo ago
ignore parent, outsource parenting to gov verification authority TBH many parents done exactly that by giving phones/tablet already to kids in strollers
- graemep 7mo ago
  The latter is true, but we cannot regulate the vast majority of parents on the basis of the worst.
pjc50 7mo ago
The steelman argument is that parents are not necessarily up to date on the technology, and cannot reasonably be expected to supervise teenagers 24/7 up to the age of 18. Compare movie ratings or alcohol laws, for example: there's a non-parental obligation on third parties not to provide alcohol to children or let them in to R18 showings. But the implementation matters, and almost all of these bills internationally are being done in bad faith by coordinated big-money groups against technologically illiterate and reactionary populist governments. (if we really want to get into an argument, there's what the UK calls "Gillick competence": the ability of children to seek medical treatment without the knowledge and against the will of their parents)
- _heimdall 7mo ago
  That steelman still stands on a core assumption that its both the state's responsibility and right to step in and parent on everyone's behalf. Maybe a majority of people today agree with that, but I know I don't and I never hear that assumption debated directly.
  - edgyquant 7mo ago
    Then frankly you haven’t seen many debates around age verification as it’s the main thing discussed every time it’s brought up
    - _heimdall 7mo ago
      You are correct, I didn't pay close attention to any EU debates that may have happened, I haven't lived there in years. In the US I haven't seen much debate at all, regardless of the bill really we don't seem to have leaders openly and honestly debate anything.
  - gzread 7mo ago
    The point of having a state at all is to create a framework where people are set up to succeed.
    - heavyset_go 7mo ago
      Everyone shouldn't have to lose their privacy just because you're too lazy to use parental controls or give your kids devices that are made for children.
      - gzread 7mo ago
        Entering your child's age when you create their user account is a loss of privacy?
        PeterisP 7mo ago
        The current bills (e.g. NY one at https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/bills/2025/S8102/amendment/A https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/bills/2025/S8102/amendm... ) require age assurance that goes beyond mere assertions, so when creating your (adult) user account it would be required to give away your privacy to prove your age - if you can't implement a way for anonymous/pseudonymous people to verify that they indeed are adults (and not kids claiming to be so), these bills prohibit you to manufacture internet-connected systems that can be used by anonymous/pseudonymous users.
- graemep 7mo ago
  In the UK parents can give children alcohol below the age of 18. parents get to make the final decision at home so I do not think its really comparable. I would personally favour allowing parents to buy drinks for children below the current limits (18 without a meal, 16 for wine, beer and cider with a meal). The alternative to this is empowering parents by regulating SIM cards (child safe cards already exist) and allowing parents to control internet connectivity either through the ISP or at the router - far better than regulating general purpose devices. The devices come with sensible defaults that parents can change.
  - Mchat22 7mo ago
    Suggesting that regulating ISPs or SIM cards or even public WiFi is an alternative to the OSA or age and identity verification is ignoring the reality that mandatory filtering of internet connections has been a legal requirement for a very long time now, and it has been 'voluntary' (by the ISPs themselves, opt-out by customers, pushed on by Cameron) for even longer. It is not a new or novel concept. There are legal adults taking part in these conversations that are simply too young to have ever experienced internet connections that weren't restricted and filtered mandated by legislation, and they would have been teenagers that were old enough to have a say in the conversation when the Conservatives were debating the OSA in parliament. Mobile internet connections have been filtered since 2004 even, so it's entirely likely that this would also be true for some people that are pushing 30 today. The debate on whether it's appropriate for internet filters to block access to Childline, the NSPCC, the Police, the BBC, Parliament, etc, is 15 years old at this point. Fifteen. The false dichotomy that exists between the entirely authoritarian measures of the OSA and the still fairly authoritarian measures of mandatory filtering serves only the interests of borderline monopolistic American tech companies who are in a position to weather such regulations as they stifle and snuff out any possibility of a less harmful web ecosystem, and people will cheer it on as they believe the social media platforms they blame for causing harm will themselves be harmed by the very laws they are writing. The real alternative is not having mandatory filtering but instead voluntary filtering by the parents themselves, which is what everybody seems to think they are arguing for, and that conversation is long since dead. It is entirely beside the point, but contrast it with alcohol laws. The UK is one of the few countries in Europe that has consumption laws both in private(+) and in public, whereas half of Europe only has consumption laws in public while the other half has no consumption laws in either private or public. America on the other hand has many states that prohibit under-21s from drinking alcohol even in private. A better comparison may be content ratings, which are largely entirely voluntary and not a legal requirement. (+) It's 5+ so there may as well be no laws on private consumption.
edgyquant 7mo ago
The other stance is that most parents are not capable of winning a battle against tech giants for the mind of their children, just as parents were not capable of winning this fight with tobacco and alcohol companies.
- heavyset_go 7mo ago
  The tech giants want this. They drafted the bill. They paid tens of millions of dollars to promote it. Think about that for a minute.
  - hackinthebochs 7mo ago
    They want it because it absolves them of responsibility for what their app does to kids. They can then just point to the existence of an already working mechanism for parents to intervene. The alternative would be for each app to implement stringent age verification or redesign itself to avoid addictive patterns. Neither option is good for their earnings.
- duskdozer 7mo ago
  If this had anything to do with reigning in tech giants, it would be done for adults as well, without restricting anyone's rights (well, aside from the people-corporations' of course). The issues are the manipulative algorithmic datafeeds, advertising, and datamining. Age verification does nothing for any of this and only provides the tech giants and governments the means to secure even more control over people.

by tasuki 7mo ago

Markoff 7mo ago

ignore parent, outsource parenting to gov verification authority TBH many parents done exactly that by giving phones/tablet already to kids in strollers

graemep 7mo ago
The latter is true, but we cannot regulate the vast majority of parents on the basis of the worst.

pjc50 7mo ago

The steelman argument is that parents are not necessarily up to date on the technology, and cannot reasonably be expected to supervise teenagers 24/7 up to the age of 18. Compare movie ratings or alcohol laws, for example: there's a non-parental obligation on third parties not to provide alcohol to children or let them in to R18 showings. But the implementation matters, and almost all of these bills internationally are being done in bad faith by coordinated big-money groups against technologically illiterate and reactionary populist governments. (if we really want to get into an argument, there's what the UK calls "Gillick competence": the ability of children to seek medical treatment without the knowledge and against the will of their parents)

_heimdall 7mo ago
That steelman still stands on a core assumption that its both the state's responsibility and right to step in and parent on everyone's behalf. Maybe a majority of people today agree with that, but I know I don't and I never hear that assumption debated directly.
- edgyquant 7mo ago
  Then frankly you haven’t seen many debates around age verification as it’s the main thing discussed every time it’s brought up
  - _heimdall 7mo ago
    You are correct, I didn't pay close attention to any EU debates that may have happened, I haven't lived there in years. In the US I haven't seen much debate at all, regardless of the bill really we don't seem to have leaders openly and honestly debate anything.
- gzread 7mo ago
  The point of having a state at all is to create a framework where people are set up to succeed.
  - heavyset_go 7mo ago
    Everyone shouldn't have to lose their privacy just because you're too lazy to use parental controls or give your kids devices that are made for children.
    - gzread 7mo ago
      Entering your child's age when you create their user account is a loss of privacy?
      - PeterisP 7mo ago
        The current bills (e.g. NY one at https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/bills/2025/S8102/amendment/A https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/bills/2025/S8102/amendm... ) require age assurance that goes beyond mere assertions, so when creating your (adult) user account it would be required to give away your privacy to prove your age - if you can't implement a way for anonymous/pseudonymous people to verify that they indeed are adults (and not kids claiming to be so), these bills prohibit you to manufacture internet-connected systems that can be used by anonymous/pseudonymous users.
graemep 7mo ago
In the UK parents can give children alcohol below the age of 18. parents get to make the final decision at home so I do not think its really comparable. I would personally favour allowing parents to buy drinks for children below the current limits (18 without a meal, 16 for wine, beer and cider with a meal). The alternative to this is empowering parents by regulating SIM cards (child safe cards already exist) and allowing parents to control internet connectivity either through the ISP or at the router - far better than regulating general purpose devices. The devices come with sensible defaults that parents can change.
- Mchat22 7mo ago
  Suggesting that regulating ISPs or SIM cards or even public WiFi is an alternative to the OSA or age and identity verification is ignoring the reality that mandatory filtering of internet connections has been a legal requirement for a very long time now, and it has been 'voluntary' (by the ISPs themselves, opt-out by customers, pushed on by Cameron) for even longer. It is not a new or novel concept. There are legal adults taking part in these conversations that are simply too young to have ever experienced internet connections that weren't restricted and filtered mandated by legislation, and they would have been teenagers that were old enough to have a say in the conversation when the Conservatives were debating the OSA in parliament. Mobile internet connections have been filtered since 2004 even, so it's entirely likely that this would also be true for some people that are pushing 30 today. The debate on whether it's appropriate for internet filters to block access to Childline, the NSPCC, the Police, the BBC, Parliament, etc, is 15 years old at this point. Fifteen. The false dichotomy that exists between the entirely authoritarian measures of the OSA and the still fairly authoritarian measures of mandatory filtering serves only the interests of borderline monopolistic American tech companies who are in a position to weather such regulations as they stifle and snuff out any possibility of a less harmful web ecosystem, and people will cheer it on as they believe the social media platforms they blame for causing harm will themselves be harmed by the very laws they are writing. The real alternative is not having mandatory filtering but instead voluntary filtering by the parents themselves, which is what everybody seems to think they are arguing for, and that conversation is long since dead. It is entirely beside the point, but contrast it with alcohol laws. The UK is one of the few countries in Europe that has consumption laws both in private(+) and in public, whereas half of Europe only has consumption laws in public while the other half has no consumption laws in either private or public. America on the other hand has many states that prohibit under-21s from drinking alcohol even in private. A better comparison may be content ratings, which are largely entirely voluntary and not a legal requirement. (+) It's 5+ so there may as well be no laws on private consumption.

edgyquant 7mo ago

The other stance is that most parents are not capable of winning a battle against tech giants for the mind of their children, just as parents were not capable of winning this fight with tobacco and alcohol companies.

heavyset_go 7mo ago
The tech giants want this. They drafted the bill. They paid tens of millions of dollars to promote it. Think about that for a minute.
- hackinthebochs 7mo ago
  They want it because it absolves them of responsibility for what their app does to kids. They can then just point to the existence of an already working mechanism for parents to intervene. The alternative would be for each app to implement stringent age verification or redesign itself to avoid addictive patterns. Neither option is good for their earnings.
duskdozer 7mo ago
If this had anything to do with reigning in tech giants, it would be done for adults as well, without restricting anyone's rights (well, aside from the people-corporations' of course). The issues are the manipulative algorithmic datafeeds, advertising, and datamining. Age verification does nothing for any of this and only provides the tech giants and governments the means to secure even more control over people.