3 ms·

Should America do this to every aspiring nuclear nation? All the time?

tartuffe78 7mo ago
Yes bombing schools, cities, and countries into broken states ruled by warring factions is the only way to achieve peace.
- DoctorOetker 7mo ago
  At the time of the bombing that school was not on Open Street Map, instead the military base (where the school was installed!) had been added a bit more than 5 years ago. Obviously international law requires targets to be thoroughly verified, which obviously didn't happen. I am not blaming OSM for what happened, but just to avoid having a great FOSS project being used for unverified targetting: perhaps we should have stronger requests for verification for military domains around the world. OSM could contact the governments and ask if any non-military entities reside in that base. If the government refuses to confirm or deny, or just pretend there is no school, then OSM can bring this response up at a later date.
  - bdangubic 7mo ago
    > ... was not on Open Street Map Would expect nothing less of the current administration than to use Open Street Map in their killing campaign (maybe Apple Maps should have been cross-checked)
    - DoctorOetker 7mo ago
      Hey, I typically avoid the use of proprietary maps, but I am very interested in how Apple Maps knew there was a school before the bombing. I am also interested in seeing verifiable proof that Apple Maps displayed a school there before the attack occured, and I certainly agree all available maps should have been checked, including past satellite imagery, which surely would have betrayed the presence of large amounts of children (from shadow lengths). As I said before, what happened there was inexcusable. What is known is that Israel and USA divided the targets according to respective materiel proximity, which MUST mean that a common list of targets would have been maintained and then divided by proximity / weapon range. This means that in theory Israel could have selected the target, just like USA may have selected certain more northern targets, and then misplaced trust could have enabled blindly bombing a target selected by the other nation state. In other words I certainly see it as a possibility that Israel intentionally shared this target pretending not to know about the girls school. They certainly can be suspected of having a motive: revenge for the killings of their children on the music festival. The genocide in Gaza apparently doesn't sufficiently quench their thirst for revenge, especially since everyone knows Hamas is effectively Iran-in-Gaza. From the perspective of Israel it's also an excellent way to ensure sustained conflict between Iran and the USA, and thus force the USA to continue contributing firepower in this escalation. IF the above were the case, in my opinion the best move for the USA is to acknowledge as quickly as possible that while they bombed the target location, that this target selection was by Israel.
wolvoleo 7mo ago
With many they can't. They didn't do it to North Korea because that would involve China and cause WWIII and besides, they would level Seoul with conventional artillery. But really, North Korea seems to be more quiet since they have them. I think the world would have been less safe if they'd been attacked.
- DoctorOetker 7mo ago
  I have seen no convincing evidence that NK has miniaturized nuclear weapons sufficiently to put in on an ICBM, nor have I seen convincing evidence that they can handle the complexities of re-entry. If they want to be taken seriously they should give actual demonstrations instead of posturing. You know, like how US / Russia used to allow each other to inspect each others submarines, count warheads, etc. NK can feign concern like revealing trajectory choices, radar signatures etc. but those can all be addressed: stick a big retroreflector on it that drowns out any actual radar signature, use a ridiculous trajectory, that still puts a representative heat and temperature burden on the re-entry vehicle, and so on and so on. It seems NK doesn't want to be taken seriously (and the same for Israel when it comes to nuclear weapons to be honest).
  - wolvoleo 7mo ago
    Oh I'd take them seriously alright. All they have to do is put one inside a ship and sail it inside a harbour. Or in the back of a semi. That's a risk not worth taking. They have exploded several, they're a credible threat now. But they only seem to be interested in using it as a deterrent, which is the sane choice given mutually assured destruction. They won't use them offensively as they'll just get wiped out. If they had been attacked before building them I'm sure many people in Seoul would have died from artillery attacks and perhaps China would have got into a hot war with the US. I think we're better off that it didn't. I'm pretty sure Iran would have done the same thing.. They're pretty sane too. Evil and terrible murderers to their citizens but they're not going to play nuclear chicken with a thousand times more powerful enemy.

Yes bombing schools, cities, and countries into broken states ruled by warring factions is the only way to achieve peace.

DoctorOetker 7mo ago
At the time of the bombing that school was not on Open Street Map, instead the military base (where the school was installed!) had been added a bit more than 5 years ago. Obviously international law requires targets to be thoroughly verified, which obviously didn't happen. I am not blaming OSM for what happened, but just to avoid having a great FOSS project being used for unverified targetting: perhaps we should have stronger requests for verification for military domains around the world. OSM could contact the governments and ask if any non-military entities reside in that base. If the government refuses to confirm or deny, or just pretend there is no school, then OSM can bring this response up at a later date.
- bdangubic 7mo ago
  > ... was not on Open Street Map Would expect nothing less of the current administration than to use Open Street Map in their killing campaign (maybe Apple Maps should have been cross-checked)
  - DoctorOetker 7mo ago
    Hey, I typically avoid the use of proprietary maps, but I am very interested in how Apple Maps knew there was a school before the bombing. I am also interested in seeing verifiable proof that Apple Maps displayed a school there before the attack occured, and I certainly agree all available maps should have been checked, including past satellite imagery, which surely would have betrayed the presence of large amounts of children (from shadow lengths). As I said before, what happened there was inexcusable. What is known is that Israel and USA divided the targets according to respective materiel proximity, which MUST mean that a common list of targets would have been maintained and then divided by proximity / weapon range. This means that in theory Israel could have selected the target, just like USA may have selected certain more northern targets, and then misplaced trust could have enabled blindly bombing a target selected by the other nation state. In other words I certainly see it as a possibility that Israel intentionally shared this target pretending not to know about the girls school. They certainly can be suspected of having a motive: revenge for the killings of their children on the music festival. The genocide in Gaza apparently doesn't sufficiently quench their thirst for revenge, especially since everyone knows Hamas is effectively Iran-in-Gaza. From the perspective of Israel it's also an excellent way to ensure sustained conflict between Iran and the USA, and thus force the USA to continue contributing firepower in this escalation. IF the above were the case, in my opinion the best move for the USA is to acknowledge as quickly as possible that while they bombed the target location, that this target selection was by Israel.

wolvoleo 7mo ago

With many they can't. They didn't do it to North Korea because that would involve China and cause WWIII and besides, they would level Seoul with conventional artillery. But really, North Korea seems to be more quiet since they have them. I think the world would have been less safe if they'd been attacked.

DoctorOetker 7mo ago
I have seen no convincing evidence that NK has miniaturized nuclear weapons sufficiently to put in on an ICBM, nor have I seen convincing evidence that they can handle the complexities of re-entry. If they want to be taken seriously they should give actual demonstrations instead of posturing. You know, like how US / Russia used to allow each other to inspect each others submarines, count warheads, etc. NK can feign concern like revealing trajectory choices, radar signatures etc. but those can all be addressed: stick a big retroreflector on it that drowns out any actual radar signature, use a ridiculous trajectory, that still puts a representative heat and temperature burden on the re-entry vehicle, and so on and so on. It seems NK doesn't want to be taken seriously (and the same for Israel when it comes to nuclear weapons to be honest).
- wolvoleo 7mo ago
  Oh I'd take them seriously alright. All they have to do is put one inside a ship and sail it inside a harbour. Or in the back of a semi. That's a risk not worth taking. They have exploded several, they're a credible threat now. But they only seem to be interested in using it as a deterrent, which is the sane choice given mutually assured destruction. They won't use them offensively as they'll just get wiped out. If they had been attacked before building them I'm sure many people in Seoul would have died from artillery attacks and perhaps China would have got into a hot war with the US. I think we're better off that it didn't. I'm pretty sure Iran would have done the same thing.. They're pretty sane too. Evil and terrible murderers to their citizens but they're not going to play nuclear chicken with a thousand times more powerful enemy.