6 ms·

Stories like this probably scare some people off from electronic voting but I don't think this is that big of a deal. When we finish voting operations in my are

by ericmay 8mo ago

Stories like this probably scare some people off from electronic voting but I don't think this is that big of a deal. When we finish voting operations in my area we load the ballots up on someone's personal vehicle and they take them down, securely, to where they need to go. That vehicle could get blown up and those ballots could be gone, though I think we could still get a record of the results. That being said for the United States, I am in favor of in-person voting requiring proof of citizenship, and making "voting day" a paid national holiday. Not so much for technical or efficiency reasons but for social reasons. I'd argue it should be mandatory but I don't think we should force people to do anything we don't have to force them to do, and I'm not sure we want disinterested people voting anyway. Exercising democracy, requiring people to put in a minimal amount of thought and effort goes a long way. It should be a celebratory day with cookies and apple pie and free beer for all. Not some cold, AI-riddled, stay in your house and never meet your neighbors, clicking a few buttons to accept the Terms of Democracy process. I know there's a lot of discussion points around "efficiency" or "cost" or "accessibility" or how difficult it supposedly is to have an ID (which is weird when you look at how other countries run elections) and there are certainly things to discuss there, but by and large I think the continued digitalization and alienation of Americans is a much worse problem that can be addressed with more in-person activities and participation in society. We're losing too many touchpoints with reality.

phailhaus 8mo ago
Voter registration already requires proof of citizenship. What is the point of requiring that high bar of proof on the day of voting as well?
- nomorewords 8mo ago
  Why have voter registration?
  - ericmay 8mo ago
    In the United States at least, voter registration will include your place of residence which will place you in a specific precinct. In other words: "I am so and so, and I live here. Votes that affect this area include me, and I get a say." When voters are voting for things, for example a tax levy to fund a new school, or for who will be their state or federal congressional representatives, it's important that the voters in that school district or in that congressional district are the ones voting for their representatives or for the bills or initiatives that affect them. This isn't quite as important for national elections, gubernatorial races, or for the senate at the federal level, but it's obviously incredibly important the more local you get. Without voter registration, that model breaks down. Even mundane things like how much staff and equipment should be at a polling location is not easy to figure out when you don't know how many voters you'll have. If you haven't worked as a poll worker it's really enlightening to learn about how the process works and a great way to meet your neighbors.
  - smw 8mo ago
    One of the issues is that the US, unlike most of Europe, for example, doesn't require registering your address with your locality or police when you move.
- grosswait 8mo ago
  How is it a high bar of proof if it is already required? Edit: and already met
  - stvltvs 8mo ago
    It's not a requirement in most places. This would be a significant change in practice.
  - phailhaus 8mo ago
    How many documents can be used to prove your citizenship? How many times do people have to go back to the DMV because they forgot something or another? Now imagine that everyone has one shot to get that right on voting day.
    - grosswait 8mo ago
      That’s not how this would work in practice. You get an id that proves citizenship once. So one day at the dmv, Not every Election Day.
- tossstone 8mo ago
  I've lived in 3 states and none of them have required proof of citizenship to register to vote. You basically check a box that acknowledges that you are a US Citizen with the right to vote and that illegal registration carries penalties.
- Auracle 8mo ago
  In my state it doesn’t require that. You just need someone else that’s registered the vouch for you. A registered person can vouch for up to 8 people: https://www.sos.mn.gov/elections-voting/register-to-vote/register-on-election-day/ https://www.sos.mn.gov/elections-voting/register-to-vote/reg...
Waterluvian 8mo ago
I think a lot of what you argue might make sense for American elections where you're voting for an absolutely ridiculous number of things. I'm not sure how it is in Switzerland, but in Canada I will vote for maybe three candidates in five years. And I don't mean three visits to the polls (though it's usually that), I mean three actual checkbox ticks for people to count. They're paper ballots and the counting is done that night. I think if we were stuck voting for like forty different races every two years it would be a very different story and a lot of what you say would resonate with me more. Except the voter registration stuff. We're pretty flexible about registration up here and it works. My wife one year showed up with some mail that had her name/address, and me vouching for her. Though I think a lot of the luxuries of democracy are most easily enjoyed with a trusting, cooperative culture that isn't constantly wound up about being cheated by the others.
- soco 8mo ago
  In Switzerland I voted last week for 5 election lists and 6 different topics. This happens at least 4 times a year, but I don't call it "ridiculous number of things".
  - Waterluvian 8mo ago
    For the voter that may not be a ton of work. I imagine to count all those votes you need technology and not just the election workers at each station? Here we have kept it dead simple. They’re all just hand counted over a few hours.
    - brainwad 8mo ago
      No, they count them by hand. Each issue/office has a separate ballot paper, so it can be done in parallel with sufficient number of counting personnel. It takes a couple of hours, sometimes more in big districts in cities but usually they are done by 6pm at the latest after starting at noon.
stetrain 8mo ago
> That being said, I am in favor of in-person voting requiring proof of citizenship I think this is fine if it also then means that obtaining a qualifying ID is treated as a no-cost and highly-accessible right for all citizens. This is where such arguments tend to get stuck in the US. If you require proof of citizenship, but also have places where getting to a government office to get such an ID is difficult or expensive, then you are effectively restricting voting access for citizens. A measure to place stricter qualifications on voting access needs to also carefully consider and account for providing access to all citizens. The US is a geographically very large place with worse public transportation options compared to many other countries, and with that comes differences in economic and accessibility considerations for things like "Just go to your county's office and get a qualifying ID."
- Auracle 8mo ago
  Pretty much every bill that has ever been put forward for needing an ID to vote has had a provision for free IDs. That’s not where things get caught up. Also, it’s a pretty silly thing anyways. I don’t even drink and I still need my driver’s license quite a few times every year.
  - stetrain 8mo ago
    Free and accessible are not the same thing. And a driver's license is not necessarily proof of citizenship.
    - delecti 8mo ago
      Yep. And in fact there's been a ton of resistance for 20 years to rolling out an alternate form of driver's license which does act as proof of citizenship. See the REAL ID, which even now is only kinda a requirement to fly domestically.
      - mothballed 8mo ago
        .gov own court filings have argued Real ID isn't a reliable proof of citizenship and have refused to accept it as such. "...based on HSI Special Agent training and experience, REAL ID can be unreliable to confirm U.S. citizenship." https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.alsd.76579/gov.uscourts.alsd.76579.44.1.pdf https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.alsd.76...
lolc 8mo ago
Please realize that Switzerland holds many votes per year. There is no big voting day where I have to go somewhere. I could go cast my ballot in person, but I can also fill out and send in my ballot in advance. That is entirely routine and part of my day like other paperwork. The problem with e-voting is that it is much harder to validate. My paper ballot rests at a community building where it will be counted on the day of the vote. I can understand the process from start to finish in physical terms. Throw in a USB stick and anything could happen. It is possible we will never know what went wrong here.
RandomLensman 8mo ago
What would constitute a "proof of citizenship"? Would a passport be enough, for example?
rhcom2 8mo ago
> voting requiring proof of citizenship Isn't this just a solution in search of a problem though? Multiple investigations have discovered absolutely minuscule amount of non-citizen voting in US elections. It's something that seems reasonable on its face but lacks any purpose and comes with an ulterior motive that it is part of the made up GOP talking points of a "stolen election" and "illegals voting".
expedition32 8mo ago
I used to be really angry that we still vote with paper and red pencil. The Netherlands is ultra digital after all! But then they showed how easy it is to hack and we live in a world with evil countries like the US, China and Russia who want to destroy our way of life.
amanaplanacanal 8mo ago
I would guess most people don't have a proof of citizenship handy. This would get even worse if the effort to get rid of birthright citizenship succeeds, how would you even prove you are a citizen? This would be less of a problem if the US had some sort of national ID issued by right, but we don't, and the same people pushing for requiring ID for voting would be against creating one. They hate the idea of a national ID. My state does all elections by mail now. How would this even work? All this is on top of the fact that elections are run by the states, not the national government. Would such a law even be constitutional?
- pseudalopex 8mo ago
  > My state does all elections by mail now. How would this even work? Trump told Congress to ban most mail ballots. > All this is on top of the fact that elections are run by the states, not the national government. Would such a law even be constitutional? Experts said no. But this Supreme Court surprised experts before. And the constitution said Congress could decide elections of Congress. They have the power. They need an explanation enough people would accept.
  - natebc 8mo ago
    It's not really up to Trump or Congress though is it? Elections are run by the several states.
    - pseudalopex 8mo ago
      I edited my comment. But before you replied I thought. Congress can decide elections of Congress.
      - natebc 8mo ago
        Ah, yeah, I see now that I've refreshed. Yes, it will get tricky with the current Supremes. Hopefully the signs we're seeing around Obstruction and Contempt in the federal courts lately indicate the _maybe_ the Judiciary is finding it's backbone. I don't have much hope for Congress doing the same.
zer00eyz 8mo ago
>> requiring proof of citizenship Go and try to figure out how to do this from scratch. Imagine your house burned down and you need to start with "nothing". If your parents are still alive you can use them to bootstrap the process of getting those vital documents (or if you're married that can be another semi viable path). Pitty if you don't have those resources. Furthermore it might get complicated for any partner who adopts their other partners last name (were talking about getting the documents, before you can get some sort of verified ID). The reality is we don't have a lot of instances of "voter fraud" committed by people who aren't citizens (see: https://www.facebook.com/Louisianasos/posts/secretary-of-state-nancy-landry-announced-the-preliminary-results-of-an-ongoing-/1271219118366334/ https://www.facebook.com/Louisianasos/posts/secretary-of-sta... as an example) . And the amount of voter fraud we do have is very small (and ironically committed by citizens see https://www.brookings.edu/articles/how-widespread-is-election-fraud-in-the-united-states-not-very/ https://www.brookings.edu/articles/how-widespread-is-electio... for some examples). > I am in favor of in-person voting Again, the size and dispersion of the American population makes this odious. Dense urban areas will face lines (they already do) and many of them (Chicago) have moved to early voting because spreading things out over many days is just more effective. Meanwhile places like Montana (where population density is in people per square mile) make travel to a location burdensome. I get why you feel the way you do, but the data, the reality of America, makes what you desire unnecessary and impractical. Feelings are a terrible reason to erect this barrier when it makes little sense to do so.
kanbara 8mo ago
i don’t think that requiring in-person “ID”-proofed voting and removing mail-in ballots (which is the best part of voting in CA) does anything to bring people back to reality… Even if it were a holiday, people may not be able to travel or take time off from obligations. There’s no obligation to drive 2 hours to vote, to fly back if you work in another country, or to go get a new birth certificate because Real ID doesn’t prove citizenship even though you provide citizenship documents to it when you get one… I’ve heard of a lot of takes here about what we should do for voting to make it “more secure” but all of this is actually a solution for a problem we just don’t have.
ramon156 8mo ago
We should at least start with electronic voting to compare it against real voting. I know there have been more smaller local tests, but they are not comparable.
estebank 8mo ago
> That being said, I am in favor of in-person voting requiring proof of citizenship The appropriate time to verify citizenship is the one that already happens: during registration. Poll workers only need to verify who you are and that you're registered.
- drivebyhooting 8mo ago
  In my experience there was no verification other than verbally verbally confirming address and name.
  - estebank 8mo ago
    At https://covr.sos.ca.gov/ https://covr.sos.ca.gov/ I have to positively state that I am a US citizen an tie my name to a driver's license or SSN. Neither driver's license nor SSN confirm that one is a citizen (I had both before naturalizing), but both of them are tied to citizenship information in some database. I know I had to attend the Social Security offices in person to provide proof of my naturalization in order to receive an SSN card without the words "valid for work only with DHS authorisation".
nonameiguess 8mo ago
I'd agree in principle with your idea about proof of citizenship, but unfortunately the reality I experienced is I had a valid California driver's license with a Texas address because I had been in the military and California allowed that, but Texas changed their laws to require a Texas ID to vote, and subsequently they also closed 90% of the offices you have to go to to get an ID. Luckily, I knew about this way in advance, but it took 9 months to get an appointment, and when I got there, it required something like four different forms of proof. There were people in there who still lived with their parents who didn't have their own names on any bills bringing their parents in with them to vouch that they actually lived there, getting turned away and told to go fuck themselves. It was extremely transparent and obvious what the state was trying to do, not wanting young people and recent transplants to vote.
drdaeman 8mo ago
Instead of full e-voting I would love to see an additional scheme to a traditional paper ballot that allows for verification. Something like STAR-Vote or Scantegrity. Even if it’s flawed, it would be nice to run specifically because it doesn’t affect the elections but could produce useful insights. If it fails - nothing particularly bad happens, if it works - cool, we get extra assurances or maybe spot some fraud that we weren’t aware about. But there seems to be either no political will, or some issues with the practical implementations. There were some municipal experiments here and there, and then just… crickets. Anyone knows what happened to those efforts?
openasocket 8mo ago
Voter ID is often touted as an important part of election security, but when you look at the threat model of elections it just doesn't do much. Think about how you would try to cheat at an election. The common methods are things like ballot stuffing, throwing out votes, discouraging people from voting, etc. Examples include spreading disinformation about what day voting is happening, seizing ballot boxes and replacing them with forged ballots that favor your candidate, or calling in bomb threats to polling places. These are not prevented by voter ID requirements. The only thing voter ID prevents is voter impersonation. It prevents you from finding someone else's name and polling place, going there, pretending to be that person, and submitting a vote on their behalf. But that threat doesn't really scale. Even if you assume no one at the polling places notice you coming to vote over and over under different names, a single person could probably only do this a few dozen times on election day. To scale that you would need more people; and every person you add to the scheme increases the odds of someone slipping up or getting caught. But the real issue is if any of the people you are impersonating try to vote! While election officials don't record what people voted for, they do record who voted, and the ballot counting process will automatically note that people voted multiple times. So you would have to figure out some way to gather a database of a large number of people you know aren't going to vote, and get a bunch of people to turn up at a bunch of polling places under those names. It's just not practical to do, when elections are decided by thousands or tens of thousands of votes. > how difficult it supposedly is to have an ID (which is weird when you look at how other countries run elections) The devil is in the details. I don't trust that the groups drafting Voter ID legislation are doing so in good faith. For example, North Dakota passed a voter ID law years ago. It stated that you needed a valid state-issued ID that included a street address. Sounds fine, right? The problem is that most homes on Native American reservations don't actually have street addresses. Tribal members use P.O. boxes for mail, and that P.O. box is on their driver's licenses. This was brought up when the law was proposed, but it passed anyway. The Spirit Lake Nation and the Standing Rock Sioux tribes had to sue in federal court. They were eventually successful, but it took years, and in the meantime the 2018 midterms were held with many Native Americans literally unable to vote. See https://www.npr.org/2020/02/14/806083852/north-dakota-and-native-american-tribes-settle-voter-id-lawsuits https://www.npr.org/2020/02/14/806083852/north-dakota-and-na...
mulmen 8mo ago
> That being said for the United States, I am in favor of in-person voting requiring proof of citizenship Why? > I know there's a lot of discussion points around "efficiency" or "cost" or "accessibility" or how difficult it supposedly is to have an ID (which is weird when you look at how other countries run elections) How do other countries run elections to overcome their racially motivated systemic voter suppression? > and there are certainly things to discuss there This is a laughable understatement. > but by and large I think the continued digitalization and alienation of Americans is a much worse problem that can be addressed with more in-person activities and participation in society. I think this is naive. You are attempting to force an outcome without understanding the cause. Systemic racially motivated voter suppression is an undeniable reality in American politics. Voter ID is a clear example of exactly that. It is used to disenfranchise minority voters. This is clear established fact. There is zero evidence of any voter fraud happening that would be eliminated by additional voter ID. This is a serious topic that requires you educate yourself on reality. I suggest you take your advice above and touch reality, you are overly digitalized if you think voter ID has any merit at all.
deleted 8mo ago
[deleted]

by ericmay 8mo ago

phailhaus 8mo ago

Voter registration already requires proof of citizenship. What is the point of requiring that high bar of proof on the day of voting as well?

nomorewords 8mo ago
Why have voter registration?
- ericmay 8mo ago
  In the United States at least, voter registration will include your place of residence which will place you in a specific precinct. In other words: "I am so and so, and I live here. Votes that affect this area include me, and I get a say." When voters are voting for things, for example a tax levy to fund a new school, or for who will be their state or federal congressional representatives, it's important that the voters in that school district or in that congressional district are the ones voting for their representatives or for the bills or initiatives that affect them. This isn't quite as important for national elections, gubernatorial races, or for the senate at the federal level, but it's obviously incredibly important the more local you get. Without voter registration, that model breaks down. Even mundane things like how much staff and equipment should be at a polling location is not easy to figure out when you don't know how many voters you'll have. If you haven't worked as a poll worker it's really enlightening to learn about how the process works and a great way to meet your neighbors.
- smw 8mo ago
  One of the issues is that the US, unlike most of Europe, for example, doesn't require registering your address with your locality or police when you move.
grosswait 8mo ago
How is it a high bar of proof if it is already required? Edit: and already met
- stvltvs 8mo ago
  It's not a requirement in most places. This would be a significant change in practice.
- phailhaus 8mo ago
  How many documents can be used to prove your citizenship? How many times do people have to go back to the DMV because they forgot something or another? Now imagine that everyone has one shot to get that right on voting day.
  - grosswait 8mo ago
    That’s not how this would work in practice. You get an id that proves citizenship once. So one day at the dmv, Not every Election Day.
tossstone 8mo ago
I've lived in 3 states and none of them have required proof of citizenship to register to vote. You basically check a box that acknowledges that you are a US Citizen with the right to vote and that illegal registration carries penalties.
Auracle 8mo ago
In my state it doesn’t require that. You just need someone else that’s registered the vouch for you. A registered person can vouch for up to 8 people: https://www.sos.mn.gov/elections-voting/register-to-vote/register-on-election-day/ https://www.sos.mn.gov/elections-voting/register-to-vote/reg...

Waterluvian 8mo ago

I think a lot of what you argue might make sense for American elections where you're voting for an absolutely ridiculous number of things. I'm not sure how it is in Switzerland, but in Canada I will vote for maybe three candidates in five years. And I don't mean three visits to the polls (though it's usually that), I mean three actual checkbox ticks for people to count. They're paper ballots and the counting is done that night. I think if we were stuck voting for like forty different races every two years it would be a very different story and a lot of what you say would resonate with me more. Except the voter registration stuff. We're pretty flexible about registration up here and it works. My wife one year showed up with some mail that had her name/address, and me vouching for her. Though I think a lot of the luxuries of democracy are most easily enjoyed with a trusting, cooperative culture that isn't constantly wound up about being cheated by the others.

soco 8mo ago
In Switzerland I voted last week for 5 election lists and 6 different topics. This happens at least 4 times a year, but I don't call it "ridiculous number of things".
- Waterluvian 8mo ago
  For the voter that may not be a ton of work. I imagine to count all those votes you need technology and not just the election workers at each station? Here we have kept it dead simple. They’re all just hand counted over a few hours.
  - brainwad 8mo ago
    No, they count them by hand. Each issue/office has a separate ballot paper, so it can be done in parallel with sufficient number of counting personnel. It takes a couple of hours, sometimes more in big districts in cities but usually they are done by 6pm at the latest after starting at noon.

stetrain 8mo ago

> That being said, I am in favor of in-person voting requiring proof of citizenship I think this is fine if it also then means that obtaining a qualifying ID is treated as a no-cost and highly-accessible right for all citizens. This is where such arguments tend to get stuck in the US. If you require proof of citizenship, but also have places where getting to a government office to get such an ID is difficult or expensive, then you are effectively restricting voting access for citizens. A measure to place stricter qualifications on voting access needs to also carefully consider and account for providing access to all citizens. The US is a geographically very large place with worse public transportation options compared to many other countries, and with that comes differences in economic and accessibility considerations for things like "Just go to your county's office and get a qualifying ID."

Auracle 8mo ago
Pretty much every bill that has ever been put forward for needing an ID to vote has had a provision for free IDs. That’s not where things get caught up. Also, it’s a pretty silly thing anyways. I don’t even drink and I still need my driver’s license quite a few times every year.
- stetrain 8mo ago
  Free and accessible are not the same thing. And a driver's license is not necessarily proof of citizenship.
  - delecti 8mo ago
    Yep. And in fact there's been a ton of resistance for 20 years to rolling out an alternate form of driver's license which does act as proof of citizenship. See the REAL ID, which even now is only kinda a requirement to fly domestically.
    - mothballed 8mo ago
      .gov own court filings have argued Real ID isn't a reliable proof of citizenship and have refused to accept it as such. "...based on HSI Special Agent training and experience, REAL ID can be unreliable to confirm U.S. citizenship." https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.alsd.76579/gov.uscourts.alsd.76579.44.1.pdf https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.alsd.76...

lolc 8mo ago

Please realize that Switzerland holds many votes per year. There is no big voting day where I have to go somewhere. I could go cast my ballot in person, but I can also fill out and send in my ballot in advance. That is entirely routine and part of my day like other paperwork. The problem with e-voting is that it is much harder to validate. My paper ballot rests at a community building where it will be counted on the day of the vote. I can understand the process from start to finish in physical terms. Throw in a USB stick and anything could happen. It is possible we will never know what went wrong here.

RandomLensman 8mo ago

What would constitute a "proof of citizenship"? Would a passport be enough, for example?

rhcom2 8mo ago

> voting requiring proof of citizenship Isn't this just a solution in search of a problem though? Multiple investigations have discovered absolutely minuscule amount of non-citizen voting in US elections. It's something that seems reasonable on its face but lacks any purpose and comes with an ulterior motive that it is part of the made up GOP talking points of a "stolen election" and "illegals voting".

expedition32 8mo ago

I used to be really angry that we still vote with paper and red pencil. The Netherlands is ultra digital after all! But then they showed how easy it is to hack and we live in a world with evil countries like the US, China and Russia who want to destroy our way of life.

amanaplanacanal 8mo ago

I would guess most people don't have a proof of citizenship handy. This would get even worse if the effort to get rid of birthright citizenship succeeds, how would you even prove you are a citizen? This would be less of a problem if the US had some sort of national ID issued by right, but we don't, and the same people pushing for requiring ID for voting would be against creating one. They hate the idea of a national ID. My state does all elections by mail now. How would this even work? All this is on top of the fact that elections are run by the states, not the national government. Would such a law even be constitutional?

pseudalopex 8mo ago
> My state does all elections by mail now. How would this even work? Trump told Congress to ban most mail ballots. > All this is on top of the fact that elections are run by the states, not the national government. Would such a law even be constitutional? Experts said no. But this Supreme Court surprised experts before. And the constitution said Congress could decide elections of Congress. They have the power. They need an explanation enough people would accept.
- natebc 8mo ago
  It's not really up to Trump or Congress though is it? Elections are run by the several states.
  - pseudalopex 8mo ago
    I edited my comment. But before you replied I thought. Congress can decide elections of Congress.
    - natebc 8mo ago
      Ah, yeah, I see now that I've refreshed. Yes, it will get tricky with the current Supremes. Hopefully the signs we're seeing around Obstruction and Contempt in the federal courts lately indicate the _maybe_ the Judiciary is finding it's backbone. I don't have much hope for Congress doing the same.

zer00eyz 8mo ago

>> requiring proof of citizenship Go and try to figure out how to do this from scratch. Imagine your house burned down and you need to start with "nothing". If your parents are still alive you can use them to bootstrap the process of getting those vital documents (or if you're married that can be another semi viable path). Pitty if you don't have those resources. Furthermore it might get complicated for any partner who adopts their other partners last name (were talking about getting the documents, before you can get some sort of verified ID). The reality is we don't have a lot of instances of "voter fraud" committed by people who aren't citizens (see: https://www.facebook.com/Louisianasos/posts/secretary-of-state-nancy-landry-announced-the-preliminary-results-of-an-ongoing-/1271219118366334/ https://www.facebook.com/Louisianasos/posts/secretary-of-sta... as an example) . And the amount of voter fraud we do have is very small (and ironically committed by citizens see https://www.brookings.edu/articles/how-widespread-is-election-fraud-in-the-united-states-not-very/ https://www.brookings.edu/articles/how-widespread-is-electio... for some examples). > I am in favor of in-person voting Again, the size and dispersion of the American population makes this odious. Dense urban areas will face lines (they already do) and many of them (Chicago) have moved to early voting because spreading things out over many days is just more effective. Meanwhile places like Montana (where population density is in people per square mile) make travel to a location burdensome. I get why you feel the way you do, but the data, the reality of America, makes what you desire unnecessary and impractical. Feelings are a terrible reason to erect this barrier when it makes little sense to do so.

kanbara 8mo ago

i don’t think that requiring in-person “ID”-proofed voting and removing mail-in ballots (which is the best part of voting in CA) does anything to bring people back to reality… Even if it were a holiday, people may not be able to travel or take time off from obligations. There’s no obligation to drive 2 hours to vote, to fly back if you work in another country, or to go get a new birth certificate because Real ID doesn’t prove citizenship even though you provide citizenship documents to it when you get one… I’ve heard of a lot of takes here about what we should do for voting to make it “more secure” but all of this is actually a solution for a problem we just don’t have.

ramon156 8mo ago

We should at least start with electronic voting to compare it against real voting. I know there have been more smaller local tests, but they are not comparable.

estebank 8mo ago

> That being said, I am in favor of in-person voting requiring proof of citizenship The appropriate time to verify citizenship is the one that already happens: during registration. Poll workers only need to verify who you are and that you're registered.

drivebyhooting 8mo ago
In my experience there was no verification other than verbally verbally confirming address and name.
- estebank 8mo ago
  At https://covr.sos.ca.gov/ https://covr.sos.ca.gov/ I have to positively state that I am a US citizen an tie my name to a driver's license or SSN. Neither driver's license nor SSN confirm that one is a citizen (I had both before naturalizing), but both of them are tied to citizenship information in some database. I know I had to attend the Social Security offices in person to provide proof of my naturalization in order to receive an SSN card without the words "valid for work only with DHS authorisation".

nonameiguess 8mo ago

I'd agree in principle with your idea about proof of citizenship, but unfortunately the reality I experienced is I had a valid California driver's license with a Texas address because I had been in the military and California allowed that, but Texas changed their laws to require a Texas ID to vote, and subsequently they also closed 90% of the offices you have to go to to get an ID. Luckily, I knew about this way in advance, but it took 9 months to get an appointment, and when I got there, it required something like four different forms of proof. There were people in there who still lived with their parents who didn't have their own names on any bills bringing their parents in with them to vouch that they actually lived there, getting turned away and told to go fuck themselves. It was extremely transparent and obvious what the state was trying to do, not wanting young people and recent transplants to vote.

drdaeman 8mo ago

Instead of full e-voting I would love to see an additional scheme to a traditional paper ballot that allows for verification. Something like STAR-Vote or Scantegrity. Even if it’s flawed, it would be nice to run specifically because it doesn’t affect the elections but could produce useful insights. If it fails - nothing particularly bad happens, if it works - cool, we get extra assurances or maybe spot some fraud that we weren’t aware about. But there seems to be either no political will, or some issues with the practical implementations. There were some municipal experiments here and there, and then just… crickets. Anyone knows what happened to those efforts?

openasocket 8mo ago

Voter ID is often touted as an important part of election security, but when you look at the threat model of elections it just doesn't do much. Think about how you would try to cheat at an election. The common methods are things like ballot stuffing, throwing out votes, discouraging people from voting, etc. Examples include spreading disinformation about what day voting is happening, seizing ballot boxes and replacing them with forged ballots that favor your candidate, or calling in bomb threats to polling places. These are not prevented by voter ID requirements. The only thing voter ID prevents is voter impersonation. It prevents you from finding someone else's name and polling place, going there, pretending to be that person, and submitting a vote on their behalf. But that threat doesn't really scale. Even if you assume no one at the polling places notice you coming to vote over and over under different names, a single person could probably only do this a few dozen times on election day. To scale that you would need more people; and every person you add to the scheme increases the odds of someone slipping up or getting caught. But the real issue is if any of the people you are impersonating try to vote! While election officials don't record what people voted for, they do record who voted, and the ballot counting process will automatically note that people voted multiple times. So you would have to figure out some way to gather a database of a large number of people you know aren't going to vote, and get a bunch of people to turn up at a bunch of polling places under those names. It's just not practical to do, when elections are decided by thousands or tens of thousands of votes. > how difficult it supposedly is to have an ID (which is weird when you look at how other countries run elections) The devil is in the details. I don't trust that the groups drafting Voter ID legislation are doing so in good faith. For example, North Dakota passed a voter ID law years ago. It stated that you needed a valid state-issued ID that included a street address. Sounds fine, right? The problem is that most homes on Native American reservations don't actually have street addresses. Tribal members use P.O. boxes for mail, and that P.O. box is on their driver's licenses. This was brought up when the law was proposed, but it passed anyway. The Spirit Lake Nation and the Standing Rock Sioux tribes had to sue in federal court. They were eventually successful, but it took years, and in the meantime the 2018 midterms were held with many Native Americans literally unable to vote. See https://www.npr.org/2020/02/14/806083852/north-dakota-and-native-american-tribes-settle-voter-id-lawsuits https://www.npr.org/2020/02/14/806083852/north-dakota-and-na...

mulmen 8mo ago

> That being said for the United States, I am in favor of in-person voting requiring proof of citizenship Why? > I know there's a lot of discussion points around "efficiency" or "cost" or "accessibility" or how difficult it supposedly is to have an ID (which is weird when you look at how other countries run elections) How do other countries run elections to overcome their racially motivated systemic voter suppression? > and there are certainly things to discuss there This is a laughable understatement. > but by and large I think the continued digitalization and alienation of Americans is a much worse problem that can be addressed with more in-person activities and participation in society. I think this is naive. You are attempting to force an outcome without understanding the cause. Systemic racially motivated voter suppression is an undeniable reality in American politics. Voter ID is a clear example of exactly that. It is used to disenfranchise minority voters. This is clear established fact. There is zero evidence of any voter fraud happening that would be eliminated by additional voter ID. This is a serious topic that requires you educate yourself on reality. I suggest you take your advice above and touch reality, you are overly digitalized if you think voter ID has any merit at all.

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