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I'll come out and get kicked out of communism club to say that I don't support UBI on the basic fact that money is exchanged for goods and services is just so f

I'll come out and get kicked out of communism club to say that I don't support UBI on the basic fact that money is exchanged for goods and services is just so foundational that I can't support UBI. I think everybody should have a roof over their heads and 3 square meals a day, but UBI isn't the way to get there.

Obscurity4340 8mo ago
Well what is then? Respectfully, please have an alternative or otherwise how is this not astroturfing
- fragmede 8mo ago
  Astroturfing? If I don't have an alternative, I'm secretly being paid by "them" to tear down UBI? Who would "them" even be? How would that even work? Anyway, subsidized jobs programs is my answer. Pay people to do jobs. Plant trees! There's so many places that could use some reforesting. There's no shortage of work to do.
  - tartoran 8mo ago
    I think the whole premise for UBI is that there won’t be any jobs left, jobs to make a living at least.
DangitBobby 8mo ago
You don't support it on principle or because you don't think it works?
- fragmede 8mo ago
  The exchange of money for goods and services is foundational to capitalism, and UBI seems like a divide by zero kind of trick that's isn't going to work out. Let's fire a bunch of people to make the government more efficient with this one neat trick is just the most Republican thing ever.
UncleMeat 8mo ago
I am not aware of any mechanism to ensure that everybody has a roof over their heads and 3 square meals a day besides direct payments to the poor.
- fragmede 8mo ago
  Welfare and SNAP may be imperfect, but they seem to be working.
  - UncleMeat 8mo ago
    Welfare is a direct payment to the poor and SNAP is very close to that. Work requirements and other administrative hurdles are the primary thing that keeps these programs from truly ensuring that everybody has basic dignity.
maybewhenthesun 8mo ago
> money is exchanged for goods and services is just so foundational it is in all large societies. That's true. But it is not in most small primitive societies. SO it's not like a law of nature, but more that we haven't found a system that works as well for large groups. The trouble is that capitalism also has it's problems, and they're getting exacerbated by technological advancements. If you automate everything at a certain point there's just nothing to do for a large part of the population. And at that point the system stops working. In science fiction we would get the 'post scarcity society', but nobody knows how that should work. The UBI systems I've seen proposed that just might work are a sort of golden middle between those two. Not that different from the current welfare system we have in NL, but taking out the stress factor and stigma of receiving welfare.

Obscurity4340 8mo ago

Well what is then? Respectfully, please have an alternative or otherwise how is this not astroturfing

fragmede 8mo ago
Astroturfing? If I don't have an alternative, I'm secretly being paid by "them" to tear down UBI? Who would "them" even be? How would that even work? Anyway, subsidized jobs programs is my answer. Pay people to do jobs. Plant trees! There's so many places that could use some reforesting. There's no shortage of work to do.
- tartoran 8mo ago
  I think the whole premise for UBI is that there won’t be any jobs left, jobs to make a living at least.

DangitBobby 8mo ago

You don't support it on principle or because you don't think it works?

fragmede 8mo ago
The exchange of money for goods and services is foundational to capitalism, and UBI seems like a divide by zero kind of trick that's isn't going to work out. Let's fire a bunch of people to make the government more efficient with this one neat trick is just the most Republican thing ever.

UncleMeat 8mo ago

I am not aware of any mechanism to ensure that everybody has a roof over their heads and 3 square meals a day besides direct payments to the poor.

fragmede 8mo ago
Welfare and SNAP may be imperfect, but they seem to be working.
- UncleMeat 8mo ago
  Welfare is a direct payment to the poor and SNAP is very close to that. Work requirements and other administrative hurdles are the primary thing that keeps these programs from truly ensuring that everybody has basic dignity.

maybewhenthesun 8mo ago

> money is exchanged for goods and services is just so foundational it is in all large societies. That's true. But it is not in most small primitive societies. SO it's not like a law of nature, but more that we haven't found a system that works as well for large groups. The trouble is that capitalism also has it's problems, and they're getting exacerbated by technological advancements. If you automate everything at a certain point there's just nothing to do for a large part of the population. And at that point the system stops working. In science fiction we would get the 'post scarcity society', but nobody knows how that should work. The UBI systems I've seen proposed that just might work are a sort of golden middle between those two. Not that different from the current welfare system we have in NL, but taking out the stress factor and stigma of receiving welfare.