38 ms·

Nobody’s going to steal your idea

171 points by octopus 14y ago

mattyppants 14y ago
Except for Zuck, he'll steal the shit outta your Hipster Coffee Shop Wifi app.
- sh_vipin 14y ago
  Ha ha ... Too good as an example. I also agree that it better be safe than sorry.
thinkingthings 14y ago
So many times I've had an idea and not long later someone has come out with that exact product - not because they stole it from me but because they come up with it themselves. The ability to execute on that idea is much more important.
- incision 14y ago
  >So many times I've had an idea and not long later someone has come out with that exact product - not because they stole it from me but because they come up with it themselves. Right. I believe that as we collectively walk toward the horizon of what's possible, new things become visible to lots of us at roughly the same time. >The ability to execute on that idea is much more important. Sort of. Thing is, patents seem to reward not the ability to execute, so much as the ability to execute first on what is rapidly being revealed as obvious due to the advancing horizon. Executing fastest seems to be equated to the result being non-obvious and ignores the reality that parallel development towards the same end is likely.
dmritard96 14y ago
sure - but signing a generic NDA on a cheap piece of copy paper doesn't cost much...so w/e, if it makes someone feel better then don't worry about it.
- nlh 14y ago
  I'd respectfully disagree -- it depends who you are. Many entrepreneurs, rightly or wrongly, will treat that NDA as their own provisional patent/trademark/copyright. What if you sign that NDA and start working on a related project? (Or an unrelated project that becomes related, or a project that independently comes up with similar ideas/tech?). The problem with signing an NDA is that by definition you're not sure what you're about to see. If you sign one and then the entrepreneur says "so my idea is to send a rocket to Mars" and you later take a job a SpaceX, get ready to be pursued (again, rightly or wrongly.) In general, it's not good advice to take a "whatever" attitude with legal documents. The fewer you're bound to, the better.
  - joewee 14y ago
    Do you know anyone that has been sued for breach of an NDA?
  - dmritard96 14y ago
    good point. I guess where I would have a legal objection to that line of thought is that an NDA != patent/trademark/copyright - and if it does then it is not strictly an NDA. Certainly maintaining independence of legal bindings is a nice freedom, but knowing what you sign (or choose not to sign) is probably the smart thing to do for any legal document. "The problem with signing an NDA is that by definition you're not sure what you're about to see." - I am not sure I agree with this (sorry for being picky). To me an NDA means you won't share some material with another party. Whether you already know what that material is or not doesn't really have much to do with what an NDA is. That being said, odds are you won't know beforehand...
bmelton 14y ago
The attitude that nobody's going to steal your idea might hold true for a certain audience, but having worked in environments where not only will people steal your idea, but often relationships are formed for that very purpose, I would take that advice with a few grains of salt. As with everything, context is key -- if you're talking about building a new widget for platform_x, and you're in a conversation with your grandparents, you're probably in the clear (for a specific definition of grandparents). If you're having that same conversation with the world's most prolific exporter of widgets for platform x, it might be better to listen than to talk. In contracting environments, specifically in Federal government, the IT ecosystem is an adversarial one, all the work is bid upon, subsequently awarded to a Prime contractor who may or may not sub out some of the work to sub-contractors. It's not impossible for some of the subcontractors to have their wagons hitched to multiple ponies, on the assumption that they'll work with whomever wins. Idea sharing and NDAs are critical in this sort of environment as the novelty / uniqueness / effectiveness of your particular solution to the problem being bid upon is your key differentiator. Otherwise, you likely end up in a price race, where either the largest contractor or the most ill-adept at bidding will win.
arbuge 14y ago
If the person you're talking to is really capable of executing your idea (chances of that are small to begin with), he/she is probably also smart enough that they have their own ideas they're more interested in than yours.
- Scene_Cast2 14y ago
  That depends. I know that HN is more focused on ideas that boil down to making a website, the concept isn't true in the general case. For example, if you're doing ASIC/FPGA optimization, coming up with an idea is hard, and implementing one is (relatively) easy.
  - arbuge 14y ago
    I used to be an IC designer - ICs are an exception. There are some exceptions of course - medical drugs are another that come to mind. Most business ideas are pretty simple though, even outside the internet world. Eg. Sam Walton -> just wanted to build a better retail store, turned into Walmart. Howard Schulz -> better coffee shop -> Starbucks. Warren Buffett -> stockpicking -> BRK. And so on. Execution on these was the hard part.
- mhuffman 14y ago
  This is def. not true in general in my experience. There tends to be a huge gap between people who can implement an idea, and people that can come up with an original idea (even if they can not implement it themselves).
- bluesmoon 14y ago
  person who comes up with idea -> scientist person who implements idea -> engineer engineering is often easier than science
scrrr 14y ago
Not always true. We were working on a smartphone game with an original concept and kept blogging about it. Including telling about the idea and showing early gameplay video. It might have been a coincidence, but a virtually identical game appeared before we were finished and became quite successful on Android. So next time I'll be a little bit more careful.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
  - jahansafd 14y ago
    Execution execution execution
PaulHoule 14y ago
If you have visible success, you have a target on your back. If you don't, your risk of getting ripped off is small, and as the author puts it, you have to force your ideas down people's throats. Look at what happens when something like Twitter or Ebay takes off. The idea isn't difficult to clone at all, and quickly you see competitors of all sorts show up -- often very experienced and well capitalized. Those two companies got protection not from patents and other paperwork, but from network effects and the first mover advantage.
kenjackson 14y ago
There's lots of reasons for NDAs besides stealing ideas. I doubt Apple is afraid I'd steal the next design for their new phone (although they may worry Samsung might), but they still probably don't want me blogging about it. There's marketing impact. Also companies often don't like to commit to product before it's committed. I learned an important lesson at one of my first startups that customers will try to hold you to your "proposed" roadmap. Even though we say, "We're just trying to be transparent. This WILL change. We don't know of this we can do." -- people will tend to find things they like and essentially view what you showed them as a promise to deliver. You suddenly have customers who claim you not only didn't deliver a feature, but that you broke a promise. Until I know I can ship, I really prefer not to talk about it publicly -- even with tons of caveats.
padobson 14y ago
You may want to avoid sharing your ideas with anyone who has a keen understanding of the patent system. If you get out-executed, its your fault for not executing. If someone steals your execution because they patented your idea, then it might have been better to keep your mouth shut.
antiterra 14y ago
Ideas are indeed cheap and not particularly scarce. Yet, when you're implementing that idea or talking to a business about buying your implementation of an idea, it is no longer a run of the mill idea. If your or your client's competitor gets wind of what you're doing, they may try to use that knowledge in their role as competitive antagonist. After all, business is war. Further, ideas can eventually become methods honed by experience. I worked for a company that discovered attempts to sell their system had the unintended consequence of providing valuable consultation to the prospective client. The prospective client could then use hard-won information on how to roll an in-house implementation. They would do this even if the costs were higher, to avoid relying on an external service. In the end, the company ended up charging for consultation, for some reason, bit their tongue when national news credited the client for the innovation.
- dmfdmf 14y ago
  > After all, business is war. Not true, not even metaphorically as with team sports. War is about literal destruction whereas business is a competition in production and creativity.
  - antiterra 14y ago
    War is about much more than literal destruction, even aside from the easy example of a cold war. War has long been a concern of the appropriation of wealth and power and the destructiveness varies. Sometimes a city was sacked with all its men killed and women taken as property. Sometimes a city would be left largely intact but held under a different banner. Sometimes cities or countries are blockaded and sieged in order to starve them into submission. Then there are sneakier and more covert operations intended to destabilize from within. Creativity, ingenuity and perseverance can provide success in either war and business, but it's never a guarantee. Consider Edwin Howard Armstrong, who experienced the destruction of his life after he invented FM radio. Those who wage wars are not necessarily those who actually fight in them. Though it would be distasteful and wrong to equate the plight of an embattled soldier with that of a corporate employee, their metaphorical role as chess pieces to occasionally sacrifice is not without convention.
hemancuso 14y ago
An obvious counterexample is sittercity/care.com "On July 20, 2006, Sheila Marcelo and Nick Beim flew from Boston to Chicago to visit a company called Sittercity. The business, which charged parents to access an online database of sitters and nannies, had been launched in Boston five years earlier. “We took the meeting to talk about an investment,’’ says Genevieve Thiers, the Boston College alumnae who founded Sittercity. She’d met Beim, a partner at Waltham-based Matrix Partners, that year at a trade show. “Nick talked about how Matrix worked with companies and founders,’’ Thiers recalls. Marcelo was serving as an entrepreneur-in-residence at Matrix, hoping to join or help start a business that Matrix would back. “I wanted to do family, health, or education - those areas were my passion,’’ Marcelo says. Three months after the trip, Marcelo started a website, Care.com, to compete directly with Sittercity. Matrix Partners and several prominent investors poured capital into her new company - totaling more than $16 million so far. It wasn’t until late last year that Sittercity raised its first round of venture capital." http://www.boston.com/business/technology/articles/2009/11/22/websites_rivalry_provides_lessons_in_sharing_or_not_sharing_strategic_secrets/ http://www.boston.com/business/technology/articles/2009/11/2... A lot more backstory: http://www.boston.com/business/technology/innoeco/2009/11/the_backstory_on_carecom_sitte.html http://www.boston.com/business/technology/innoeco/2009/11/th...
- drcube 14y ago
  Do you really think "babysitters, online" is a novel, protectable idea? And regardless, to start a company you have to let people know what your company does. You can't just say "give us money, we can't tell you why but it's totally worth it". So the idea has to be released eventually. What would you have had them do differently? These guys were around for 5 years and somebody else beat them within 3 months? That's not a stolen idea, that's a failure of execution.
  - Retric 14y ago
    There was fare more discussed in that meeting than just "babysitters, online". They where in bushiness for 5 years and could easily answer things like 'What's the most useful way to do background checks?'. Which is not 'just an idea', but a validated and valuable one.
paulhauggis 14y ago
The problem is that there are companies and people with way more resources than you out there. They could take your idea and execute it faster and maybe even better than you. Look at Zynga: They continue to rip-off smaller developers because they have a much bigger pool of resources.
- daliusd 14y ago
  There are ideas that big companies will never execute - because throwing 5000-20000$ per month might be simply not worth that. Recommended reading: The Bootstrapper's Bibles
  - paulhauggis 14y ago
    What if my idea is big? Should I just hope they won't take it from me?
    - daliusd 14y ago
      I see several option: 1) double check your idea. I have not come to any unique idea of my own that is not implemented yet or not in implementation stage. In some cases implementations are really poor but still they exist. 2) You have some know-how what makes implementation of your idea successful. They can steal your idea but they will fail to implement it successfully (some comments in this discussion give example of this). Let's say your idea is really big and you implement it first. So what? If it is really good to be copied they will copy it faster than you will get your first paying customers.
- wpietri 14y ago
  Does Zynga rip off ideas? I thought they ripped off finished games with proven profit potential. And then used their superior marketing power. Gaming strikes me as one of those areas where it's most clear that ideas are worthless. Gaming is all about the experience. Which, from the creator side, means it's all about the execution. There are so many popular and fun games that aren't particularly novel ideas. And novel ideas aren't enough to carry a game that is otherwise meh.
esperluette 14y ago
I actually did have someone steal my idea. I was interviewing for a technical co-founder and talked to a guy who seemed really interested. However, after a couple of conversations I got a weird vibe from him and went with someone else. (Oh, and I had $1M in funding at this point, & I was looking for a full partner, not someone to "just build my idea.") A few months later I find that he has started a similar company, with a similar name, and is out raising money. He even said that he came up with the idea when he was 'inspired' by his young daughter. (Dragging your kids into your lie is always scummy.) (This was for a very unusual startup idea, btw, not a game or social app, etc. I am also a recognized expert in this field, 15+ years of experience, national newspaper/magazine profiles, blah blah blah.) He ended up getting money in Singapore and launching a pretty sucky site that got zero traction. It's been a couple years now and I haven't seen anything else from him (but I've been too busy with my company to really look). At the time, I was LIVID but after I cooled off I realized that 1) it was pretty great external validation and 2) someone who would "steal" my idea (and make up a story about it!) would never be able to execute, and I was proven right about both things. My company is now nearly five years old and we're working on our third product extension off the original idea. :-)
- IgorPartola 14y ago
  So you agree with the OP that there is no danger in sharing your ideas before you have traction, etc.? Also, I have seen plenty of posts talking about these types of situations and the person, just like you did, never explains their business or provides a link to it. I would be curious to see what the actual idea was to better understand your situation.
  - esperluette 14y ago
    I think the danger is situational. If you're the kind of person who will give up when you see someone swiping your idea, there is danger. If it makes you work harder ... then it might be an asset. :-) You have to have faith that it's not just your idea that's valuable, but your idea + you and your experience and what you bring to it.
- wpietri 14y ago
jahansafd 14y ago
Ideas don't succeed by themselves. Different people will build differently and therefor succeed accordingly. Hire talented people so that you can reduce the risk of failure by solving your problem better than anyone else. If you can execute better than anyone then you shouldn't be worried about people chasing your idea. You only realize how much commitment is required when you get around working on a project. People don't really have the time to build your dream. even If someone steals your idea, they will only get to the first version of your product, you have the vision for the later versions and updates (you'll always be ahead of the game).
brackin 14y ago
I deal with this every day when I meet founders. They tell me that they're keeping their idea under-wraps because they don't want anyone to steal it or pass it on to someone who could. Not once has any of these people succeeded with this approach. On the other hand, Joel at Bufferapp who I've been watching since the early days was very public. Got out there to find out if people wanted the product pre-MVP and when there was an MVP he let people use it. Today they're based in SF, have strong revenue, a team, venture funding and hundreds of thousands of users. The people with "stealth companies" that succeed are serial founders with money behind them. Most of the time they don't keep it under-wraps, they just don't share it online. If you ask them what they're doing they'll tell you and they're constantly getting out there talking to partners, investors, etc. Many of these companies fail such as Color. Unless you're starting a new national airline that could be stopped if a competitor found out what you are doing and went to congress or partners to block you from entering the market. I recommend talking to competitors if you're put in a situation with one. This is something I've done and they've been very helpful, on one occasion one helped me out without intending to by talking about why one feature probably wouldn't work without a tweak because they found out it doesn't work without X. In the end it's about execution. Get as much as you can out of the door as you can and learn as much about the market as you can. I actually wrote an article about this a new months ago: http://brack.in/post/32461803751/stealth-is-bullshit http://brack.in/post/32461803751/stealth-is-bullshit
- bovik 14y ago
  "one helped me out without intending to by talking about why one feature probably wouldn't work without a tweak because they found out it doesn't work without X." Didn't you just disprove your whole point there. Your competitor revealed his/her ideas about how to solve a problem (that you hadn't even foreseen yet going by your description) and in the process hurt him/herself in the marketplace. Your advice of meeting and talking openly with your competitors didn't really work out for that person.
  - brackin 14y ago
    No because they also received value from me explaining what we're building and he was very interested by it. They are a much bigger market-leading competitor so it's not a case that people will deal with every day. I can understand why someone wouldn't want to talk to a competitor but not when dealing with normal founders, users, etc. As you pointed out it can be risky but overall being open usually leads to a net positive.
TomGullen 14y ago
I don't agree. Mainly because I don't agree with the premise that ideas are worthless - something that is echoed around all the time. Ideas being worthless is the lazy and easy way to explain to someone why they should get feedback on their idea. The reality is ideas do have value. We've got a great idea for a new product, and we're not telling anyone about it. That's because our idea has value and we don't want anyone else to make it before we do. Come back to us in a year or two and I'll happily explain our reasoning behind this. If an idea is worthless it means it literally has zero value. Value doesn't have to be a positive value, it can be negative as well. Given 2 ideas, which of these would you rather develop: - A mobile phone for elephants - A service which sends you an SMS when your website goes offline If both ideas have zero value, it doesn't matter which one you pick when you set out. The reality is if you are going to set out and make mobile phones for elephants you are going to burn through your cash a lot quicker, and have a much lower chance of ever making money and succeeding (if you measure success through sustainability and profitability). These two ideas are not equally worthless, therefore one has more value than another. Two things with differing value cannot both be worthless unless they both have negative expected value. Not all ideas have negative expected value and you easily build a case arguing that the SMS service idea has positive expected value. "All ideas are worthless" is not true as all ideas have varying levels of negative/positive expected value. Sharing your idea is usually the right thing to do, but it does come with some potential downsides. Just because it's usually the right thing to do doesn't mean it's always the right thing to do. Someone might steal/copy your idea. It's probably a lower chance than most people estimate especially in the very early stages of startups.
- nhebb 14y ago
  > Mainly because I don't agree with the premise that ideas are worthless - something that is echoed around all the time. I don't know the genesis of this, but the first time I heard it was in an interview with John Doerr a number of years ago. And from a VC's perspective, that makes sense. They don't want to invest in an idea; they want to invest in something that has traction. From a startup's perspective, though, ideas definitely have value. Startups just need to be cognizant of the tightrope between guarding the idea and getting early feedback and buzz. Edit: I should add that I've had to sign NDA's that I thought were ridiculous, so the blog post isn't without merit. I just get tired of the ideas are worthless meme because I think it's over-applied.
milesli 14y ago
I disagree what the article is talking about. I believe the ideas matter! but most of them just don't work, we need to try them out and get the right one.
ahc506 14y ago
The author has little to no idea how many trade secret cases are brought each year in the U.S., and the conviction rate stemming from thos cases. The staggering number is simply too overwhelming to simply write such an igonrant article. The fact is that ideas are stolen at a rate more common than anyone's guess. Most companies have a NDA/non-compete agreement for a reason. While the know-hows might not be readily apparent, reverse engineering is not far from outcry. While a good idea requires flawless execution to make a successful business, the majority of the population fails to understand that the idea, or the conception, is all that is needed to take that freedom of operation from you...just ask any patent attorney.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
pratyushmittal 14y ago
Mohnish Pabrai explains this concept of "cloning" really well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBXRNH9VfhA&feature=youtu.be http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBXRNH9VfhA&feature=youtu...
HCIdivision17 14y ago
Note that there is a difference between trade secret and a cool idea you have. If you have an idea that has been implemented, it's a really smart plan to keep it secret: if the idea's found out, your competition will also likely know how valuable it is. They'll know it's worth implementing. But unimplemented ideas are only as useful as their implementation. And getting people to go along with your ideas? Well, that's where ramming it down their throats comes in. And if your idea is obvious, well, it's not really a trade secret either. And a trade secret's valuable because it has at least some protection legally.
18pfsmt 14y ago
I think this notion varies depending on whether one is discussing B2C or B2B. I would love for some smart folks to "steal" my idea, and build a real marketplace for spot-freight, but nobody with talent seems interested. I believe this has to do with a lack of knowledge about the specific industry. As a result, I've been building a solution myself, slowly but surely.
patrickg 14y ago
First of all, one cannot 'steal' your idea. You still have it... Actually I have taken an idea from the company I was working at. They kicked me out and I started my own company developing a very similar software, but I believe it is more successful, not because of technical superiority or so, but more due to customer empathy. Most people love to work with me, because I deliver quality and on time, in contrast to my former company. So I have a slightly bad feeling, but a) hey, they kicked me out and b) I treat customers much better than they did.
robomartin 14y ago
This is pure nonsense. Please, please, please stop talking about ideas. What people steal --and the only thing with huge value-- are MARKET OPPORTUNITIES. Ideas are easy to generate. Everyone has loads of them. When an idea is combined with the work necessary to identify if a market opportunity exists it can become invaluable. Ideas are not stolen because an idea, all by itself, does not identify whether or not anyone wants the thing or the service. If I told you that I had an idea to make a dish-washing sponge in the shape of a smiley face you, more than likely, would walk away laughing. So would I if someone came to me with that idea. How would you react if I actually manufactured them, sold a bunch and showed you that people want them? Right. You'd pay attention. You wouldn't laugh. And you certainly wouldn't walk away. Well, I saw exactly that happen at the Shark Tank show recently. I think the guy got a $300K investment. $300K for the idea for a friggin smiley-face sponge? Nope. $300K for the market opportunity he uncovered. If you present someone with an idea and that idea is so good that it identifies the market opportunity without further work, well, it might get stolen. With most other ideas they'll listen and nod and possibly even think you are a moron and completely forget what you told them. If, on the other hand, you show them an idea coupled with your work confirming that a good scalable market exists, hold on! The market opportunity will either be stolen or you'll have someone all over you wanting to become an investor or participate in some manner in the opportunity you identified.
- fragsworth 14y ago
  "Ideas" and "market opportunities" sort of go hand in hand, don't you think? The market opportunity is assumed when someone talks about an idea for a business.
  - Robin_Message 14y ago
    Yes, and validating the assumption of a market opportunity is called finding product-market fit. Failing to do so is a leading cause of death among startups. An actual market opportunity, not an assumed one, is certainly valuable - which is why a VC will invest in it where they wouldn't invest in just an idea.
  - deleted 14y ago
jseims 14y ago
If you're just at the "idea stage", then no one is going to steal your idea. If you've progressed further and have some traction, some lessons learned in customer acquisition channels, etc., then you should be cautious about what you share because your information has real value.
mrharrison 14y ago
There is definitely a great divide on whether to keep an idea secret or not. Locations and the social circles you are apart of matter quite a bit; I live in SF and work in PA and I'm surrounded by very capable people. I have had ideas stolen that I was in mid process of building, particularly by an EIR's (entrepreneur in residence) who had better resources than I and were able to execute much faster. And it turned out to be a success in the app store.<br/> For those who say its ridiculous to keep things secret--I think they aren't surrounded by very capable people who are willing to do anything to be successful. Apple, (a pretty successful company), is highly known for keeping their ideas secret. You know why? Because they have burned in the past, just like I have and others around me. Product test as secretly as you can, build a capable product, not an MVP, and hit the market hard!
- wpietri 14y ago
  I'm not sure Apple's a great example. They keep their ideas secret for marketing reasons: they get immense amounts of free advertising by being dramatic about new product launches. And because they burnish their brand by maximizing their number of public hit products. (They also keep some details of incremental improvements secret because it's a highly competitive market, but that's different than stealing ideas for new products.) In fact, I'm having trouble thinking of a "big new idea" product they did recently. They were years late to the MP3 player and smartphone markets, for example. Since the idea's out, would you mind saying more about the idea that was stolen?
- dthtvwls 14y ago
  I don't think Apple is a great analog for most startups, who don't have the time or cash to test and iterate in secret for months. And many of their products that needed real world validation (Ping, Siri) have not turned out great.
level09 14y ago
ideas that are easy to reproduce and implement can be easily stolen. for example, you buy a Groupon clone for a few hundred bucks, in some countries these clones are more dominant than Groupon itself.
jriley 14y ago
On related note, I let fear of plagiarism be an excuse not to publish content to blogs. I've since found free tools (i.e. Copyscape) that help protect content creators.
drp4929 14y ago
... but somebody can out-execute you on your own idea.
bryans 14y ago
I really wish we could stop having this semantics debate over the word "worthless." When one side says "ideas are worthless," they're saying that they have no quantifiable monetary value until executed. When the other side responds with "ideas aren't worthless," they're arguing against the notion that ideas are of no use at all. We've been arguing over two definitions of the same word for years, and both sides have been correct all along.
SethMurphy 14y ago
Sharing your ideas with the right people helps make them better. The more feedback I get on an idea, the better I am able to nurture it and execute it in a useful way.
shuzchen 14y ago
I feel like one point that is missing in this conversation is that sometimes when you don't talk to people about your ideas you miss out on a lot! I frequent a lot of technical mixers in the region and I talk to a lot of people about their ideas (and sometimes about my ideas). Not to mention validation (how many people get excited about your idea), but there are a lot of helpful criticism or leads to be found by telling people your idea. There were a ton of folks that, after having heard what they were doing, I was able to point them to similar entries in the field ("your idea sounds really similar to this existing site, but they're different because of X") or to tools that could help them ("hey, have you heard of twilio/stripe/etc, because that could help you bootstrapped quickly", or "hey, you should talk to X, he's actually working on related topic and could give you some insight"). If you're some huge company (Apple, Facebook, Google) you already have a huge pool of internal brains to pick. If you're one lone entrepreneur on a mission, I'd say you benefit a lot more from telling good people about your idea than it is to stay mum about it.
felixchan 14y ago
I guess someone has never seen the social network.
jfc 14y ago
It's quite conceivable that someone will steal your idea, if it's a good one. The question is the degree to which they can impact your ultimate execution of the idea--and that depends on a range of factors, from market dynamics to your own ingenuity. Whenever I hear a common refrain in an industry that something doesn't happen, I know immediately that it absolutely does happen, but that acknowledging it doesn't fit with the existing culture for some reason.
OldSchool 14y ago
Since we don't manufacture much in the US anymore it's becoming unpatriotic to not worship intellectual "property." It's almost all we've got. But still, some very successful people have chimed in to the contrary: Napolean Hill (Think and Grow Rich): Ideas without action are impotent Thomas Edison: Genius is one percent inspiration, ninety-nine percent perspiration (he became a litigious bastard anyway) If you're in business to make money, almost without exception it's going to be all about making and keeping people happy. That takes ongoing work, it only starts with an idea.
raintrees 14y ago
I would think there is value in the NDA for the legal side of VC/Funding. Isn't protecting one's Intellectual Property seen as prudent, and one of the checkboxes to check in evaluating a business plan?
moens 14y ago
I had an idea stolen. It was pure philosophy... a means to help a woman understand how her man is motivated. Not a male / female thing, but that was a very marketable aspect, and (thus) the way I communicated the idea. It was butchered, but still sold $4m in books. The butchery got worse over two sequels. I seriously doubt that I will ever be able to communicate said idea (much less sell it) unless I can completely reconstruct its presentation. Not saying that I disagree with the idea vs execution rhetoric here in the comments, I do agree... execution is more important. Execution in plant growing is more important than the seeds themselves... unless you lack the seeds. Some here have said that at the right moment any arbitrary number of people will discover idea X. I would agree if the subtlety of the idea is not arbitrary, however the best ideas are unexpectedly early, and therefore subtle. Do not mistake any of this as an argument for patents, or even fairness in a general sense. I know business is war. One's only recourse is carefulness, caution, the sacred texts called it wisdom.
engrocer 14y ago
Immitation is the sincerest form of flattery. A local startup raised over $300k after stealing my work and trying to pass it off as their own but they had no idea how to execute on it after they raised. They're now grasping at how to find product-market fit and they've pivoted thrice because they can't pull-off what they ripped-off. We've found companies in Europe that came up with the same idea because the verticals we work in are more evolved there. Seeing others conjuring similar ideas validates that we're on the right track in a new market ripe with opportunity.

171 points by octopus 14y ago

mattyppants 14y ago

Except for Zuck, he'll steal the shit outta your Hipster Coffee Shop Wifi app.

sh_vipin 14y ago
Ha ha ... Too good as an example. I also agree that it better be safe than sorry.

thinkingthings 14y ago

So many times I've had an idea and not long later someone has come out with that exact product - not because they stole it from me but because they come up with it themselves. The ability to execute on that idea is much more important.

incision 14y ago
>So many times I've had an idea and not long later someone has come out with that exact product - not because they stole it from me but because they come up with it themselves. Right. I believe that as we collectively walk toward the horizon of what's possible, new things become visible to lots of us at roughly the same time. >The ability to execute on that idea is much more important. Sort of. Thing is, patents seem to reward not the ability to execute, so much as the ability to execute first on what is rapidly being revealed as obvious due to the advancing horizon. Executing fastest seems to be equated to the result being non-obvious and ignores the reality that parallel development towards the same end is likely.

dmritard96 14y ago

sure - but signing a generic NDA on a cheap piece of copy paper doesn't cost much...so w/e, if it makes someone feel better then don't worry about it.

nlh 14y ago
I'd respectfully disagree -- it depends who you are. Many entrepreneurs, rightly or wrongly, will treat that NDA as their own provisional patent/trademark/copyright. What if you sign that NDA and start working on a related project? (Or an unrelated project that becomes related, or a project that independently comes up with similar ideas/tech?). The problem with signing an NDA is that by definition you're not sure what you're about to see. If you sign one and then the entrepreneur says "so my idea is to send a rocket to Mars" and you later take a job a SpaceX, get ready to be pursued (again, rightly or wrongly.) In general, it's not good advice to take a "whatever" attitude with legal documents. The fewer you're bound to, the better.
- joewee 14y ago
  Do you know anyone that has been sued for breach of an NDA?
- dmritard96 14y ago
  good point. I guess where I would have a legal objection to that line of thought is that an NDA != patent/trademark/copyright - and if it does then it is not strictly an NDA. Certainly maintaining independence of legal bindings is a nice freedom, but knowing what you sign (or choose not to sign) is probably the smart thing to do for any legal document. "The problem with signing an NDA is that by definition you're not sure what you're about to see." - I am not sure I agree with this (sorry for being picky). To me an NDA means you won't share some material with another party. Whether you already know what that material is or not doesn't really have much to do with what an NDA is. That being said, odds are you won't know beforehand...

bmelton 14y ago

The attitude that nobody's going to steal your idea might hold true for a certain audience, but having worked in environments where not only will people steal your idea, but often relationships are formed for that very purpose, I would take that advice with a few grains of salt. As with everything, context is key -- if you're talking about building a new widget for platform_x, and you're in a conversation with your grandparents, you're probably in the clear (for a specific definition of grandparents). If you're having that same conversation with the world's most prolific exporter of widgets for platform x, it might be better to listen than to talk. In contracting environments, specifically in Federal government, the IT ecosystem is an adversarial one, all the work is bid upon, subsequently awarded to a Prime contractor who may or may not sub out some of the work to sub-contractors. It's not impossible for some of the subcontractors to have their wagons hitched to multiple ponies, on the assumption that they'll work with whomever wins. Idea sharing and NDAs are critical in this sort of environment as the novelty / uniqueness / effectiveness of your particular solution to the problem being bid upon is your key differentiator. Otherwise, you likely end up in a price race, where either the largest contractor or the most ill-adept at bidding will win.

arbuge 14y ago

If the person you're talking to is really capable of executing your idea (chances of that are small to begin with), he/she is probably also smart enough that they have their own ideas they're more interested in than yours.

Scene_Cast2 14y ago
That depends. I know that HN is more focused on ideas that boil down to making a website, the concept isn't true in the general case. For example, if you're doing ASIC/FPGA optimization, coming up with an idea is hard, and implementing one is (relatively) easy.
- arbuge 14y ago
  I used to be an IC designer - ICs are an exception. There are some exceptions of course - medical drugs are another that come to mind. Most business ideas are pretty simple though, even outside the internet world. Eg. Sam Walton -> just wanted to build a better retail store, turned into Walmart. Howard Schulz -> better coffee shop -> Starbucks. Warren Buffett -> stockpicking -> BRK. And so on. Execution on these was the hard part.
mhuffman 14y ago
This is def. not true in general in my experience. There tends to be a huge gap between people who can implement an idea, and people that can come up with an original idea (even if they can not implement it themselves).
bluesmoon 14y ago
person who comes up with idea -> scientist person who implements idea -> engineer engineering is often easier than science

scrrr 14y ago

Not always true. We were working on a smartphone game with an original concept and kept blogging about it. Including telling about the idea and showing early gameplay video. It might have been a coincidence, but a virtually identical game appeared before we were finished and became quite successful on Android. So next time I'll be a little bit more careful.

deleted 14y ago
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- jahansafd 14y ago
  Execution execution execution

PaulHoule 14y ago

If you have visible success, you have a target on your back. If you don't, your risk of getting ripped off is small, and as the author puts it, you have to force your ideas down people's throats. Look at what happens when something like Twitter or Ebay takes off. The idea isn't difficult to clone at all, and quickly you see competitors of all sorts show up -- often very experienced and well capitalized. Those two companies got protection not from patents and other paperwork, but from network effects and the first mover advantage.

kenjackson 14y ago

There's lots of reasons for NDAs besides stealing ideas. I doubt Apple is afraid I'd steal the next design for their new phone (although they may worry Samsung might), but they still probably don't want me blogging about it. There's marketing impact. Also companies often don't like to commit to product before it's committed. I learned an important lesson at one of my first startups that customers will try to hold you to your "proposed" roadmap. Even though we say, "We're just trying to be transparent. This WILL change. We don't know of this we can do." -- people will tend to find things they like and essentially view what you showed them as a promise to deliver. You suddenly have customers who claim you not only didn't deliver a feature, but that you broke a promise. Until I know I can ship, I really prefer not to talk about it publicly -- even with tons of caveats.

padobson 14y ago

You may want to avoid sharing your ideas with anyone who has a keen understanding of the patent system. If you get out-executed, its your fault for not executing. If someone steals your execution because they patented your idea, then it might have been better to keep your mouth shut.

antiterra 14y ago

Ideas are indeed cheap and not particularly scarce. Yet, when you're implementing that idea or talking to a business about buying your implementation of an idea, it is no longer a run of the mill idea. If your or your client's competitor gets wind of what you're doing, they may try to use that knowledge in their role as competitive antagonist. After all, business is war. Further, ideas can eventually become methods honed by experience. I worked for a company that discovered attempts to sell their system had the unintended consequence of providing valuable consultation to the prospective client. The prospective client could then use hard-won information on how to roll an in-house implementation. They would do this even if the costs were higher, to avoid relying on an external service. In the end, the company ended up charging for consultation, for some reason, bit their tongue when national news credited the client for the innovation.

dmfdmf 14y ago
> After all, business is war. Not true, not even metaphorically as with team sports. War is about literal destruction whereas business is a competition in production and creativity.
- antiterra 14y ago
  War is about much more than literal destruction, even aside from the easy example of a cold war. War has long been a concern of the appropriation of wealth and power and the destructiveness varies. Sometimes a city was sacked with all its men killed and women taken as property. Sometimes a city would be left largely intact but held under a different banner. Sometimes cities or countries are blockaded and sieged in order to starve them into submission. Then there are sneakier and more covert operations intended to destabilize from within. Creativity, ingenuity and perseverance can provide success in either war and business, but it's never a guarantee. Consider Edwin Howard Armstrong, who experienced the destruction of his life after he invented FM radio. Those who wage wars are not necessarily those who actually fight in them. Though it would be distasteful and wrong to equate the plight of an embattled soldier with that of a corporate employee, their metaphorical role as chess pieces to occasionally sacrifice is not without convention.

hemancuso 14y ago

An obvious counterexample is sittercity/care.com "On July 20, 2006, Sheila Marcelo and Nick Beim flew from Boston to Chicago to visit a company called Sittercity. The business, which charged parents to access an online database of sitters and nannies, had been launched in Boston five years earlier. “We took the meeting to talk about an investment,’’ says Genevieve Thiers, the Boston College alumnae who founded Sittercity. She’d met Beim, a partner at Waltham-based Matrix Partners, that year at a trade show. “Nick talked about how Matrix worked with companies and founders,’’ Thiers recalls. Marcelo was serving as an entrepreneur-in-residence at Matrix, hoping to join or help start a business that Matrix would back. “I wanted to do family, health, or education - those areas were my passion,’’ Marcelo says. Three months after the trip, Marcelo started a website, Care.com, to compete directly with Sittercity. Matrix Partners and several prominent investors poured capital into her new company - totaling more than $16 million so far. It wasn’t until late last year that Sittercity raised its first round of venture capital." http://www.boston.com/business/technology/articles/2009/11/22/websites_rivalry_provides_lessons_in_sharing_or_not_sharing_strategic_secrets/ http://www.boston.com/business/technology/articles/2009/11/2... A lot more backstory: http://www.boston.com/business/technology/innoeco/2009/11/the_backstory_on_carecom_sitte.html http://www.boston.com/business/technology/innoeco/2009/11/th...

drcube 14y ago
Do you really think "babysitters, online" is a novel, protectable idea? And regardless, to start a company you have to let people know what your company does. You can't just say "give us money, we can't tell you why but it's totally worth it". So the idea has to be released eventually. What would you have had them do differently? These guys were around for 5 years and somebody else beat them within 3 months? That's not a stolen idea, that's a failure of execution.
- Retric 14y ago
  There was fare more discussed in that meeting than just "babysitters, online". They where in bushiness for 5 years and could easily answer things like 'What's the most useful way to do background checks?'. Which is not 'just an idea', but a validated and valuable one.

paulhauggis 14y ago

The problem is that there are companies and people with way more resources than you out there. They could take your idea and execute it faster and maybe even better than you. Look at Zynga: They continue to rip-off smaller developers because they have a much bigger pool of resources.

daliusd 14y ago
There are ideas that big companies will never execute - because throwing 5000-20000$ per month might be simply not worth that. Recommended reading: The Bootstrapper's Bibles
- paulhauggis 14y ago
  What if my idea is big? Should I just hope they won't take it from me?
  - daliusd 14y ago
    I see several option: 1) double check your idea. I have not come to any unique idea of my own that is not implemented yet or not in implementation stage. In some cases implementations are really poor but still they exist. 2) You have some know-how what makes implementation of your idea successful. They can steal your idea but they will fail to implement it successfully (some comments in this discussion give example of this). Let's say your idea is really big and you implement it first. So what? If it is really good to be copied they will copy it faster than you will get your first paying customers.
wpietri 14y ago
Does Zynga rip off ideas? I thought they ripped off finished games with proven profit potential. And then used their superior marketing power. Gaming strikes me as one of those areas where it's most clear that ideas are worthless. Gaming is all about the experience. Which, from the creator side, means it's all about the execution. There are so many popular and fun games that aren't particularly novel ideas. And novel ideas aren't enough to carry a game that is otherwise meh.

esperluette 14y ago

I actually did have someone steal my idea. I was interviewing for a technical co-founder and talked to a guy who seemed really interested. However, after a couple of conversations I got a weird vibe from him and went with someone else. (Oh, and I had $1M in funding at this point, & I was looking for a full partner, not someone to "just build my idea.") A few months later I find that he has started a similar company, with a similar name, and is out raising money. He even said that he came up with the idea when he was 'inspired' by his young daughter. (Dragging your kids into your lie is always scummy.) (This was for a very unusual startup idea, btw, not a game or social app, etc. I am also a recognized expert in this field, 15+ years of experience, national newspaper/magazine profiles, blah blah blah.) He ended up getting money in Singapore and launching a pretty sucky site that got zero traction. It's been a couple years now and I haven't seen anything else from him (but I've been too busy with my company to really look). At the time, I was LIVID but after I cooled off I realized that 1) it was pretty great external validation and 2) someone who would "steal" my idea (and make up a story about it!) would never be able to execute, and I was proven right about both things. My company is now nearly five years old and we're working on our third product extension off the original idea. :-)

IgorPartola 14y ago
So you agree with the OP that there is no danger in sharing your ideas before you have traction, etc.? Also, I have seen plenty of posts talking about these types of situations and the person, just like you did, never explains their business or provides a link to it. I would be curious to see what the actual idea was to better understand your situation.
- esperluette 14y ago
  I think the danger is situational. If you're the kind of person who will give up when you see someone swiping your idea, there is danger. If it makes you work harder ... then it might be an asset. :-) You have to have faith that it's not just your idea that's valuable, but your idea + you and your experience and what you bring to it.
wpietri 14y ago

jahansafd 14y ago

Ideas don't succeed by themselves. Different people will build differently and therefor succeed accordingly. Hire talented people so that you can reduce the risk of failure by solving your problem better than anyone else. If you can execute better than anyone then you shouldn't be worried about people chasing your idea. You only realize how much commitment is required when you get around working on a project. People don't really have the time to build your dream. even If someone steals your idea, they will only get to the first version of your product, you have the vision for the later versions and updates (you'll always be ahead of the game).

brackin 14y ago

I deal with this every day when I meet founders. They tell me that they're keeping their idea under-wraps because they don't want anyone to steal it or pass it on to someone who could. Not once has any of these people succeeded with this approach. On the other hand, Joel at Bufferapp who I've been watching since the early days was very public. Got out there to find out if people wanted the product pre-MVP and when there was an MVP he let people use it. Today they're based in SF, have strong revenue, a team, venture funding and hundreds of thousands of users. The people with "stealth companies" that succeed are serial founders with money behind them. Most of the time they don't keep it under-wraps, they just don't share it online. If you ask them what they're doing they'll tell you and they're constantly getting out there talking to partners, investors, etc. Many of these companies fail such as Color. Unless you're starting a new national airline that could be stopped if a competitor found out what you are doing and went to congress or partners to block you from entering the market. I recommend talking to competitors if you're put in a situation with one. This is something I've done and they've been very helpful, on one occasion one helped me out without intending to by talking about why one feature probably wouldn't work without a tweak because they found out it doesn't work without X. In the end it's about execution. Get as much as you can out of the door as you can and learn as much about the market as you can. I actually wrote an article about this a new months ago: http://brack.in/post/32461803751/stealth-is-bullshit http://brack.in/post/32461803751/stealth-is-bullshit

bovik 14y ago
"one helped me out without intending to by talking about why one feature probably wouldn't work without a tweak because they found out it doesn't work without X." Didn't you just disprove your whole point there. Your competitor revealed his/her ideas about how to solve a problem (that you hadn't even foreseen yet going by your description) and in the process hurt him/herself in the marketplace. Your advice of meeting and talking openly with your competitors didn't really work out for that person.
- brackin 14y ago
  No because they also received value from me explaining what we're building and he was very interested by it. They are a much bigger market-leading competitor so it's not a case that people will deal with every day. I can understand why someone wouldn't want to talk to a competitor but not when dealing with normal founders, users, etc. As you pointed out it can be risky but overall being open usually leads to a net positive.

TomGullen 14y ago

I don't agree. Mainly because I don't agree with the premise that ideas are worthless - something that is echoed around all the time. Ideas being worthless is the lazy and easy way to explain to someone why they should get feedback on their idea. The reality is ideas do have value. We've got a great idea for a new product, and we're not telling anyone about it. That's because our idea has value and we don't want anyone else to make it before we do. Come back to us in a year or two and I'll happily explain our reasoning behind this. If an idea is worthless it means it literally has zero value. Value doesn't have to be a positive value, it can be negative as well. Given 2 ideas, which of these would you rather develop: - A mobile phone for elephants - A service which sends you an SMS when your website goes offline If both ideas have zero value, it doesn't matter which one you pick when you set out. The reality is if you are going to set out and make mobile phones for elephants you are going to burn through your cash a lot quicker, and have a much lower chance of ever making money and succeeding (if you measure success through sustainability and profitability). These two ideas are not equally worthless, therefore one has more value than another. Two things with differing value cannot both be worthless unless they both have negative expected value. Not all ideas have negative expected value and you easily build a case arguing that the SMS service idea has positive expected value. "All ideas are worthless" is not true as all ideas have varying levels of negative/positive expected value. Sharing your idea is usually the right thing to do, but it does come with some potential downsides. Just because it's usually the right thing to do doesn't mean it's always the right thing to do. Someone might steal/copy your idea. It's probably a lower chance than most people estimate especially in the very early stages of startups.

nhebb 14y ago
> Mainly because I don't agree with the premise that ideas are worthless - something that is echoed around all the time. I don't know the genesis of this, but the first time I heard it was in an interview with John Doerr a number of years ago. And from a VC's perspective, that makes sense. They don't want to invest in an idea; they want to invest in something that has traction. From a startup's perspective, though, ideas definitely have value. Startups just need to be cognizant of the tightrope between guarding the idea and getting early feedback and buzz. Edit: I should add that I've had to sign NDA's that I thought were ridiculous, so the blog post isn't without merit. I just get tired of the ideas are worthless meme because I think it's over-applied.

milesli 14y ago

I disagree what the article is talking about. I believe the ideas matter! but most of them just don't work, we need to try them out and get the right one.

ahc506 14y ago

The author has little to no idea how many trade secret cases are brought each year in the U.S., and the conviction rate stemming from thos cases. The staggering number is simply too overwhelming to simply write such an igonrant article. The fact is that ideas are stolen at a rate more common than anyone's guess. Most companies have a NDA/non-compete agreement for a reason. While the know-hows might not be readily apparent, reverse engineering is not far from outcry. While a good idea requires flawless execution to make a successful business, the majority of the population fails to understand that the idea, or the conception, is all that is needed to take that freedom of operation from you...just ask any patent attorney.

deleted 14y ago

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pratyushmittal 14y ago

Mohnish Pabrai explains this concept of "cloning" really well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBXRNH9VfhA&feature=youtu.be http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBXRNH9VfhA&feature=youtu...

HCIdivision17 14y ago

Note that there is a difference between trade secret and a cool idea you have. If you have an idea that has been implemented, it's a really smart plan to keep it secret: if the idea's found out, your competition will also likely know how valuable it is. They'll know it's worth implementing. But unimplemented ideas are only as useful as their implementation. And getting people to go along with your ideas? Well, that's where ramming it down their throats comes in. And if your idea is obvious, well, it's not really a trade secret either. And a trade secret's valuable because it has at least some protection legally.

18pfsmt 14y ago

I think this notion varies depending on whether one is discussing B2C or B2B. I would love for some smart folks to "steal" my idea, and build a real marketplace for spot-freight, but nobody with talent seems interested. I believe this has to do with a lack of knowledge about the specific industry. As a result, I've been building a solution myself, slowly but surely.

patrickg 14y ago

First of all, one cannot 'steal' your idea. You still have it... Actually I have taken an idea from the company I was working at. They kicked me out and I started my own company developing a very similar software, but I believe it is more successful, not because of technical superiority or so, but more due to customer empathy. Most people love to work with me, because I deliver quality and on time, in contrast to my former company. So I have a slightly bad feeling, but a) hey, they kicked me out and b) I treat customers much better than they did.

robomartin 14y ago

This is pure nonsense. Please, please, please stop talking about ideas. What people steal --and the only thing with huge value-- are MARKET OPPORTUNITIES. Ideas are easy to generate. Everyone has loads of them. When an idea is combined with the work necessary to identify if a market opportunity exists it can become invaluable. Ideas are not stolen because an idea, all by itself, does not identify whether or not anyone wants the thing or the service. If I told you that I had an idea to make a dish-washing sponge in the shape of a smiley face you, more than likely, would walk away laughing. So would I if someone came to me with that idea. How would you react if I actually manufactured them, sold a bunch and showed you that people want them? Right. You'd pay attention. You wouldn't laugh. And you certainly wouldn't walk away. Well, I saw exactly that happen at the Shark Tank show recently. I think the guy got a $300K investment. $300K for the idea for a friggin smiley-face sponge? Nope. $300K for the market opportunity he uncovered. If you present someone with an idea and that idea is so good that it identifies the market opportunity without further work, well, it might get stolen. With most other ideas they'll listen and nod and possibly even think you are a moron and completely forget what you told them. If, on the other hand, you show them an idea coupled with your work confirming that a good scalable market exists, hold on! The market opportunity will either be stolen or you'll have someone all over you wanting to become an investor or participate in some manner in the opportunity you identified.

fragsworth 14y ago
"Ideas" and "market opportunities" sort of go hand in hand, don't you think? The market opportunity is assumed when someone talks about an idea for a business.
- Robin_Message 14y ago
  Yes, and validating the assumption of a market opportunity is called finding product-market fit. Failing to do so is a leading cause of death among startups. An actual market opportunity, not an assumed one, is certainly valuable - which is why a VC will invest in it where they wouldn't invest in just an idea.
- deleted 14y ago

jseims 14y ago

If you're just at the "idea stage", then no one is going to steal your idea. If you've progressed further and have some traction, some lessons learned in customer acquisition channels, etc., then you should be cautious about what you share because your information has real value.

mrharrison 14y ago

There is definitely a great divide on whether to keep an idea secret or not. Locations and the social circles you are apart of matter quite a bit; I live in SF and work in PA and I'm surrounded by very capable people. I have had ideas stolen that I was in mid process of building, particularly by an EIR's (entrepreneur in residence) who had better resources than I and were able to execute much faster. And it turned out to be a success in the app store.<br/> For those who say its ridiculous to keep things secret--I think they aren't surrounded by very capable people who are willing to do anything to be successful. Apple, (a pretty successful company), is highly known for keeping their ideas secret. You know why? Because they have burned in the past, just like I have and others around me. Product test as secretly as you can, build a capable product, not an MVP, and hit the market hard!

wpietri 14y ago
I'm not sure Apple's a great example. They keep their ideas secret for marketing reasons: they get immense amounts of free advertising by being dramatic about new product launches. And because they burnish their brand by maximizing their number of public hit products. (They also keep some details of incremental improvements secret because it's a highly competitive market, but that's different than stealing ideas for new products.) In fact, I'm having trouble thinking of a "big new idea" product they did recently. They were years late to the MP3 player and smartphone markets, for example. Since the idea's out, would you mind saying more about the idea that was stolen?
dthtvwls 14y ago
I don't think Apple is a great analog for most startups, who don't have the time or cash to test and iterate in secret for months. And many of their products that needed real world validation (Ping, Siri) have not turned out great.

level09 14y ago

ideas that are easy to reproduce and implement can be easily stolen. for example, you buy a Groupon clone for a few hundred bucks, in some countries these clones are more dominant than Groupon itself.

jriley 14y ago

On related note, I let fear of plagiarism be an excuse not to publish content to blogs. I've since found free tools (i.e. Copyscape) that help protect content creators.

drp4929 14y ago

... but somebody can out-execute you on your own idea.

bryans 14y ago

I really wish we could stop having this semantics debate over the word "worthless." When one side says "ideas are worthless," they're saying that they have no quantifiable monetary value until executed. When the other side responds with "ideas aren't worthless," they're arguing against the notion that ideas are of no use at all. We've been arguing over two definitions of the same word for years, and both sides have been correct all along.

SethMurphy 14y ago

Sharing your ideas with the right people helps make them better. The more feedback I get on an idea, the better I am able to nurture it and execute it in a useful way.

shuzchen 14y ago

I feel like one point that is missing in this conversation is that sometimes when you don't talk to people about your ideas you miss out on a lot! I frequent a lot of technical mixers in the region and I talk to a lot of people about their ideas (and sometimes about my ideas). Not to mention validation (how many people get excited about your idea), but there are a lot of helpful criticism or leads to be found by telling people your idea. There were a ton of folks that, after having heard what they were doing, I was able to point them to similar entries in the field ("your idea sounds really similar to this existing site, but they're different because of X") or to tools that could help them ("hey, have you heard of twilio/stripe/etc, because that could help you bootstrapped quickly", or "hey, you should talk to X, he's actually working on related topic and could give you some insight"). If you're some huge company (Apple, Facebook, Google) you already have a huge pool of internal brains to pick. If you're one lone entrepreneur on a mission, I'd say you benefit a lot more from telling good people about your idea than it is to stay mum about it.

felixchan 14y ago

I guess someone has never seen the social network.

jfc 14y ago

It's quite conceivable that someone will steal your idea, if it's a good one. The question is the degree to which they can impact your ultimate execution of the idea--and that depends on a range of factors, from market dynamics to your own ingenuity. Whenever I hear a common refrain in an industry that something doesn't happen, I know immediately that it absolutely does happen, but that acknowledging it doesn't fit with the existing culture for some reason.

OldSchool 14y ago

Since we don't manufacture much in the US anymore it's becoming unpatriotic to not worship intellectual "property." It's almost all we've got. But still, some very successful people have chimed in to the contrary: Napolean Hill (Think and Grow Rich): Ideas without action are impotent Thomas Edison: Genius is one percent inspiration, ninety-nine percent perspiration (he became a litigious bastard anyway) If you're in business to make money, almost without exception it's going to be all about making and keeping people happy. That takes ongoing work, it only starts with an idea.

raintrees 14y ago

I would think there is value in the NDA for the legal side of VC/Funding. Isn't protecting one's Intellectual Property seen as prudent, and one of the checkboxes to check in evaluating a business plan?

moens 14y ago

I had an idea stolen. It was pure philosophy... a means to help a woman understand how her man is motivated. Not a male / female thing, but that was a very marketable aspect, and (thus) the way I communicated the idea. It was butchered, but still sold $4m in books. The butchery got worse over two sequels. I seriously doubt that I will ever be able to communicate said idea (much less sell it) unless I can completely reconstruct its presentation. Not saying that I disagree with the idea vs execution rhetoric here in the comments, I do agree... execution is more important. Execution in plant growing is more important than the seeds themselves... unless you lack the seeds. Some here have said that at the right moment any arbitrary number of people will discover idea X. I would agree if the subtlety of the idea is not arbitrary, however the best ideas are unexpectedly early, and therefore subtle. Do not mistake any of this as an argument for patents, or even fairness in a general sense. I know business is war. One's only recourse is carefulness, caution, the sacred texts called it wisdom.

engrocer 14y ago

Immitation is the sincerest form of flattery. A local startup raised over $300k after stealing my work and trying to pass it off as their own but they had no idea how to execute on it after they raised. They're now grasping at how to find product-market fit and they've pivoted thrice because they can't pull-off what they ripped-off. We've found companies in Europe that came up with the same idea because the verticals we work in are more evolved there. Seeing others conjuring similar ideas validates that we're on the right track in a new market ripe with opportunity.