4 ms·

Steve Lehto has an analysis of the opinion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VinCGmdj-jQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VinCGmdj-jQ One interesting point is th

by db48x 7mo ago

Steve Lehto has an analysis of the opinion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VinCGmdj-jQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VinCGmdj-jQ One interesting point is that the Judge also spent some ink criticizing the law because paying the ticket removes the ticket from your driving record. This means that habitual bad drivers can get away with the same infractions over and over again as long as they pay the fines quickly. This bypasses the State’s points system that was designed to punish repeat offenders by taking away their license. I wonder how other state’s red–light camera laws hold up? Do they have the same flaws or are they written better?

reactordev 7mo ago
Same flaws. It was all designed to make up for budget cuts and stayed when it made a dent. Once they got used to the money from it, they got complacent with how effective it actually was. This is Law Enforcement in America in a nut shell. They only care when they can’t make their pension plan payments. Rather than go out there and police, they have staffing shortages and rely on the private sector to provide services that allow them to “police” from afar or by an algorithm.
spankalee 7mo ago
Wow, that's a huge problem with that red light camera program then. The drives that run red lights around me clearly don't care much for minor consequences. The point needs to be to identify the sociopathic drivers and get them off the road.
- jacquesm 7mo ago
  You mistakenly believe that these camera systems are not functioning exactly as intended: they're a revenue stream. If they ended up shutting down the offenders that revenue stream would dry up. The sociopath you've identified is called a whale instead.
  - neutronicus 7mo ago
    Not in my jurisdiction - the biggest offenders know that there's no collection mechanism with any teeth, so they just ignore the fines [1]. FWIW, despite all this the speed cameras have been effective at reducing average speeds at problem points. [1] https://www.wmar2news.com/homepage-showcase/how-md-drivers-with-va-tags-are-getting-away-with-thousands-in-unpaid-speeding-tickets https://www.wmar2news.com/homepage-showcase/how-md-drivers-w...
- neutronicus 7mo ago
  In my jurisdiction, the GP point is irrelevant because the biggest problem drivers just ignore the fines [1]. It's very common to just have fake plates / registration, with the plan in the case of an accident to just bail out and run. [1] https://www.wmar2news.com/homepage-showcase/how-md-drivers-with-va-tags-are-getting-away-with-thousands-in-unpaid-speeding-tickets https://www.wmar2news.com/homepage-showcase/how-md-drivers-w...
stronglikedan 7mo ago
That's by design, and that's a good thing. Anything where the person actually driving the car can't be identified (i.e., tickets given by camera as opposed to in-person) shouldn't have any long term affect on anyone's personal records.
- kamarg 7mo ago
  If you can't tell who was driving, you shouldn't be sending anyone a ticket.
  - elliottkember 7mo ago
    You get a parking ticket regardless of who parked
    - hrimfaxi 7mo ago
      Is there no distinction between standing and moving violations?
      - aldonius 7mo ago
        Either way, it's bizarre that blame-assignation is anything other than defaults-to-owner.
      - elliottkember 7mo ago
        Yes, there is a distinction. But it’s irrelevant in this case because you can be ticketed for either. The speeding ticket goes to the registered owner and there are no demerit points as there is no proof of driver identity.
        db48x 7mo ago
        No, there is a difference. Parking tickets are civil infractions that can only result in a fine (or in some cases a tow, but let’s not get lost in the weeds). Running a red light, on the other hand, is a moving violation committed by the _driver_ specifically, not the owner of the vehicle. Moving violations can result in criminal penalties. Sending a ticket to the owner of the vehicle and then making them defend themselves is unconstitutional. Look, I get it. You guys are all European and think it’s perfectly normal to have to defend yourself when the government assumes that you are guilty. But here in the USA we have protections against that. The government _must_ assume that you are innocent until they can _prove_ that you are guilty. That includes not assuming that the owner of the vehicle was the one driving it, no matter how common that scenario is.
maest 7mo ago
Loosely related: There is a driver in NYC who gets almost 300 speeding tickets per year. They've paid their fines, so they're allowed to keep driving. Apparently, since the fines come from speed camera, they can't revoke their license. https://www.jalopnik.com/1836395/worst-driver-in-ny-563-tickets/ https://www.jalopnik.com/1836395/worst-driver-in-ny-563-tick...
shakahshakah 7mo ago
New Jersey abandoned their red-light camera laws after ticket challenges involving yellow-light lengths. The length should be proportional to the posted speed limit (e.g. 5.5 seconds for 50 mph), but many lights were found to have incorrect timing (e.g. 2.5 seconds for 50 mph). Also, I think at that time some questionable arrangements surfaced between the operators of the automated ticketing system(s) and the towns and/or counties involved.
- NetMageSCW 7mo ago
  My city seems to be fixing this by having yellow lights extend when it sees a car reasonably close to the intersection. And also helps by switching lights quickly based on car presence.
chupchap 7mo ago
In Australia you will get a fine and demerit points for speeding or for running through a red light. The points don't go away even if you pay the fine. If you go through a year without infractions, one point will be taken off. I think that's a fair system. More details here [https://www.nsw.gov.au/driving-boating-and-transport/demerits-penalties-and-offences/how-demerit-points-work https://www.nsw.gov.au/driving-boating-and-transport/demerit...] and here [https://www.primelawyers.com.au/traffic-law/speeding-offences-nsw/demerit-points-nsw-speeding-fines/ https://www.primelawyers.com.au/traffic-law/speeding-offence...] Coming to the part about issuing fines to the registered owner, you can nominate a different driver online here, when replying to the fine. The person nominated need to accept this as well before it is taken off the person to whom the vehicle is registered to.
- db48x 7mo ago
  Right, many other countries let you point the finger at someone else. The problem is that in the US the government is not legally allowed to even issue a ticket unless they can prove that the person they are prosecuting is the guilty party. Merely being the owner of the car is not enough.
  - chupchap 7mo ago
    Being the registered owner makes the person responsible. The owner can state it being stolen, or driven by someone else as valid reasons
    - db48x 7mo ago
      Right. I am completely aware that it works that way in many parts of the world, but in the United States of America it is unconstitutional _unless_ the state law makes it a completely civil infraction that is settled using a fine only. No points, no suspensions, no police interaction at all. Under Florida’s laws it is explicitly a misdemeanor for the _driver_ of a car to run a red light, so it is unconstitutional for a police officer or court to assume without proof that the _owner_ of the car was driving at the time the red–light camera took a photograph of the car. I understand that this blows people’s mind. People in other parts of the world tend to think that they are just as protected from their government as we are in the USA, but the truth is that in practice their governments get away with a lot of crap that doesn’t fly over here. Sometimes our government gets away with some crap for a time, until the courts catch up. Sometimes the courts even make obviously wrong rulings. Judges are only human, so that is to be expected. But on the whole it’s a pretty good system.
0xbadcafebee 7mo ago
> the Judge also spent some ink criticizing the law because paying the ticket removes the ticket from your driving record Weird thing to point out, as in Florida, if you get any traffic citation, you just hire The Ticket Clinic for ~$80. If they don't get your ticket expunged or points eliminated, you get your money back. They don't lose often. You can keep racking up tickets, but not get any points, as long as you've got $80.

by db48x 7mo ago

reactordev 7mo ago

Same flaws. It was all designed to make up for budget cuts and stayed when it made a dent. Once they got used to the money from it, they got complacent with how effective it actually was. This is Law Enforcement in America in a nut shell. They only care when they can’t make their pension plan payments. Rather than go out there and police, they have staffing shortages and rely on the private sector to provide services that allow them to “police” from afar or by an algorithm.

spankalee 7mo ago

Wow, that's a huge problem with that red light camera program then. The drives that run red lights around me clearly don't care much for minor consequences. The point needs to be to identify the sociopathic drivers and get them off the road.

jacquesm 7mo ago
You mistakenly believe that these camera systems are not functioning exactly as intended: they're a revenue stream. If they ended up shutting down the offenders that revenue stream would dry up. The sociopath you've identified is called a whale instead.
- neutronicus 7mo ago
  Not in my jurisdiction - the biggest offenders know that there's no collection mechanism with any teeth, so they just ignore the fines [1]. FWIW, despite all this the speed cameras have been effective at reducing average speeds at problem points. [1] https://www.wmar2news.com/homepage-showcase/how-md-drivers-with-va-tags-are-getting-away-with-thousands-in-unpaid-speeding-tickets https://www.wmar2news.com/homepage-showcase/how-md-drivers-w...
neutronicus 7mo ago
In my jurisdiction, the GP point is irrelevant because the biggest problem drivers just ignore the fines [1]. It's very common to just have fake plates / registration, with the plan in the case of an accident to just bail out and run. [1] https://www.wmar2news.com/homepage-showcase/how-md-drivers-with-va-tags-are-getting-away-with-thousands-in-unpaid-speeding-tickets https://www.wmar2news.com/homepage-showcase/how-md-drivers-w...

stronglikedan 7mo ago

That's by design, and that's a good thing. Anything where the person actually driving the car can't be identified (i.e., tickets given by camera as opposed to in-person) shouldn't have any long term affect on anyone's personal records.

kamarg 7mo ago
If you can't tell who was driving, you shouldn't be sending anyone a ticket.
- elliottkember 7mo ago
  You get a parking ticket regardless of who parked
  - hrimfaxi 7mo ago
    Is there no distinction between standing and moving violations?
    - aldonius 7mo ago
      Either way, it's bizarre that blame-assignation is anything other than defaults-to-owner.
    - elliottkember 7mo ago
      Yes, there is a distinction. But it’s irrelevant in this case because you can be ticketed for either. The speeding ticket goes to the registered owner and there are no demerit points as there is no proof of driver identity.
      - db48x 7mo ago
        No, there is a difference. Parking tickets are civil infractions that can only result in a fine (or in some cases a tow, but let’s not get lost in the weeds). Running a red light, on the other hand, is a moving violation committed by the _driver_ specifically, not the owner of the vehicle. Moving violations can result in criminal penalties. Sending a ticket to the owner of the vehicle and then making them defend themselves is unconstitutional. Look, I get it. You guys are all European and think it’s perfectly normal to have to defend yourself when the government assumes that you are guilty. But here in the USA we have protections against that. The government _must_ assume that you are innocent until they can _prove_ that you are guilty. That includes not assuming that the owner of the vehicle was the one driving it, no matter how common that scenario is.

maest 7mo ago

Loosely related: There is a driver in NYC who gets almost 300 speeding tickets per year. They've paid their fines, so they're allowed to keep driving. Apparently, since the fines come from speed camera, they can't revoke their license. https://www.jalopnik.com/1836395/worst-driver-in-ny-563-tickets/ https://www.jalopnik.com/1836395/worst-driver-in-ny-563-tick...

shakahshakah 7mo ago

New Jersey abandoned their red-light camera laws after ticket challenges involving yellow-light lengths. The length should be proportional to the posted speed limit (e.g. 5.5 seconds for 50 mph), but many lights were found to have incorrect timing (e.g. 2.5 seconds for 50 mph). Also, I think at that time some questionable arrangements surfaced between the operators of the automated ticketing system(s) and the towns and/or counties involved.

NetMageSCW 7mo ago
My city seems to be fixing this by having yellow lights extend when it sees a car reasonably close to the intersection. And also helps by switching lights quickly based on car presence.

chupchap 7mo ago

In Australia you will get a fine and demerit points for speeding or for running through a red light. The points don't go away even if you pay the fine. If you go through a year without infractions, one point will be taken off. I think that's a fair system. More details here [https://www.nsw.gov.au/driving-boating-and-transport/demerits-penalties-and-offences/how-demerit-points-work https://www.nsw.gov.au/driving-boating-and-transport/demerit...] and here [https://www.primelawyers.com.au/traffic-law/speeding-offences-nsw/demerit-points-nsw-speeding-fines/ https://www.primelawyers.com.au/traffic-law/speeding-offence...] Coming to the part about issuing fines to the registered owner, you can nominate a different driver online here, when replying to the fine. The person nominated need to accept this as well before it is taken off the person to whom the vehicle is registered to.

db48x 7mo ago
Right, many other countries let you point the finger at someone else. The problem is that in the US the government is not legally allowed to even issue a ticket unless they can prove that the person they are prosecuting is the guilty party. Merely being the owner of the car is not enough.
- chupchap 7mo ago
  Being the registered owner makes the person responsible. The owner can state it being stolen, or driven by someone else as valid reasons
  - db48x 7mo ago
    Right. I am completely aware that it works that way in many parts of the world, but in the United States of America it is unconstitutional _unless_ the state law makes it a completely civil infraction that is settled using a fine only. No points, no suspensions, no police interaction at all. Under Florida’s laws it is explicitly a misdemeanor for the _driver_ of a car to run a red light, so it is unconstitutional for a police officer or court to assume without proof that the _owner_ of the car was driving at the time the red–light camera took a photograph of the car. I understand that this blows people’s mind. People in other parts of the world tend to think that they are just as protected from their government as we are in the USA, but the truth is that in practice their governments get away with a lot of crap that doesn’t fly over here. Sometimes our government gets away with some crap for a time, until the courts catch up. Sometimes the courts even make obviously wrong rulings. Judges are only human, so that is to be expected. But on the whole it’s a pretty good system.

0xbadcafebee 7mo ago

> the Judge also spent some ink criticizing the law because paying the ticket removes the ticket from your driving record Weird thing to point out, as in Florida, if you get any traffic citation, you just hire The Ticket Clinic for ~$80. If they don't get your ticket expunged or points eliminated, you get your money back. They don't lose often. You can keep racking up tickets, but not get any points, as long as you've got $80.