5 ms·

"the solid base of electricity generation disappeared and thus the trust in electricity for transport disappeared" I'm sorry, but WTF? This is the most unhing

by jonp888 7mo ago

"the solid base of electricity generation disappeared and thus the trust in electricity for transport disappeared" I'm sorry, but WTF? This is the most unhinged drivel about German nuclear I have ever read on HN, and that's saying something. There no problem with "trust in electricity", whatsoever, nor is there any lack of a "solid base". There has been no electricity grid collapse in Germany for decades(in stark contrast to the US, or f.e. Spain). Any problems with electrcity have been due to terrorism or building errors. Even with that, in case you haven't noticed, EV cars run on batteries and don't need constant power. Perhaps for "preppers" or people living in remote areas it would be a factor, but I have never in my life heard anyone connect the use of EV power with the power station the charging comes from or how reliable the grid is.

sazz 7mo ago
WTF about your understanding of the German power grid, I would say. Germany is not in a position to continuously meet its own electricity needs, but is dependent on daily aid deliveries of electricity from abroad. The electricity needs of industry cannot be met in a market-oriented manner, but taxpayers have to spend additional money so that industry can continue to produce at all. The absurdly high prices for electricity in Germany prevent any competitiveness. Ignoring all of this can only be described as WTF – what country do you actually live in?
- jhbruhn 7mo ago
  Energy scientist in Germany here. Germany could fully supply it's national grid with German energy production. We just don't do it because it's cheaper to buy i.e. heavily subsidized nuclear power from France, or other sources. In the end, it's all markets across the whole EU - by design. Why should it not be, the European energy grid is interconnected for a reason.
  - sazz 7mo ago
    [flagged]
    - adrianN 7mo ago
      We have enough fossil capacity that we don’t use for price reasons.
  - UltraSane 7mo ago
    As a Germany energy scientist you should be very angry that right now according to ElectricityMaps.com Germany is emitting about 17 times as much CO2 per watt as France is.
    - jhbruhn 7mo ago
      waves fist
      - UltraSane 7mo ago
        Germany also has some of the most expensive electricity in the world. It is so expensive it is making some industries unprofitable. BASF, a major German chemical company, has implemented plant closures due to high production costs. Most countries choose either cheap and dirty or expensive and clean for electricity but Germany chose expensive AND dirty.
  - watt 7mo ago
    In 2010 I was paying 10 cents per kWh. In 2025 I am paying 36 cents per kWh. What ever happened in these 15 years, it is an absolute death spiral.
  - flakeoil 7mo ago
    > Germany could fully supply it's national grid with German energy production. With coal. And gas imported from Russia and by boat from the USA.
- rob74 7mo ago
  What you call "aid from abroad" is generally called a functioning wide area synchronous grid (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wide_area_synchronous_grid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wide_area_synchronous_grid) which covers most of the EU plus some Balkan states, Moldova, Ukraine, Turkey and the northwestern corner of Africa. So Germany can sell power to others when renewables are generating more than it needs (which is often), and import power, not necessarily because it couldn't produce it, but because importing it can be cheaper than e.g. starting up an additional backup plant. This is nothing special and has been working reliably for decades.
  - sazz 7mo ago
    That's right, Germany sells electricity to other countries during the day and buys electricity in the evening because there is no sun then. The problem is that other countries also have solar and wind power during the day and don't need this electricity at all. That's why Germany has to “sell” this surplus electricity, even though no one needs it. To ensure that the electricity is still "purchased", Germany has to pay money for it. In the evening, Germany has to pay money to buy back the missing electricity. Paying money to have something purchased is generally referred to as garbage fees.
    - patall 7mo ago
      That does not seem to be a long term problem. Wind and solar can be down regulated with ease (and within fractions of a second), a negative prices only happen because producers got a flat-fee per kWh which is pretty much phase-out now. The problem is rather that Germany (plus Luxembourg) is still a single price zone, i.e when wind is blowing in Hamburg, the per-kWh price in Passau is also nill. While this is nice for Bavaria (the main culprit, as usual), there is an enormous cost for this in the form of re-dispatch fees as long as the grid is not strengthened a lot.
      - FrojoS 7mo ago
        The main culprit as usual? They have been financing the whole gaga show for years.
- lejalv 7mo ago
  > The electricity needs of industry cannot be met in a market-oriented manner Do you care to elaborate? AFAIK, the EU electricity market is... a market? The design is debatable, as always with these things. Perhaps you wanted to say something precise about subsidies? One important consideration is that Germany profited from cheap Russian gas, and continued building Nord Stream 2 post Russian operations in Ukraine in 2014. This is a bet that a huge geopolitical risk would not actualize, which it did in 2022.

by jonp888 7mo ago

sazz 7mo ago

WTF about your understanding of the German power grid, I would say. Germany is not in a position to continuously meet its own electricity needs, but is dependent on daily aid deliveries of electricity from abroad. The electricity needs of industry cannot be met in a market-oriented manner, but taxpayers have to spend additional money so that industry can continue to produce at all. The absurdly high prices for electricity in Germany prevent any competitiveness. Ignoring all of this can only be described as WTF – what country do you actually live in?

jhbruhn 7mo ago
Energy scientist in Germany here. Germany could fully supply it's national grid with German energy production. We just don't do it because it's cheaper to buy i.e. heavily subsidized nuclear power from France, or other sources. In the end, it's all markets across the whole EU - by design. Why should it not be, the European energy grid is interconnected for a reason.
- sazz 7mo ago
  [flagged]
  - adrianN 7mo ago
    We have enough fossil capacity that we don’t use for price reasons.
- UltraSane 7mo ago
  As a Germany energy scientist you should be very angry that right now according to ElectricityMaps.com Germany is emitting about 17 times as much CO2 per watt as France is.
  - jhbruhn 7mo ago
    waves fist
    - UltraSane 7mo ago
      Germany also has some of the most expensive electricity in the world. It is so expensive it is making some industries unprofitable. BASF, a major German chemical company, has implemented plant closures due to high production costs. Most countries choose either cheap and dirty or expensive and clean for electricity but Germany chose expensive AND dirty.
- watt 7mo ago
  In 2010 I was paying 10 cents per kWh. In 2025 I am paying 36 cents per kWh. What ever happened in these 15 years, it is an absolute death spiral.
- flakeoil 7mo ago
  > Germany could fully supply it's national grid with German energy production. With coal. And gas imported from Russia and by boat from the USA.
rob74 7mo ago
What you call "aid from abroad" is generally called a functioning wide area synchronous grid (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wide_area_synchronous_grid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wide_area_synchronous_grid) which covers most of the EU plus some Balkan states, Moldova, Ukraine, Turkey and the northwestern corner of Africa. So Germany can sell power to others when renewables are generating more than it needs (which is often), and import power, not necessarily because it couldn't produce it, but because importing it can be cheaper than e.g. starting up an additional backup plant. This is nothing special and has been working reliably for decades.
- sazz 7mo ago
  That's right, Germany sells electricity to other countries during the day and buys electricity in the evening because there is no sun then. The problem is that other countries also have solar and wind power during the day and don't need this electricity at all. That's why Germany has to “sell” this surplus electricity, even though no one needs it. To ensure that the electricity is still "purchased", Germany has to pay money for it. In the evening, Germany has to pay money to buy back the missing electricity. Paying money to have something purchased is generally referred to as garbage fees.
  - patall 7mo ago
    That does not seem to be a long term problem. Wind and solar can be down regulated with ease (and within fractions of a second), a negative prices only happen because producers got a flat-fee per kWh which is pretty much phase-out now. The problem is rather that Germany (plus Luxembourg) is still a single price zone, i.e when wind is blowing in Hamburg, the per-kWh price in Passau is also nill. While this is nice for Bavaria (the main culprit, as usual), there is an enormous cost for this in the form of re-dispatch fees as long as the grid is not strengthened a lot.
    - FrojoS 7mo ago
      The main culprit as usual? They have been financing the whole gaga show for years.
lejalv 7mo ago
> The electricity needs of industry cannot be met in a market-oriented manner Do you care to elaborate? AFAIK, the EU electricity market is... a market? The design is debatable, as always with these things. Perhaps you wanted to say something precise about subsidies? One important consideration is that Germany profited from cheap Russian gas, and continued building Nord Stream 2 post Russian operations in Ukraine in 2014. This is a bet that a huge geopolitical risk would not actualize, which it did in 2022.