5 ms·

Maybe the solution is making native (non-java) development on Android a first-class citizen.

by activepeanut 14y ago

wtracy 14y ago
Can you elaborate on why you think it's currently a second-class citizen?
- pspeter3 14y ago
  All apps on Android require Java to run currently in some way or another unless you want to have a purely browser based game. At the same time, Google sits on the fastest javascript interpreter out there. It would be great if Android could expose native permissions to Javascript and have web apps like Mozilla's Firefox OS. I know they've made a push for holo themes and I would be willing to write in a different markup language to avoid writing in Java
  - georgemcbay 14y ago
    I don't think JavaScript is what activepeanut had in mind when he(?) was talking about "native" development. HTML5 is a wasteland for most types of games as well. Allow Android games to be fully written in C/C++/Go with a fat binary format to support ARM/x86 and now we're talking. You can kind-of-sort-of do native development in Android using the NDK but it is much more of a pain in the ass than it should be because Android's userland was designed so tightly around Dalvik and Google has always treated the NDK as a bit of a red-headed stepchild (eg. it was never officially supported on the x86 Google TV boxes).
    - chii 14y ago
      i dont understand why having C/C++ would stop the "wasteland" - i don't believe java to be an inferior language, and as you have claimed, the debugging/IDE support for java is much better than NDK. The only possible reason having better support for C/C++ development is so that ports are easier (assuming the original is written in C++).
      - yusefnapora 14y ago
        > the debugging/IDE support for java is much better than NDK. That's kind of the point; the tooling for native development is crap compared to working in Java, which, while a fine language for lots of purposes, brings a few performance penalties that can inhibit game development. Apart from the overhead of a VM, games often require precise timings that are difficult to achieve when a garbage collector can be running at unpredictable times. And I think you're dismissing the porting angle a bit quickly. When faced with the choice between converting your entire codebase to a different language, using difficult tools with poor debugging support, or starting a new project on a platform you're already successful on, which would you choose?
      - Lerc 14y ago
        The reason for having better support for C/C++ is that you shouldn't force developers to use tools that they would rather not. If you want more people to develop for your platform let them develop for your platform the way they are comfortable. Support C, Ruby, Pascal, Lua, Lisp, BASIC and even Logo. Not perl though, That'd just be sadistic.
- TwoBit 14y ago
  Native Android devlopment (i.e. C/C++) is a major PITA. Biggest reason: there still is no debugger for C/C++ code; you have to do all debugging with printf. In 2012. I'm not kidding. Android NDK didn't even support the C++ Standard Library until recently. Another reason why Android is losing on the developer front is that development environment setup and usage, even for Java, is worse than Apple's. It's usage of Eclipse is like duct tape and glue.
  - cageface 14y ago
    IntelliJ is a much better Android IDE than eclipse and far superior to Xcode.
    - kgarten 14y ago
      I agree ... still I have the problem that the Android development chain on my Mac breaks from time to time. Disclaimer: I'm developing for iOS and I'm quite new to Android (playing with some code from time to time). Yet, debugging with a galaxy nexus on usb is buggy for me (sometimes it works sometimes it won't). reboot might help ... I just love instruments in xcode. As code editor I use MacVim (faster and a much cleaner look for me compared to IntelliJ as it's a coca citizen and not a Java GUI app ... ).
      - cageface 14y ago
        I agree iOS tool chain is more mature overall. I can't imagine giving up all the code editing features of IntelliJ for any generic text editor though. All that java and XML without code completion and refactoring is just too horrible to contemplate. If you're determined to go that route then why not just ditch the IDE entirely and do everything from the command line?
        kgarten 14y ago
        MacVim has good code-completing and most of the advanced features out of the box, if you use YADR or similar ( https://github.com/skwp/dotfiles https://github.com/skwp/dotfiles ). I like to have the same environment regardless which language I'm using ( objective-c, python, java ... latex, html). I usually use Xcode/IntelliJ for refactoring and some more advanced functionality.

Maybe the solution is making native (non-java) development on Android a first-class citizen.

wtracy 14y ago

Can you elaborate on why you think it's currently a second-class citizen?

pspeter3 14y ago
All apps on Android require Java to run currently in some way or another unless you want to have a purely browser based game. At the same time, Google sits on the fastest javascript interpreter out there. It would be great if Android could expose native permissions to Javascript and have web apps like Mozilla's Firefox OS. I know they've made a push for holo themes and I would be willing to write in a different markup language to avoid writing in Java
- georgemcbay 14y ago
  I don't think JavaScript is what activepeanut had in mind when he(?) was talking about "native" development. HTML5 is a wasteland for most types of games as well. Allow Android games to be fully written in C/C++/Go with a fat binary format to support ARM/x86 and now we're talking. You can kind-of-sort-of do native development in Android using the NDK but it is much more of a pain in the ass than it should be because Android's userland was designed so tightly around Dalvik and Google has always treated the NDK as a bit of a red-headed stepchild (eg. it was never officially supported on the x86 Google TV boxes).
  - chii 14y ago
    i dont understand why having C/C++ would stop the "wasteland" - i don't believe java to be an inferior language, and as you have claimed, the debugging/IDE support for java is much better than NDK. The only possible reason having better support for C/C++ development is so that ports are easier (assuming the original is written in C++).
    - yusefnapora 14y ago
      > the debugging/IDE support for java is much better than NDK. That's kind of the point; the tooling for native development is crap compared to working in Java, which, while a fine language for lots of purposes, brings a few performance penalties that can inhibit game development. Apart from the overhead of a VM, games often require precise timings that are difficult to achieve when a garbage collector can be running at unpredictable times. And I think you're dismissing the porting angle a bit quickly. When faced with the choice between converting your entire codebase to a different language, using difficult tools with poor debugging support, or starting a new project on a platform you're already successful on, which would you choose?
    - Lerc 14y ago
      The reason for having better support for C/C++ is that you shouldn't force developers to use tools that they would rather not. If you want more people to develop for your platform let them develop for your platform the way they are comfortable. Support C, Ruby, Pascal, Lua, Lisp, BASIC and even Logo. Not perl though, That'd just be sadistic.
TwoBit 14y ago
Native Android devlopment (i.e. C/C++) is a major PITA. Biggest reason: there still is no debugger for C/C++ code; you have to do all debugging with printf. In 2012. I'm not kidding. Android NDK didn't even support the C++ Standard Library until recently. Another reason why Android is losing on the developer front is that development environment setup and usage, even for Java, is worse than Apple's. It's usage of Eclipse is like duct tape and glue.
- cageface 14y ago
  IntelliJ is a much better Android IDE than eclipse and far superior to Xcode.
  - kgarten 14y ago
    I agree ... still I have the problem that the Android development chain on my Mac breaks from time to time. Disclaimer: I'm developing for iOS and I'm quite new to Android (playing with some code from time to time). Yet, debugging with a galaxy nexus on usb is buggy for me (sometimes it works sometimes it won't). reboot might help ... I just love instruments in xcode. As code editor I use MacVim (faster and a much cleaner look for me compared to IntelliJ as it's a coca citizen and not a Java GUI app ... ).
    - cageface 14y ago
      I agree iOS tool chain is more mature overall. I can't imagine giving up all the code editing features of IntelliJ for any generic text editor though. All that java and XML without code completion and refactoring is just too horrible to contemplate. If you're determined to go that route then why not just ditch the IDE entirely and do everything from the command line?
      - kgarten 14y ago
        MacVim has good code-completing and most of the advanced features out of the box, if you use YADR or similar ( https://github.com/skwp/dotfiles https://github.com/skwp/dotfiles ). I like to have the same environment regardless which language I'm using ( objective-c, python, java ... latex, html). I usually use Xcode/IntelliJ for refactoring and some more advanced functionality.