5 ms·

I feel you, but hear me out. OP is right. I've wanted pretty much everything he's talking about here for years, I just never thought of all of this in as quite

by sam0x17 7mo ago

I feel you, but hear me out. OP is right. I've wanted pretty much everything he's talking about here for years, I just never thought of all of this in as quite a formal way as he has. We need the ability to say "this piece of code can't panic". It's super important in the domains I work in. We also need the ability to say "this piece of code can't be non-deterministic". It's also super important in the domains I work in. Having language level support for something like this where I add an extra word to my function def and the compiler guarantees the above would be groundbreaking

chirsz 7mo ago
You can see: * no-panic: https://docs.rs/no-panic/latest/no_panic/ https://docs.rs/no-panic/latest/no_panic/ * Safe Rust has no undefined behavior: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39564755 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39564755
- andriy_koval 7mo ago
  would be great to have no alloc too as op requested.
rapnie 7mo ago
Perhaps there are similarities to Scala, from my anecdotal observation. Coming from Java and doing the Scala coursera course years ago, it feels like arriving in a candy shop. All the wonderful language features are there, true power yours to wield. And then you bump into the code lines crafted by the experts, and they are line for line so 'smart' they take a real long time to figure out how the heck it all fits together. People say "Rust is more complex to onboard to, but it is worth it", but a lot of the onboarding hurdle is the extra complexity added in by experts being smart. And it may be a reason why a language doesn't get the adoption that the creators hoped for (Scala?). Rust does not have issues with popularity, and the high onboarding barrier, may have positive impact eventually where "Just rewrite it in Rust" is no more, and people only choose Rust where it is most appropriate. Use the right language for the tool. The complexity of Rust made me check out Gleam [0], a language designed for simplicity, ease of use, and developer experience. A wholly different design philosophy. But not less powerful, as a BEAM language that compiles to Erlang, but also compiles to Javascript if you want to do regular web stuff. [0] https://gleam.run https://gleam.run
- ChadNauseam 7mo ago
  I honestly just don't believe that Rust is more complex to onboard to compared to languages like Python. It just does not match my experience at all. I've been a professional rust developer for about three years. Every time I look at python code, it's doing something insane where the function argument definition basically looks like line noise with args and kwargs, with no types, so it's impossible to guess what the parameeters will be for any given function. Every python developer I know makes heavy use of the repl just to figure out what methods they can call on some return value of some underdocumented method of a library they're using. The first time I read pandas code, I saw something along the lines of df[df["age"] < 3] and thought I was having a stroke. Yet python has a reputation for being easy to learn and use. We have a python developer on our team and it probably took me about a day to onboard him to rust and get him able to make changes to our (fairly complicated) Rust codebase. Don't get me wrong, rust has plenty of "weird" features too, for example higher rank trait bounds have a ridiculous syntax and are going to be hard for most people to understand. But, almost no one will ever have to use a higher rank trait bound. I encounter such things much more rarely in rust than in almost any other mainstream language.
  - rapnie 7mo ago
    The language itself is not more complex to onboard. For Scala also not. It feels great to have all these language features to ones proposal. The added complexity is in the way how expert code is written. The experts are empowered and productive, but heightens the barrier of entry for newcomers by their practices. Note that they also might expertly write more accessible code to avoid the issue, and then I agree with (though I can't compare to Python, never used it).
    - thomasmg 7mo ago
      Hm, you claim that Rust and Scala are not more complex to onboard than Python... but then you say you never used Python? If that's the case, how do you know? Having used both, I do think Rust is harder to onboard, just because there is more syntax that you need to learn. And Rust is a lot more verbose. And that's before you are exposed to the borrow checker.
awesan 7mo ago
IMO rust started at this from the wrong direction. Comparing to something like zig which just cannot panic unless the developer wrote the thing that does the panic, cannot allocate unless the developer wrote the allocation, etc. Rust instead has all these implicit things that just happen, and now needs ways to specify that in particular cases, it doesn't.
- tialaramex 7mo ago
  Huh? It seems to me that in these respects the two languages are almost identical. If I tell the program to panic, it panics, and if I divide an integer by zero it... panics and either those are both "the developer wrote the thing" or neither is.
  - awesan 7mo ago
    In Zig, dividing by 0 does not panic unless you decide that it should or go out of your way to use unsafe primitives [1]. Same for trying to allocate more memory than is available. The general difference is as follows (IMO): Rust tries to prevent developers from doing bad things, then has to include ways to avoid these checks for cases where it cannot prove that bad things are actually OK. Zig (and many others such as Odin, Jai, etc.) allow anything by default, but surface the fact that issues can occur in its API design. In practice the result is the same, but Rust needs to be much more complex both to do the proving and to allow the developers to ignore its rules. [1]: https://ziglang.org/documentation/0.15.2/std/#std.math.divExact https://ziglang.org/documentation/0.15.2/std/#std.math.divEx...
    - ivanbakel 7mo ago
      Could you clarify what's going on in the Zig docs[0], then? My reading of them is that Zig definitely allows you to try to divide by 0 in a way the compiler doesn't catch, and this results in a panic at runtime. I'd be interested if this weren't true, since the only feasible compiler solutions to preventing division-by-0 errors are either: defining the behaviour, which always ends up surprising people later on, or; incredibly cumbersome or underperformant type systems/analyses which ensure that denominators are never 0. It doesn't look like Zig does either of these. [0]: https://ziglang.org/documentation/master/#Division-by-Zero https://ziglang.org/documentation/master/#Division-by-Zero
QuantumNoodle 7mo ago
I have no argument against using the right tool for a job. Decorating a function with a keyword to have more compile-time guarantees does sound great, but I bet it comes with strings attached that affect how it can be used which will lead to strange business logic. Anecdotally, I have not (perhaps yet) run into a situation where I needed more language features, I felt rust had enough primatives that I could adapt the current feature set to my needs. Yes, at times I had to scrap what I was working on to rewrite it another way so I can have compile-time guarantees. Yes, here language features offer speed in implementing. Could you share a situation where the behavior is necessary? I am curious if I could work around it with the current feature set. Perhaps I take issue with peers that throw bleeding edge features in situations that don't warrant them. Last old-man anecdote: as a hobbyist woodworker it pains me to see people buying expensive tools to accomplish something. They almost lack creativity to use their current tools they have. "If I had xyz tool I would build something so magnificent" they say. This amounts to having many, low-quality single-purpose built tools where a single high-quality table saw could fit the need. FYI, a table-saw could suit 90% of your cutting/shaping needs with a right jig. I don't want this to happen in rust.
- aw1621107 7mo ago
  > Could you share a situation where the behavior is necessary? The effects mentioned in the article are not too uncommon in embedded systems, particularly if they are subject to more stringent standards (e.g., hard realtime, safety-critical, etc.). In such situations predictability is paramount, and that tends to correspond to proving the absence of the effects in the OP.
  - QuantumNoodle 7mo ago
    Ah, the embedded application. Very valid point. I'm guilty of forgetting about that discipline. I do wonder if it is possible to bin certain features to certain, uh, distributions(?), of rust? I'm having trouble articulating what I mean but in essence so users do not get tempted to use all these bells and whistles when they are aimed at a certain domain or application? Or are such language features beneficial for all applications? For example, sim cards are mini computers that actually implement the JVM and you can write java and run it on sim cards (!). But there is a subset of java that is allowed and not all features are available. In this case it is due to compute/resource restrictions, but something to a similar tune for rust, is that possible?

by sam0x17 7mo ago

chirsz 7mo ago

You can see: * no-panic: https://docs.rs/no-panic/latest/no_panic/ https://docs.rs/no-panic/latest/no_panic/ * Safe Rust has no undefined behavior: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39564755 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39564755

andriy_koval 7mo ago
would be great to have no alloc too as op requested.

rapnie 7mo ago

Perhaps there are similarities to Scala, from my anecdotal observation. Coming from Java and doing the Scala coursera course years ago, it feels like arriving in a candy shop. All the wonderful language features are there, true power yours to wield. And then you bump into the code lines crafted by the experts, and they are line for line so 'smart' they take a real long time to figure out how the heck it all fits together. People say "Rust is more complex to onboard to, but it is worth it", but a lot of the onboarding hurdle is the extra complexity added in by experts being smart. And it may be a reason why a language doesn't get the adoption that the creators hoped for (Scala?). Rust does not have issues with popularity, and the high onboarding barrier, may have positive impact eventually where "Just rewrite it in Rust" is no more, and people only choose Rust where it is most appropriate. Use the right language for the tool. The complexity of Rust made me check out Gleam [0], a language designed for simplicity, ease of use, and developer experience. A wholly different design philosophy. But not less powerful, as a BEAM language that compiles to Erlang, but also compiles to Javascript if you want to do regular web stuff. [0] https://gleam.run https://gleam.run

ChadNauseam 7mo ago
I honestly just don't believe that Rust is more complex to onboard to compared to languages like Python. It just does not match my experience at all. I've been a professional rust developer for about three years. Every time I look at python code, it's doing something insane where the function argument definition basically looks like line noise with args and kwargs, with no types, so it's impossible to guess what the parameeters will be for any given function. Every python developer I know makes heavy use of the repl just to figure out what methods they can call on some return value of some underdocumented method of a library they're using. The first time I read pandas code, I saw something along the lines of df[df["age"] < 3] and thought I was having a stroke. Yet python has a reputation for being easy to learn and use. We have a python developer on our team and it probably took me about a day to onboard him to rust and get him able to make changes to our (fairly complicated) Rust codebase. Don't get me wrong, rust has plenty of "weird" features too, for example higher rank trait bounds have a ridiculous syntax and are going to be hard for most people to understand. But, almost no one will ever have to use a higher rank trait bound. I encounter such things much more rarely in rust than in almost any other mainstream language.
- rapnie 7mo ago
  The language itself is not more complex to onboard. For Scala also not. It feels great to have all these language features to ones proposal. The added complexity is in the way how expert code is written. The experts are empowered and productive, but heightens the barrier of entry for newcomers by their practices. Note that they also might expertly write more accessible code to avoid the issue, and then I agree with (though I can't compare to Python, never used it).
  - thomasmg 7mo ago
    Hm, you claim that Rust and Scala are not more complex to onboard than Python... but then you say you never used Python? If that's the case, how do you know? Having used both, I do think Rust is harder to onboard, just because there is more syntax that you need to learn. And Rust is a lot more verbose. And that's before you are exposed to the borrow checker.

awesan 7mo ago

IMO rust started at this from the wrong direction. Comparing to something like zig which just cannot panic unless the developer wrote the thing that does the panic, cannot allocate unless the developer wrote the allocation, etc. Rust instead has all these implicit things that just happen, and now needs ways to specify that in particular cases, it doesn't.

tialaramex 7mo ago
Huh? It seems to me that in these respects the two languages are almost identical. If I tell the program to panic, it panics, and if I divide an integer by zero it... panics and either those are both "the developer wrote the thing" or neither is.
- awesan 7mo ago
  In Zig, dividing by 0 does not panic unless you decide that it should or go out of your way to use unsafe primitives [1]. Same for trying to allocate more memory than is available. The general difference is as follows (IMO): Rust tries to prevent developers from doing bad things, then has to include ways to avoid these checks for cases where it cannot prove that bad things are actually OK. Zig (and many others such as Odin, Jai, etc.) allow anything by default, but surface the fact that issues can occur in its API design. In practice the result is the same, but Rust needs to be much more complex both to do the proving and to allow the developers to ignore its rules. [1]: https://ziglang.org/documentation/0.15.2/std/#std.math.divExact https://ziglang.org/documentation/0.15.2/std/#std.math.divEx...
  - ivanbakel 7mo ago
    Could you clarify what's going on in the Zig docs[0], then? My reading of them is that Zig definitely allows you to try to divide by 0 in a way the compiler doesn't catch, and this results in a panic at runtime. I'd be interested if this weren't true, since the only feasible compiler solutions to preventing division-by-0 errors are either: defining the behaviour, which always ends up surprising people later on, or; incredibly cumbersome or underperformant type systems/analyses which ensure that denominators are never 0. It doesn't look like Zig does either of these. [0]: https://ziglang.org/documentation/master/#Division-by-Zero https://ziglang.org/documentation/master/#Division-by-Zero

QuantumNoodle 7mo ago

I have no argument against using the right tool for a job. Decorating a function with a keyword to have more compile-time guarantees does sound great, but I bet it comes with strings attached that affect how it can be used which will lead to strange business logic. Anecdotally, I have not (perhaps yet) run into a situation where I needed more language features, I felt rust had enough primatives that I could adapt the current feature set to my needs. Yes, at times I had to scrap what I was working on to rewrite it another way so I can have compile-time guarantees. Yes, here language features offer speed in implementing. Could you share a situation where the behavior is necessary? I am curious if I could work around it with the current feature set. Perhaps I take issue with peers that throw bleeding edge features in situations that don't warrant them. Last old-man anecdote: as a hobbyist woodworker it pains me to see people buying expensive tools to accomplish something. They almost lack creativity to use their current tools they have. "If I had xyz tool I would build something so magnificent" they say. This amounts to having many, low-quality single-purpose built tools where a single high-quality table saw could fit the need. FYI, a table-saw could suit 90% of your cutting/shaping needs with a right jig. I don't want this to happen in rust.

aw1621107 7mo ago
> Could you share a situation where the behavior is necessary? The effects mentioned in the article are not too uncommon in embedded systems, particularly if they are subject to more stringent standards (e.g., hard realtime, safety-critical, etc.). In such situations predictability is paramount, and that tends to correspond to proving the absence of the effects in the OP.
- QuantumNoodle 7mo ago
  Ah, the embedded application. Very valid point. I'm guilty of forgetting about that discipline. I do wonder if it is possible to bin certain features to certain, uh, distributions(?), of rust? I'm having trouble articulating what I mean but in essence so users do not get tempted to use all these bells and whistles when they are aimed at a certain domain or application? Or are such language features beneficial for all applications? For example, sim cards are mini computers that actually implement the JVM and you can write java and run it on sim cards (!). But there is a subset of java that is allowed and not all features are available. In this case it is due to compute/resource restrictions, but something to a similar tune for rust, is that possible?