4 ms·

To the Polypropylene Makers

88 points by raldi 7mo ago

readthenotes1 7mo ago
There's a story of the US war machine making a bunker buster bomb back during the first Gulf war doing something similar... https://www.ausairpower.net/GBU-28.html https://www.ausairpower.net/GBU-28.html
- JohnnyLarue 7mo ago
  [dead]
littlestymaar 7mo ago
> If the workers had been expected to do this for normal wages, this wouldn't have happened. I know some people really believe that people are only motivated by monetary incentives, but this isn't the reality of mankind. People do make sacrifice without monetary compensation all the time. (And many, many, did during covid) Unlike what microeconomics-obsessed people think, workers don't make sophistivated economic calculations, instead they mostly care about being treated fairly. And I glad people aren't like how microeconomics model them, because the world simply wouldn't work otherwise.
- benj111 7mo ago
  True. The other side of 'fair' in this situation is what was the company earning. Busting a gut to make some shareholders/managers loads of money isn't exactly fair if you aren't also being rewarded. On the other hand, in the UK the NHS has traditionally paid people extra on the understanding that these things happen. But when it did happen the staff were asking for even more. I know this probably comes across as right wing, but my point is how we reward people for black swan events.
  - littlestymaar 7mo ago
    > Busting a gut to make some shareholders/managers loads of money isn't exactly fair if you aren't also being rewarded. Exactly. But it's not a matter of “being paid more than the marginal value of the additional work” as microeconomics tend to frame those things. Symmetrically, people routinely accept pay cut or degraded work conditions when the company isn't going well, even though it makes no sense from a game theory perspective (it's basically a prisoners' dilemma yet people cooperate most of the time).
renewiltord 7mo ago
[flagged]
- bartvk 7mo ago
  Knowing what you knew at that specific time, you did the right thing with your donation. Kudos.
ansgri 7mo ago
Polypropylene is great: it revolutionized residential plumbing, at least in countries that adopted it (apparently not the US). With PP tubes you can weld any complex plumbing with like $50 worth of tools and minimum skills. The only drawback is significant thermal expansion, but they’re flexible enough that they won’t break even if you forget to design around that.
- stephen_g 7mo ago
  Isn’t that cross-linked polyethylene (PEX), not PP?
  - ansgri 7mo ago
    No, PEX is different. PEX is flexible, sometimes more convenient but requires more specialized and expensive tools to install properly.
    - Amezarak 7mo ago
      You can install pex with just a crimping tool that runs around that price.
  - antonvs 7mo ago
    Not sure what the other comment is referring to, but you’re right that PEX is much more flexible than PP. It’s commonly used in the US for residential plumbing, and is easier and quicker to install than PP, which is a big reason PP hasn’t replaced it (in the US).
    - ansgri 7mo ago
      Rechecked now, PEX became way more accessible it seems. Rehau-style toolkits used to cost several hundreds.
- RobotToaster 7mo ago
  I prefer copper and not having micro plastics in my water.
dsign 7mo ago
> The company would compensate them well: full wages for the whole time, even when sleeping, and a paid week off after. Only a week??? I mean, we are all going to be replaced with AI any day now, but were it not the case, I'm fully expecting to see an American company to offer, as a benefit, "we will collect and bring your remains to the workplace if you by accident die outside."
- steve_adams_86 7mo ago
  I understood that to mean they were paid on their week off. They would then return to the factory.
hilliardfarmer 7mo ago
Great article but it should have included some remarks about how unnecessary, fruitless and a waste of time and resources it all was. Are people on average still not able to accept the whole thing was idiotic from start to finish? The very idea masking ever helped a single person avoid getting covid is just stilly at this point, right? Otherwise we'd still be doing it or at least getting the vaccine, I don't know anyone that's gotten it the last 3 years. Article would have been better from the angle of, "look at all the stupid stuff people were doing, ha" not, "these people were HEROES!" At best they were misled, at worst, profiteer idiots.
- wpm 7mo ago
  Once you get the vaccine you generally only need a few boosters and you're done. I haven't gotten a diphtheria vax since I was a child. What a waste of time! If masks don't do anything why do surgeons wear them?
  - blacksmith_tb 7mo ago
    That's the nuance missing from the parent's snark, masks are most effective at preventing the wearer from transmitting infections to the people around them (especially important in an operating theater). Masks may also help prevent the wearer from inhaling airborne pathogens, though they're less effective there.
    - bsder 7mo ago
      Also missing from the discussion is that it is easy to prove that an N95 mask works because the effect is so dramatic. The fact that the efficacy of a surgical mask is more difficult to prove does not mean that it doesn't work. And, as you point out, the major benefit is to the people around you so that you don't unintentionally spread the disease before you realize you have it.
- pingou 7mo ago
  I think the main point was to flatten the curve, as hospitals were overloaded. Masks (at least the better ones) did reduce the likelihood of getting covid, and people didn't have the antibodies they have now.
londons_explore 7mo ago
One should consider how futures prices impact this economics model. This factory could afford to upscale because they could sell their product for a much higher price, and pay their workers much more to do so. However if they had already sold the factories output for the regular price via a futures contract (ie. 1 ton of polypropylene for delivery in June for $2000), then the story would be different. Futures contracts are widely used as a way to take the risk out of doing things, but the side effect is your economy loses all incentive to be flexible to changing needs.
- kjshsh123 7mo ago
  If demand increases for PPE (e.g. a righward shift of the demand curve) because of a pandemic, then prices increase but quantity demanded increases as well. They may have existing futures contracts at the prior price and quantity but if quantity demanded has increased, then that means there are new orders as well that would be at the new, higher, market price. The article is about them increasing their output. They could have sold the factories previous expected output via a futures contract. That doesn't stop them increasing output and selling in excess of any futures contracts.
stefantalpalaru 7mo ago
[dead]

88 points by raldi 7mo ago

There's a story of the US war machine making a bunker buster bomb back during the first Gulf war doing something similar... https://www.ausairpower.net/GBU-28.html https://www.ausairpower.net/GBU-28.html

JohnnyLarue 7mo ago
[dead]

littlestymaar 7mo ago

> If the workers had been expected to do this for normal wages, this wouldn't have happened. I know some people really believe that people are only motivated by monetary incentives, but this isn't the reality of mankind. People do make sacrifice without monetary compensation all the time. (And many, many, did during covid) Unlike what microeconomics-obsessed people think, workers don't make sophistivated economic calculations, instead they mostly care about being treated fairly. And I glad people aren't like how microeconomics model them, because the world simply wouldn't work otherwise.

benj111 7mo ago
True. The other side of 'fair' in this situation is what was the company earning. Busting a gut to make some shareholders/managers loads of money isn't exactly fair if you aren't also being rewarded. On the other hand, in the UK the NHS has traditionally paid people extra on the understanding that these things happen. But when it did happen the staff were asking for even more. I know this probably comes across as right wing, but my point is how we reward people for black swan events.
- littlestymaar 7mo ago
  > Busting a gut to make some shareholders/managers loads of money isn't exactly fair if you aren't also being rewarded. Exactly. But it's not a matter of “being paid more than the marginal value of the additional work” as microeconomics tend to frame those things. Symmetrically, people routinely accept pay cut or degraded work conditions when the company isn't going well, even though it makes no sense from a game theory perspective (it's basically a prisoners' dilemma yet people cooperate most of the time).

renewiltord 7mo ago

[flagged]

bartvk 7mo ago
Knowing what you knew at that specific time, you did the right thing with your donation. Kudos.

ansgri 7mo ago

Polypropylene is great: it revolutionized residential plumbing, at least in countries that adopted it (apparently not the US). With PP tubes you can weld any complex plumbing with like $50 worth of tools and minimum skills. The only drawback is significant thermal expansion, but they’re flexible enough that they won’t break even if you forget to design around that.

stephen_g 7mo ago
Isn’t that cross-linked polyethylene (PEX), not PP?
- ansgri 7mo ago
  No, PEX is different. PEX is flexible, sometimes more convenient but requires more specialized and expensive tools to install properly.
  - Amezarak 7mo ago
    You can install pex with just a crimping tool that runs around that price.
- antonvs 7mo ago
  Not sure what the other comment is referring to, but you’re right that PEX is much more flexible than PP. It’s commonly used in the US for residential plumbing, and is easier and quicker to install than PP, which is a big reason PP hasn’t replaced it (in the US).
  - ansgri 7mo ago
    Rechecked now, PEX became way more accessible it seems. Rehau-style toolkits used to cost several hundreds.
RobotToaster 7mo ago
I prefer copper and not having micro plastics in my water.

dsign 7mo ago

> The company would compensate them well: full wages for the whole time, even when sleeping, and a paid week off after. Only a week??? I mean, we are all going to be replaced with AI any day now, but were it not the case, I'm fully expecting to see an American company to offer, as a benefit, "we will collect and bring your remains to the workplace if you by accident die outside."

steve_adams_86 7mo ago
I understood that to mean they were paid on their week off. They would then return to the factory.

hilliardfarmer 7mo ago

Great article but it should have included some remarks about how unnecessary, fruitless and a waste of time and resources it all was. Are people on average still not able to accept the whole thing was idiotic from start to finish? The very idea masking ever helped a single person avoid getting covid is just stilly at this point, right? Otherwise we'd still be doing it or at least getting the vaccine, I don't know anyone that's gotten it the last 3 years. Article would have been better from the angle of, "look at all the stupid stuff people were doing, ha" not, "these people were HEROES!" At best they were misled, at worst, profiteer idiots.

wpm 7mo ago
Once you get the vaccine you generally only need a few boosters and you're done. I haven't gotten a diphtheria vax since I was a child. What a waste of time! If masks don't do anything why do surgeons wear them?
- blacksmith_tb 7mo ago
  That's the nuance missing from the parent's snark, masks are most effective at preventing the wearer from transmitting infections to the people around them (especially important in an operating theater). Masks may also help prevent the wearer from inhaling airborne pathogens, though they're less effective there.
  - bsder 7mo ago
    Also missing from the discussion is that it is easy to prove that an N95 mask works because the effect is so dramatic. The fact that the efficacy of a surgical mask is more difficult to prove does not mean that it doesn't work. And, as you point out, the major benefit is to the people around you so that you don't unintentionally spread the disease before you realize you have it.
pingou 7mo ago
I think the main point was to flatten the curve, as hospitals were overloaded. Masks (at least the better ones) did reduce the likelihood of getting covid, and people didn't have the antibodies they have now.

londons_explore 7mo ago

One should consider how futures prices impact this economics model. This factory could afford to upscale because they could sell their product for a much higher price, and pay their workers much more to do so. However if they had already sold the factories output for the regular price via a futures contract (ie. 1 ton of polypropylene for delivery in June for $2000), then the story would be different. Futures contracts are widely used as a way to take the risk out of doing things, but the side effect is your economy loses all incentive to be flexible to changing needs.

kjshsh123 7mo ago
If demand increases for PPE (e.g. a righward shift of the demand curve) because of a pandemic, then prices increase but quantity demanded increases as well. They may have existing futures contracts at the prior price and quantity but if quantity demanded has increased, then that means there are new orders as well that would be at the new, higher, market price. The article is about them increasing their output. They could have sold the factories previous expected output via a futures contract. That doesn't stop them increasing output and selling in excess of any futures contracts.

stefantalpalaru 7mo ago

[dead]