21 ms·

Why you should take your 20's seriously

235 points by jevanish 14y ago

scheff 14y ago
Re: "Your brain finishes forming in your 20′s" See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroplasticity http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroplasticity Specifically: "During most of the 20th century, the general consensus among neuroscientists was that brain structure is relatively immutable after a critical period during early childhood. This belief has been challenged by findings revealing that many aspects of the brain remain plastic even into adulthood."
danielrm26 14y ago
Good content. Thanks for sharing it rather than cowering before the self-publishing police.
Hawkee 14y ago
This is especially true concerning the mind. The older we get the less open we are to new ideas. Once somebody is fully set in their ways it's almost impossible to change their mind without divine intervention. I just take this as a warning as somebody who is older to be open to change and be willing to embrace new ideas.
- bitops 14y ago
  > The older we get the less open we are to new ideas. I agree with this point of view insofar as that's the behavior we usually observe in most people. I think it's also true that it is possible to stay open-minded your whole life and never get stuck in one way of doing things. It's not easy though, and of course we all develop habits over the course of our lives which can be very hard to shake off.
  - genwin 14y ago
    > I think it's also true that it is possible to stay open-minded your whole life and never get stuck in one way of doing things. What you do is be open-minded in your 20s. Then you get "set in the way" of being open-minded, never to change that.
    - bennyg 14y ago
      Sounds pretty closed-minded, getting "set in the way" like that. ;)
  - Hawkee 14y ago
    It really depends on how deep these things are. When it comes to certain matters such as faith, family values or even programming habits they're much harder to change. Sure, anybody can try sushi for the first time when they're 50.
    - bitops 14y ago
      That's absolutely true - some things are easier to change than others. I like your sushi example; it's easy for most people to "try something new" when the experience feels disposable and non-threatening to someone's current worldview. It is much much harder to ask someone to be open to a new way of seeing life, especially in the areas you mentioned. Pick your favorite controversial political topic - a prime example of how difficult it is to get people to open up.
ececconi 14y ago
I've had a saying recently. I'm making a lot of sacrifices in my 20's so that I'm established and ready to start a family in my 30's.
- genwin 14y ago
  Hopefully not too many sacrifices though. Life should be about much more than creating new life. The 20s is the time to focus on yourself.
  - nsxwolf 14y ago
    Unless you are female. There really is such thing as a biological clock. edit: Before I get downvoted, insert "... and want children"
    - marquis 14y ago
      Having children when you're young is a good idea primarily because kids are exhausting, and take up a LOT of time. Have them as young as you're able and wanting to do so: nothing to do with your gender. Men have fertility issues as they age also.
      - guylhem 14y ago
        If you can make a resource by yourself, outsource- in this case, adopt. It will make some of the exhaustion go away, since it seems to be due to diverging circadian rythms between a newborn and an adult. A say 4 years old kid would logically be less exhausting to raise. Also, if the kid is adopted, it also removes fertility issues concerns. Strike 2 birds with 1 stone!
        marquis 14y ago
        I wish I could agree but a) 4 years old are just as exhausting (the first year is actually the easiest in terms of time you have available) and b) adoption is increasingly more difficult. I have friends who just adopted a baby after 5 years of tests and checks and more checks. Foster care is another option, it's easier to 'sign up' and you can get school-age kids, who need just as much help as an adopted kid.
pennig 14y ago
Well, shit.
- nsxwolf 14y ago
  Exactly. I read that and said "Well, too late for me, I guess." Good thing I'm happy with how my life turned out, regardless.
- fatbird 14y ago
  I know how you feel, but my response to this guy was to want to take him, put my arm around his shoulder, congratulate him on finding a way to motivate himself as he is right now, and warn him that he's got five, maybe six decades ahead of him, every one filled with possibilities that aren't going to depend on what he does right NOW NOW NOW. There's time. Everyone always has the wherewithal to change things, to start things, to build things, and to make things better, no matter how the past went.
- klipt 14y ago
  http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2722 http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2722
barrkel 14y ago
Contra: you only live once. The risk with spending so much of your youth building for a future - in essence, living for the tomorrow you're trying to create - is that you won't want it when you get there. When you're young, you're at the point at which you most likely have fewer worries of any kind than you will in the rest of your life. And you won't appreciate this until it's gone. A slightly more advanced career is a poor substitute. I'm not arguing in favour of feckless youth. In fact, you should be serious about one thing - not wasting your time. But building a career that you abandon in your 30s or 40s may also be a waste of time.
- codegeek 14y ago
  This. As they say "We had a plan for everything and then life happened"
- randomdata 14y ago
  The risk with spending so much of your youth building for a future - in essence, living for the tomorrow you're trying to create - is that you won't want it when you get there. Well said. Now that I'm 30, I'm pretty much living the dream I had for myself when I was 20, but it hasn't turned out to be exactly what I thought it would be. I'm not sure there is any way you can win though. If I had lived my life differently in my 20s and not had fulfilled the goals I set for myself, I'd be still dreaming the same dreams wishing I could achieve them. The grass is always greener and all that.
- dclusin 14y ago
  Agreed. One thing I've noticed about my own life is how hard even 1 year out of your career track hurts you both professionally (skill set) and personally (income/wealth). I was doing financial services programming for a big bank as my first job right out of college before the housing bust. I ended up getting laid off and enjoying the "funemployment" people talk about: 6 month full severance, unemployment at the top rate after that, living at home with the parents, no debt, and doing whatever strikes my fancy. I set an upper bound of 1 year maximum to be out of the field of programming. When I came back (should have kept programming while unemployed, stupid, I know) not only had my skill set deteriorated but so did my market rate. Out of college my salary was $98,000. By the time I had gotten back into the work force my salary was $65,000. It took about 1.5 years of hard work and a lot of overtime to get back to where I was. And during this time my peers that stayed employed have grown a lot both in terms skill set and market rate. So basically because I took 1 year off, I lost ~2.5-3 years of my career because I had to work back to where I was before. I think if I were to get a do-over I would have not have taken a year off. But the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence, as they say.
pitt1980 14y ago
I think this is sort of bullshit first shouldn't you take every discrete chunk of your life seriously? to the degree to which this is true, its true because we tell ourselves its true, most people don't reinvent themselves past their 20s because they choose not to, not because the obsticles standing in their way are insurmountable
simonsarris 14y ago
I've spent a considerable amount of time thinking about this, ever since the topic came up on reddit about why so few people in their 20's seem to "have their shit together." I think it comes down to two reasons. The first one is huge, but its essentially luck. I think the reason I'm even afforded the opportunity to take my 20's seriously is almost completely happenstantial. Looking at my friends and (distant) family I sometimes feel guilty because nothing bad has ever really happened to me in my life, whereas they've had to put up with all kinds of weird shit. For many people I know not being able to take their 20's seriously as powerhouse career years is sort-of excusable. They were spending them trying to survive, or raise a family all-too-soon. But me? I'm young (24), well educated, I live in a huge Victorian-era house near main street nearly for free, programming job, walk to work every day, have a book deal (boring HTML5 book), brag, brag, etc, etc But somehow I feel I'm just infinitely lucky. Lucky that my parents are two normal, well adjusted people. Lucky that I could be awkward and nerdy as all shit through middle school and high school and nobody was ever unpleasant to me. I was never bullied. No weird drama ever entered my life. I exited college with $0 but debt-free, thanks to Bank of Dad, who carefully engineered my experience to be basically broke but never in-the-hole so long as I worked (got an internship every summer and winter). Lucky lucky lucky. Thanks everyone in my life so far. Really. --------------------- On the flip side I think that such a lifestyle (very career focused 20's) is seen as unattractive to a lot of 20-somethings. At the least, I think most people in my age range would describe people like me as boring (though I am never really bored). I spend most of my days reading, writing, sitting in cafes, programming, or doing art things. Right now and for several more months, its nearly 100% career activities. If I had to put together a dating website profile, it probably wouldn't look particularly attractive to other 20-somethings. Put another way, most of my hobbies are either career related or solitary acts. Not that people can't appreciate them, just that none of them are exciting, and most of my 20-something friends (none of which IRL are programmers, I lead a lonely career here in NH) that proclaim me to be one of the few who has their shit together would also not want to be me. None of them want to work desk jobs and then go home and work some more. They want to work in food/bar services or have a whatever-job, drop it at 5pm and go do fun 20-something things. Career development it seems isn't fun to most 20-somethings, socializing at bars is, moving out to Montana to climb things and work for a harvest season is, saving up to hide away in Peru for a year is, writing music with friends while working retail is, but not career development. Not to disparage these things, it just a sampling of their goals.
tlogan 14y ago
Interesting post. There is also other school of thought: - in 20s you party - in 30s you raise family - in 40s you build business And, don't worry: if you are very creative in 20s you will be the same creative person with new ideas in 40s.
cletus 14y ago
This is a delicate subject because one can view it as a call for those in their 20s to make the most of that time, which is a fine message, to something tantamount to ageism. While it's true that those in their 30s or older can be closed to new idea, that's not because they're "old", it's because they're people and some people are closed-minded. I find a lot of these complaints are more about the cultural and lifestyle gap between those in their 20s and those who are older. I remember the 80s. I'm not particularly interested in going bar-hopping. I find most social media to be an annoying drivel from people who vary between exhibitionists to just liking the sound of their own voices (everybody is talking, nobody is listening). I don't have that same sense of enthusiasm because for me everything isn't new. Most things really are derivative. To paraphrase something Don Draper said, I've reached a point on my life where I think I've basically met every kind of person there is. That's not to say that people can't surprise you. They can. It's just that you realize they're not as different as they once seemed. This is exacerbated in the startup world since so many are cut from the same cloth: valedictorians in high school, magna cum laude, graduates of Stanford/MIT/CMU/Columbia, interned at Facebook/Amazon/Microsoft/Google, now working for one of those or some hot startup. It's a whittled down group of the technocratic elite who often-times don't really know how privileged and lucky they are. At Google there tends to be two kinds of people: those who have worked in the outside world, particularly in Corporate America, and know how lucky they are and how different this is. And those that haven't and think this is just how the world is. I don't begrudge them their successes and accomplishments but it is a form of cultural isolation--even inbreeding. All of this means there tends to be a smaller set of common social norms with the "20s set". At the same time, I pick up new technologies, languages and frameworks as much as I ever did. Possibly more so. Just now I've been doing a lot of AngularJS. That certainly didn't exist in my 20s. While I may not have the same youthful exuberance, I have experience and can draw lessons and parallels from programming in every stage of the Web's development (from CGI scripts on). I will say this to those planning to have children: do it while you're young and it has nothing do with fertility. Children simply take an enormous amount of energy and commitment and this is far easier to bounce back from the younger you are. As for the rest of it? Take another comment on this thread: > Once somebody is fully set in their ways it's almost impossible to change their mind without divine intervention That's fairly blatant ageism but, more than that, it's from someone who only knows people like him- or herself that wants to surround themselves with the same. Like I said: commonality and shared social norms are really what's in play there.
OldSchool 14y ago
IMO 20-something is THE time to go for it. You'll only get more encumbered by personal expense overhead and non-monetary time commitments as you get older. Yes, our bodies haven't kept pace with society and technology. If you ever want to have kids, ladies need to be finished having children by 35. Start before 30 but if you know you have potential fertility issues start as early as possible after getting an education. You'll only miss out on happy hour where people get fat and dissolve their their faces with alcohol anyway. One downside is you may not feel as credible as someone older when trying to make a sale in-person. However, some older people will give you the sale because they like you because you're a younger version of them. Another downside is establishing appropriate relationships with employees that are about your same age. Attila doesn't drink with the huns. You can't tell if they actually like you because you're paying them so you're probably not as funny as they make you feel. If you get rich they're going to hate you anyway; even if they get some of the loot too it won't be enough. That doesn't go for real partners - you need a small senior team of complementary people that live and die with the company - that's hard to find but critical. Luck favors the prepared. You can be almost completely invisible to the world and still make enough money that it changes the course of the rest of your life. Time will pass regardless and you're probably going to be working anyway so why not place your big bets when they only affect you?
moron 14y ago
When I was 29, I knew someone who was really freaking out about being close to turning 30. To be honest, I wasn't thrilled about it either, but I was a lot more accepting of it. I thought about why, and my theory is that it's probably a lot scarier if you haven't really accomplished anything yet, however you define accomplishment. Having your youth go away when it's a part of how you identify yourself by is a scary thing. If it's not, it stings less.
nostromo 14y ago
Most startup advice is also good advice for 20-somethings. Get to an MVP quickly: Find a way to practice your target profession as soon as possible. (Don't spend hundreds of thousands getting a law degree just to discover you hate the actual work.) This is easy for programmers: just start building stuff before applying to the CS program. After MVP, iterate quickly: So you know Ruby? Time to learn another language, or about compilers, or about web typography, or about finance. Don't stand still. Be ready to pivot: If you discover you find your work unfulfilling, the time to change is now. Don't wait to switch careers until your 40s. Don't prematurely optimize: Your 20s should be about gaining skills and experience, not about getting big paychecks. The best paying job a 20 year old can get might be in construction or the military, but this may limit your upside down the road.
- randomdata 14y ago
  The best paying job a 20 year old can get might be in construction or the military, but this may limit your upside down the road. From a purely financial perspective, money now is better than money later though. A 20 year old who secures a job that nets him enough to save $15,000 per year until retirement will ultimately have a lifetime net savings of about the same as someone who finally finds a job that pays enough to save $50,000 per year at the age of 40.
  - hudibras 14y ago
    And as for the military, cashing out at twenty years of service with a $47,000 annual pension (starting immediately and inflation-adjusted over time) plus the G.I. Bill is not a bad deal at all. The downside is that you have to be in the military for 20 years.
levesque 14y ago
I wholeheartedly disagree and I might add that this is bullshit. Do whatever the hell you want to do with your twenties. If your idea of a perfect life is a flawless career, then go for it. Go where your interests take you. As long as you get bread on the table and don't bury yourself in debt, there is no reason why you should feel you are wasting some grandiose opportunity. Life isn't only about work and money.
jakejake 14y ago
The irony of life is that you don't truly understand what is important in your 20's (or any age) until you are much older. Not only do we fail to understand things until we get some outside perspective - but also our priorities change. In my 40's I wish I had done certain career things differently. But I can imagine myself in my 80's wishing I had goofed off more, traveled the world and not taken anything too seriously. As the old joke goes, not too many people are on their death bed wishing they had worked harder.
fitandfunction 14y ago
An easier way to think about this is that life, like money, compounds. Good decisions you make early in life compound and pay dividends for the rest of your life.
scottmcleod 14y ago
You should take all of your life serious, but not so serious you do not enjoy it.
- sh_vipin 14y ago
  I agree with you. Probably the meaning of "serious" has to be understood better. "Serious" doesn't mean lack of fun. If that would be the case, there would be no lounges, beer bars, cafes in bay area for entrepreneurs. And on the other hand, no point in getting HIV in 80s either :)
scottmcleod 14y ago
You should take all of your life serious, but not so serious you do not enjoy it.
deleted 14y ago
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crazygringo 14y ago
I "agree", but draw the exact opposite conclusions. You should take your 20's seriously... because it's the only time in your life that you aren't encumbered by building a career, having kids, etc. So you should take your 20's to do the things that you won't be able to do later. Work as a bartender, play in a band, travel the world on the cheap, teach English abroad, date the kind of people you wouldn't marry. You don't have serious responsibilities, so take advantage of that while you can. Don't waste your 20's "building a career". You've got your 30's and 40's and 50's to do that. Don't be in a rush to have kids too soon. Obviously, don't throw your 20's away. But spend them doing life-experience-focused things, not career- or family-focused. And this gets at the author's third point: "Your brain finishes forming in your 20′s". If that's even true (although I doubt it), then you'd better get in all those varied life experiences sooner rather than later. Learn a second language, learn to cook, learn to play music. Don't waste your 20's on grinding away at traditionally career-oriented stuff. That part of your brain is probably already fine. Your 20's is the time to look for diversity in your life, not to focus narrowly on any particular part. You've got all the decades afterward to work on narrow refinement and career progression...
- gnaritas 14y ago
  > "Your brain finishes forming in your 20′s". If that's even true (although I doubt it) It is true.
  - peterwwillis 14y ago
    Good argument, pal.
    - 001sky 14y ago
      Its not an argument, its true physiologically, or so its been reported. Certain types of reasoning peak (in terms of horse-power or raw CPU type performance) in your 20's, similar to raw athleticism. But there are a whole host of factors, around plasticity, memory management, and actual memory (ie, empirical data) that allow more real-world performance at a later age/stage. To continue the computer analogy, the fastest chip doesnt always win, if you have GPU, L1/L2 cach, improved bus-speed, SSD storage, and better written software....etc. Similary, in certain sports world-class athletes improve well beyond their peak physiology. Himilayan mountain climbing is the classic example of peak perfomance <not> being in your 20's.
grecy 14y ago
Ugh. I've been having this conversation a lot lately. > Your 20′s lay the groundwork for success in the rest of your career. Can also be said as: While in your 20's, you should start living like you're in your 30's, 40's and 50's, so you can do that and only that for your entire life. I completely reject that way of thinking. There are many things we all want to do in our 20's we will not want to do later in life, which is all the more reason to do them in your 20's, lest you never get to do them at all. As anecdotal evidence, I spent 2 years of my life from 27-29 driving from Alaska to Argentina, because I wanted to. Will I want to sleep in a tent for >500 nights when I'm 50? doubtful. Am I extremely happy that I did? You bet, best experience of my life. Did it "harm" my career? No, I'm working right now as a Software Engineer.
- jonstjohn 14y ago
  Absolutely agree with you. I went on a wild adventure through my 20s, spending time in Alaska, working as a baker, managing an organic farm for several years - living for the most part from the seat of my pants just following what felt right. I'm sure I sacrificed some aspects of a 'career' because of it but I had an incredible life experience. And when I turned 30 I met the love of my life, finally committed full time to developing software (after a number of fits and starts) and never looked back. I never spend a day feeling like I 'missed out on something'. Rather, I'm really enjoying my life where it is at right now, cool career, wonderful wife and 2 1/2 year old son. I do kind of look forward to when my son gets a little older though so I can get a van and take him on some wild adventures ;)
agentultra 14y ago
Good luck trying to tell other people how they should live their lives. I can tell you that there are probably a hundred things I could've done better with my time in my twenties. However there was no way that I would have known then what I would be like today and what makes me happy now. Back then I thought I would keep gigging in bands and I'd scrape together a record label and have a long career in music. That's what made me happy at the time and what I sought out to do. How could I have known that I would change? I have a wife now and a daughter on the way, I've become a mild-mannered programmer who enjoys mathematics and literature, and rather than getting pissed on a Friday night and making a lot of noise I like to hang out with my friends and play board games. But if I was wiser I might have went to university and worked on getting a PhD then I'd probably be better off now, today. Hindsight... What I'm saying is that humans are terrible planners. We're good at adapting and adjusting but we can never seem to be able to accurately predict outcomes. I think that we glorify those people who seem to far surpass the status quo and bend their stories into myth. It's romantic to think that Einstein or Steve Jobs had set out to change the world when they were young but if we're honest about their history it's more likely that they drifted towards those things and all the right pieces were in place at the right time to make great things happen. And it doesn't end when you hit thirty. I'm still as ambitious as ever and I see new currents that I'd like to follow that I would never have thought possible before. You don't just become a dumb, boring, cantankerous old person over night. Quite the contrary; I find that my tastes are far more refined, I can see dead-ends before going down the path, and I am more adverse to wasting my time. You start to see patterns in the ocean and can navigate the seas with ease. So plan all you want but be prepared to fight the current and the winds!
- kpennell5 14y ago
  Beautifully written, thanks for the insights.
engtech 14y ago
"2) Statistically, women need to have all their children by 35. According to the author, a woman’s ability to get pregnant plummets starting in her mid-thirties. To make matters worse, the odds of a miscarriage for a woman over 35 is one in four." Our family doctor gave the odds as 3 in 5. In practical experience, I know of four friends who have miscarried at 35 (after being pregnant for over 3 months), out of about 11 who had kids at that age. My wife and I have always suspected that the 3 out of 5 statistic also includes miscarriages in the first two months of pregnancy where you might not have been sure you were pregnant or late.
- flyosity 14y ago
  Just to chime in here, I personally know two 34+ year old moms who had children in the past 2 years with Down Syndrome, after having numerous miscarriages. It seems a lot of young geeky guys commenting here forget that it's not just men who have a child so if you want to have a kid in your 30s and 40s after building a career, it's going to be difficult to find a partner at that same age who has the same goals.
  - viviantan 14y ago
    It's not just the age of the female partner that affects the child's health. As men age, the risk of passing genetic mutations (including those that cause diseases) onto their offspring increases. This article talks the study: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthiness/9492343/Men-advised-to-start-early-if-they-want-healthy-babies.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthiness/9492343/Men-ad... So if you're an older guy, having kids with a younger woman doesn't make this problem go away.
- hudibras 14y ago
  The one-in-four statistic is for miscarriages after the sixth week of pregnancy. In the general population, the percentage of miscarriages is 15%, or about one-in-six. One thing to keep in mind is that a miscarriage is not the end of the world. Heartbreaking, yes, but it's not too late to try again.
  - 14y ago
wheels 14y ago
This is rather straw-man-ish. He equates having a fun, care-free life as ... working at Starbucks. I don't know anyone who's ever said, "Well, why don't you just work at Starbucks for a decade? It'll be fun and you can get a real job when you're 30!" What's actually said is more like, "Take a few months and a backpack and go travel somewhere" or "start a company with no idea if it'll pan out". Party. Start a band. Chase some girls [or guys]. Read a lot. It doesn't mean "throw away a decade" -- it means "do the important things that it'll be harder for you to get away with if 10 years from now you have a family and mortgage." I visited over 30 countries in my 20s. Even if that would have kept me from advancing my career (it didn't), I wouldn't trade that for being a year closer to a promotion in an IT job.
- zpk 14y ago
  "What's actually said is more like, "Take a few months and a backpack and go travel somewhere" or "start a company with no idea if it'll pan out". Party. Start a band. Chase some girls [or guys]. Read a lot." I am in my 30's and I hope to continue/start doing some of this.
peterwwillis 14y ago
There's only one thing about your age that definitively affects your life: Your body. Past concerns of the flesh, stop trying to box your experiences into meaningless numbers and just do things you want to do as you feel like it, at any age.
mrharrison 14y ago
Why you should take every moment seriously. Live life now!
staringispolite 14y ago
I don't know how I feel about a blog that drives you to click an Amazon affiliate link. Nevertheless, the points seem valid and thought-provoking. Thanks for sharing.
flyosity 14y ago
I don't like the idea that "having fun" and "building a career" are mutually exclusive entities that don't touch on a Venn diagram. I built a career in my 20s based on things that excited me as a teenager, and I'm still excited by my career and consider my job a lot of fun. I didn't live in exotic countries or lounge around aimlessly because I'd rather be designing and building software: that's my fun. I suspect a lot of people on HN feel the same way, and just because one person's idea of "fun" is to travel around the world doesn't mean that they have a monopoly on what fun means.
willholloway 14y ago
I have a different take: College Years, 18-23: This is the time to just be. You can treat college as a stressful strive-fest for meaningless grades, or you can treat it like a 4-5 year vacation. Optimize for gentleman's C's. You still get all the social and class benefits. 23-30: These are your prime productive years. This is the time to amass your fortune. 30 to death: Travel, play golf, foster community and friendships. Get married, have kids. All of these things will be much more enjoyable with some cash.
- steve-howard 14y ago
  It really just depends, doesn't it? We all regret some things, and we probably fail to appreciate some things we've done right.
- tudorizer 14y ago
  That's my plan :)
deleted 14y ago
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guylhem 14y ago
I disagree with a lot of the comments - and with the article point. We should not think about taking any age seriously or not, but of the bigger picture instead, ie one's goals in life. Unfortunately, they are not written down for you, and they can be quite hard to find. There are various algorithm that may work, but all I see in the article and the comments are basically 2 opposite proposals : - plan A: explore in your twenties to make sure you properly identify your goals - plan B : commit to your career in your twenties to take advantage of compounding interest (in life as in money) But we all know alternatives approaches - like iterating between exploration (finding a local maxima) and exploitation (taking advantage of this local maxima) I guess it all depends if you have already found your fancy, and all longs it will take to get you bored out of it, but it seems to be a much better approach - especially if you do not ignore the money aspect of your fancies (ie starting a band might be fun, but odds of financial return are low) Also, it seems to me a lot of the comments insist about family and children. These are individual decisions - not givens, something the author clearly stated ("if having a family is part of your life's goals"). Fortunately for men, there is no age limit (and if we keep our rate of technological progress in stem cells and differentiation into germinal lines, there is no reason why it couldn't be also possible for women) Currently, at least for 50% of the readers, age should not be factored in - opening the door for more iteration of the explore/exploit loop, with the always present opportunity to have kids. I guess I don't understand or I'm missing something, maybe like the preference of dating someone of a similar age (which might then impose its own preference on optimal child bearing age)
- LVB 14y ago
  Fortunately for men, there is no age limit Maybe. Some newer evidence shows older fathers are more likely to pass on genetic mutations. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444812704577605282821235136.html http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000087239639044481270457760...
milroc 14y ago
Concepts like this seem very specific to obtain a certain desired lifestyle rather than advice on how to live. 1) Don't put off your career: While I agree it mainly correlates to two things. a. Spend as much time as you can doing what you have a drive to do. (e.g: setting yourself to be financially above or where you were when you grew up, trying to start a band, or trying to create the next major startup). c. Make sure to live below your means. (i.e: Ensure if you make 100 dollars after tax regardless of pay 25 of it is being saved. This gets harder and harder as there is a asymptote decided by the market (cost of living) and situation (whether or not your parents basement is available) you live in). 2) Children: There is a lot of qualifications here that were taken in place in the article. While the clock is ticking and I agree, people look at children as a chore taken to ensure a certain lifestyle later in life; or just want them and are willing to sacrifice whatever else to enjoy having children. Both are generally the case but I feel the set of things that people choose to give up is too large. You should ensure that your finances should be in place to support them but the amount in which you should support them should vary based off of your financial situation (by this I do not limit it to the children's wants (less toys) but rather also the child's needs (why pay for a private school if you can't afford it? because it's worth the difference in learning experiences? What about no private school and finding other means of educating the child?)) 3) Brain Finishes Forming: Fight it if you think that this is going to be the case (and care; I know a very large set of people who enjoy being close minded. It means that their life is less complicated by relatively asinine decision making, when they would prefer the action portion of the work (I can't understand this but have debated it with individuals)).
- milroc 14y ago
  Advice on how to live is simple: 1) Learn (travel, fail at something, shadow someone) 2) Prune (decide what is worth learning (e.g does learning another programming language add much value compared to learning about the behaviors of a market or larger ones like learning about a girl)) I'm definitely going to look into this book because it seems like it helps people work on pruning which I believe is the hardest part of life. However I feel that you (Jason) may have taken away some wrong things from the book because: "This is how most successful people I know have built their careers, and it always starts small." While this may be one of the largest pipes that create your definition of success, it is not the only one. People may need the life experience of working as a barista before starting their career for several reasons; or they may want to work at a hostel while traveling for several years to learn more about the world. The rate in which careers develop vary greatly from person to person and at what point; why base it on the average successful individual?
davepeck 14y ago
There's no one path. It's good that our poets still keep things in perspective: http://www.panhala.net/Archive/The_Ball.html http://www.panhala.net/Archive/The_Ball.html
icesoldier 14y ago
The issue I have with seeing life advice posts is that I've begun to see this dichotomy between "follow your heart" advice and "follow your head" advice. And I personally have a split between the two: my degree is in CS and my current job is in programming, but by "pie in the sky" dreams involve writing and performing music. I happen to have more knowledge in the former as a consequence of my degree, but I didn't really passionately pursue any major side projects. (This hindered my job hunt slightly, but I still managed to circumvent it via personal connections. It does pay to know people, in my experience.) As I was closing in on the end of my college degree plan, I felt torn between these two seemingly divergent ends. As a result I crept into a disillusioned depression fueled by the realization that it was too late to switch degrees that wildly and by firsthand experience of the job hunt as a CS student from west Texas with little heart in the industry. So I'm just taking solace in the fact that I'm working a job with a really short commute and a good environment where I can go home at 5:00 and pursue music as a hobby. I might even notice eventually that my life's passion doesn't land in either music or programming, and to be honest I'd be okay with that if it gave me a direction to point in. But at this point, having only graduated from college this year (turning 23 next week), it feels like I just need to to something. Unfortunately, I feel like I'm coasting now that I've "made it" out into the world relatively unscathed.
- jevanish 14y ago
  Have you thought about trying to find the intersection of the two? Is there a company or something you can work on that takes advantage of both skillsets? I think the real challenge in life is to get heart and head in alignment. It's not easy, but who said it would be?
  - icesoldier 14y ago
    I had put some thought in that direction, and thought about finding companies that made DAWs. However, this space turned up dead ends, at least when I was looking. The other thought I had was indie game dev, which I thought needed a bit more time investment than I had before it would pay off. (I was thinking in terms of when I was finishing college, after which I would have to escape the shadow of my parents, who can only be so nurturing.) And I like your point there about the challenge of life.
freyr 14y ago
There are some good points here, but my advice is that you should take your teens seriously. It seems like the prevailing advice today for anyone in their teens is to live their lives free of any commitments and as independent and undirected as possible. But lately I realized the importance of my teens to a degree I never had and it has changed how I plan to approach the last few years of my teens. I'm not going to wait until my twenties to move into my parent's house and work on my startup. I already live in their house, so why wait? Also, since everybody peaks in their twenties, why waste our best years making mistakes? By starting early, I'm getting lots of mistakes out of the way. By the time I hit my twenties, I'll be at peak performance and have tons of experience under my belt. But sometimes I wish I'd started as a tween.
- unimpressive 14y ago
  > But sometimes I wish I'd started as a tween. As someone who is a teen, and "taking their teens seriously."; I sometimes get this feeling. And then I laugh like crazy and go back to what I was doing.
- neverm0re 14y ago
  > Also, since everybody peaks in their twenties Oh how you're going to laugh at that one later on.
  - freyr 14y ago
    My comment was meant as parody (I'm not actually in my teens), but I guess it missed the mark. I agree with the general sentiment of the article, but it would carry a lot more weight coming from someone who has actually lived a little.
nckbz 14y ago
What's the point? I'm 24 years old. Education was expensive, so I worked my way up as a programmer and web developer right out of high school. I've worked at some pretty big corporations and now I'm looking to buy a house while my friends are just getting out of University with junior developer positions while living at home. My co-workers are all around 10-20 years older than I am. I've made senior developer, but I won't be able to move into any type of management positions for another 5-10 years just because of my age. There's no additional advancement or benefits to a slightly early head start on a career. People who give advice like this probably don't remember what it was like to be this age. My advice? If you have the chance to see the world, have a cool college experience, or the opportunity to do something unique with your life follow through with it. Climbing the corporate ladder in any field at any age is difficult at best, but doing so at twenty? Probably one of the main drives behind talented 'kids' joining startups now days.
andreipop 14y ago
I find your desire to "build a large company" interesting - I shared this until I realized that almost nobody gets out of bed in the morning because they say "I want to build and run a large company" - this is fundamentally unsustainable. Instead finding problems you care about or find interesting might be more motivating and put less pressure on your psychological well being. This helps you get rid of the time pressure you seem to be feeling and will bring a new sense of focus and purpose.
grantph 14y ago
Here's some insight which I had with a senior partner at a "big 4 consulting" firm and their attitude to age. The buy up highly educated people in their 20's because they're cheap and eager to work. In fact, they're cheaper than most people when you do an hourly analysis (probably cheaper than cleaners). BUT... the simple fact is, they also know they burn out by their 30's. Life takes over. The doubt. What am I doing with my life? Why don't I have a family? Maybe I missed out on other things my friends were doing? By that stage, they no longer care about you because they've got a new batch of cheap 20's burning the midnight oil. However, the good news is that they noticed that there's a reversal when people reach their 40's. They've got experience in life and business. They're no longer in doubt mode. Ironically, these organizations have standard pitches to sell the career delusion. "People are our greatest assets" and similar rhetoric. The reality is ... THE DO NOT GIVE A CRAP ABOUT YOUR CAREER. Careers do NOT exist. It's like selling women the idea of being a "homemaker" in the 1950's. I have noticed that people are more likely to be successful in their 30's and 40's (read some evidence that suggested that too but can't remember the reference). People getting rich in their 20's is an aberration. Neuroplasticity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Brain_That_Changes_Itself http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Brain_That_Changes_Itself) also suggests that we never stop learning, so I have to disagree with point 3 "Your brain finishes forming in your 20′s." Dribble! That's like the rhetoric about careers. People just get lazy. What people have going for them in their 20's is no commitment and all the time in the world. But no experience which can also be a disadvantage. If you can recreate "no commitment" in your 30's-40's (20's + real experience), then you should excel because your ideas are more mature and hopefully clearer! You're more likely to be successful as an actor in your 30's for the same reasons!
sh_vipin 14y ago
Not sure if any other venture than Mc D was started in post-30s. I guess Mc D was started in 40s but otherwise most of the startups were founded by its owners in 20s itself.
xenen 14y ago
Having read a bunch of the comments and the OP, I think everyone has shared something that makes good sense. The problem is, though, that as much as these "lessons" make sense to us when reading them, it makes absolutely no sense to try and apply these lessons to ANOTHER PERSON. Each and every one of us have formed our own opinions about things, shaped by each and every one of our unique life experiences. To try and apply it to someone else is pointless, and futile. Instead, be happy. Do whatever it takes to find happiness. Apply whatever lessons are necessary to find the motivation behind YOUR happiness, and go after it. Strong, focused motivation is the most scarce resource for a human's life, and the path to finding that motivation is different for every one of us. We live for nothing else but the pursuit of happiness, and there's an infinite number of shapes it can be. Find yours.
sunjain 14y ago
On the contrary, I suggest 20s is the best time to explore who you actually are - so called "hippy" stuff. As later on it just becomes that much more difficult. Whether you end up building a great company or end up doing a regular job in your later years, it will not mean much if you did not find out who you actually are, what is your purpose in life (all those silly questions we all pondered sometimes but never actually pursued). Once explored thoroughly, and if the conclusion was that your purpose in life was to do a start-p(or startups) and establish a successful company, then it will be worth it. Otherwise, neither your startup will be successful, or if successful, your life will still be miserable. Better to figure all this out in 20s, instead of focusing primarily on your career.
deleted 14y ago
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taurath 14y ago
NO PRESSURE.
abdelmaalik 14y ago
how about: 'spend your thirties fixing all the mistakes you made in your twenties' there, now that sounds fun
weej 14y ago
>I need to develop as many of the skills I need to lead such a company now, because in a few years it may be difficult or almost impossible to grow in the ways necessary to handle the role. This neurological development is completely misinterpreted. I already posted on this exact topic not that long ago, but I'll reiterate. The poster is correct in noting neurological development does come with age in your 20s when one's frontal cortex (or lobes) of the brain fully develop. This has nothing to do with "developing new skills", but rather its your ability to control higher-order functioning. This could range from long term planning, motivation, and inhibition towards behavior. When you're young you're somewhat crazy and brash. This allows one to take chances, push the envelope, and reach breakthroughs. If anything this counters the poster's logic, and they should be creating a start-up in their teens instead. With that said it works both ways. The youth lack the ability fully reason, plan, and in SOME cases think logically through a problem (in the sense of understanding the repercussions of their actions).
chris123 14y ago
You should enjoy life, love, learn, teach, travel, and have fun from zero to death. The 20s are no different. I for one had an absolute blast in my 20s, did well financially, and didn't take myself "seriously." Different strokes for different folks. People should just plain think for themselves and NOT take themselves too seriously, IMHO :)
naturalethic 14y ago
Go fuck yourself. Seriously.
adrianwaj 14y ago
I'm on my feet, step aside man Get out my way, I got a mind of my own Beat all my fears as a young man Now that I'm grown, I don't fear the unknown -- Living Colour - Young Man - http://youtu.be/T7e2kVEFPrE http://youtu.be/T7e2kVEFPrE

235 points by jevanish 14y ago

Re: "Your brain finishes forming in your 20′s" See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroplasticity http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroplasticity Specifically: "During most of the 20th century, the general consensus among neuroscientists was that brain structure is relatively immutable after a critical period during early childhood. This belief has been challenged by findings revealing that many aspects of the brain remain plastic even into adulthood."

danielrm26 14y ago

Good content. Thanks for sharing it rather than cowering before the self-publishing police.

Hawkee 14y ago

This is especially true concerning the mind. The older we get the less open we are to new ideas. Once somebody is fully set in their ways it's almost impossible to change their mind without divine intervention. I just take this as a warning as somebody who is older to be open to change and be willing to embrace new ideas.

bitops 14y ago
> The older we get the less open we are to new ideas. I agree with this point of view insofar as that's the behavior we usually observe in most people. I think it's also true that it is possible to stay open-minded your whole life and never get stuck in one way of doing things. It's not easy though, and of course we all develop habits over the course of our lives which can be very hard to shake off.
- genwin 14y ago
  > I think it's also true that it is possible to stay open-minded your whole life and never get stuck in one way of doing things. What you do is be open-minded in your 20s. Then you get "set in the way" of being open-minded, never to change that.
  - bennyg 14y ago
    Sounds pretty closed-minded, getting "set in the way" like that. ;)
- Hawkee 14y ago
  It really depends on how deep these things are. When it comes to certain matters such as faith, family values or even programming habits they're much harder to change. Sure, anybody can try sushi for the first time when they're 50.
  - bitops 14y ago
    That's absolutely true - some things are easier to change than others. I like your sushi example; it's easy for most people to "try something new" when the experience feels disposable and non-threatening to someone's current worldview. It is much much harder to ask someone to be open to a new way of seeing life, especially in the areas you mentioned. Pick your favorite controversial political topic - a prime example of how difficult it is to get people to open up.

ececconi 14y ago

I've had a saying recently. I'm making a lot of sacrifices in my 20's so that I'm established and ready to start a family in my 30's.

genwin 14y ago
Hopefully not too many sacrifices though. Life should be about much more than creating new life. The 20s is the time to focus on yourself.
- nsxwolf 14y ago
  Unless you are female. There really is such thing as a biological clock. edit: Before I get downvoted, insert "... and want children"
  - marquis 14y ago
    Having children when you're young is a good idea primarily because kids are exhausting, and take up a LOT of time. Have them as young as you're able and wanting to do so: nothing to do with your gender. Men have fertility issues as they age also.
    - guylhem 14y ago
      If you can make a resource by yourself, outsource- in this case, adopt. It will make some of the exhaustion go away, since it seems to be due to diverging circadian rythms between a newborn and an adult. A say 4 years old kid would logically be less exhausting to raise. Also, if the kid is adopted, it also removes fertility issues concerns. Strike 2 birds with 1 stone!
      - marquis 14y ago
        I wish I could agree but a) 4 years old are just as exhausting (the first year is actually the easiest in terms of time you have available) and b) adoption is increasingly more difficult. I have friends who just adopted a baby after 5 years of tests and checks and more checks. Foster care is another option, it's easier to 'sign up' and you can get school-age kids, who need just as much help as an adopted kid.

pennig 14y ago

Well, shit.

nsxwolf 14y ago
Exactly. I read that and said "Well, too late for me, I guess." Good thing I'm happy with how my life turned out, regardless.
fatbird 14y ago
I know how you feel, but my response to this guy was to want to take him, put my arm around his shoulder, congratulate him on finding a way to motivate himself as he is right now, and warn him that he's got five, maybe six decades ahead of him, every one filled with possibilities that aren't going to depend on what he does right NOW NOW NOW. There's time. Everyone always has the wherewithal to change things, to start things, to build things, and to make things better, no matter how the past went.
klipt 14y ago
http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2722 http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2722

barrkel 14y ago

Contra: you only live once. The risk with spending so much of your youth building for a future - in essence, living for the tomorrow you're trying to create - is that you won't want it when you get there. When you're young, you're at the point at which you most likely have fewer worries of any kind than you will in the rest of your life. And you won't appreciate this until it's gone. A slightly more advanced career is a poor substitute. I'm not arguing in favour of feckless youth. In fact, you should be serious about one thing - not wasting your time. But building a career that you abandon in your 30s or 40s may also be a waste of time.

codegeek 14y ago
This. As they say "We had a plan for everything and then life happened"
randomdata 14y ago
The risk with spending so much of your youth building for a future - in essence, living for the tomorrow you're trying to create - is that you won't want it when you get there. Well said. Now that I'm 30, I'm pretty much living the dream I had for myself when I was 20, but it hasn't turned out to be exactly what I thought it would be. I'm not sure there is any way you can win though. If I had lived my life differently in my 20s and not had fulfilled the goals I set for myself, I'd be still dreaming the same dreams wishing I could achieve them. The grass is always greener and all that.
dclusin 14y ago
Agreed. One thing I've noticed about my own life is how hard even 1 year out of your career track hurts you both professionally (skill set) and personally (income/wealth). I was doing financial services programming for a big bank as my first job right out of college before the housing bust. I ended up getting laid off and enjoying the "funemployment" people talk about: 6 month full severance, unemployment at the top rate after that, living at home with the parents, no debt, and doing whatever strikes my fancy. I set an upper bound of 1 year maximum to be out of the field of programming. When I came back (should have kept programming while unemployed, stupid, I know) not only had my skill set deteriorated but so did my market rate. Out of college my salary was $98,000. By the time I had gotten back into the work force my salary was $65,000. It took about 1.5 years of hard work and a lot of overtime to get back to where I was. And during this time my peers that stayed employed have grown a lot both in terms skill set and market rate. So basically because I took 1 year off, I lost ~2.5-3 years of my career because I had to work back to where I was before. I think if I were to get a do-over I would have not have taken a year off. But the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence, as they say.

pitt1980 14y ago

I think this is sort of bullshit first shouldn't you take every discrete chunk of your life seriously? to the degree to which this is true, its true because we tell ourselves its true, most people don't reinvent themselves past their 20s because they choose not to, not because the obsticles standing in their way are insurmountable

simonsarris 14y ago

I've spent a considerable amount of time thinking about this, ever since the topic came up on reddit about why so few people in their 20's seem to "have their shit together." I think it comes down to two reasons. The first one is huge, but its essentially luck. I think the reason I'm even afforded the opportunity to take my 20's seriously is almost completely happenstantial. Looking at my friends and (distant) family I sometimes feel guilty because nothing bad has ever really happened to me in my life, whereas they've had to put up with all kinds of weird shit. For many people I know not being able to take their 20's seriously as powerhouse career years is sort-of excusable. They were spending them trying to survive, or raise a family all-too-soon. But me? I'm young (24), well educated, I live in a huge Victorian-era house near main street nearly for free, programming job, walk to work every day, have a book deal (boring HTML5 book), brag, brag, etc, etc But somehow I feel I'm just infinitely lucky. Lucky that my parents are two normal, well adjusted people. Lucky that I could be awkward and nerdy as all shit through middle school and high school and nobody was ever unpleasant to me. I was never bullied. No weird drama ever entered my life. I exited college with $0 but debt-free, thanks to Bank of Dad, who carefully engineered my experience to be basically broke but never in-the-hole so long as I worked (got an internship every summer and winter). Lucky lucky lucky. Thanks everyone in my life so far. Really. --------------------- On the flip side I think that such a lifestyle (very career focused 20's) is seen as unattractive to a lot of 20-somethings. At the least, I think most people in my age range would describe people like me as boring (though I am never really bored). I spend most of my days reading, writing, sitting in cafes, programming, or doing art things. Right now and for several more months, its nearly 100% career activities. If I had to put together a dating website profile, it probably wouldn't look particularly attractive to other 20-somethings. Put another way, most of my hobbies are either career related or solitary acts. Not that people can't appreciate them, just that none of them are exciting, and most of my 20-something friends (none of which IRL are programmers, I lead a lonely career here in NH) that proclaim me to be one of the few who has their shit together would also not want to be me. None of them want to work desk jobs and then go home and work some more. They want to work in food/bar services or have a whatever-job, drop it at 5pm and go do fun 20-something things. Career development it seems isn't fun to most 20-somethings, socializing at bars is, moving out to Montana to climb things and work for a harvest season is, saving up to hide away in Peru for a year is, writing music with friends while working retail is, but not career development. Not to disparage these things, it just a sampling of their goals.

tlogan 14y ago

Interesting post. There is also other school of thought: - in 20s you party - in 30s you raise family - in 40s you build business And, don't worry: if you are very creative in 20s you will be the same creative person with new ideas in 40s.

cletus 14y ago

This is a delicate subject because one can view it as a call for those in their 20s to make the most of that time, which is a fine message, to something tantamount to ageism. While it's true that those in their 30s or older can be closed to new idea, that's not because they're "old", it's because they're people and some people are closed-minded. I find a lot of these complaints are more about the cultural and lifestyle gap between those in their 20s and those who are older. I remember the 80s. I'm not particularly interested in going bar-hopping. I find most social media to be an annoying drivel from people who vary between exhibitionists to just liking the sound of their own voices (everybody is talking, nobody is listening). I don't have that same sense of enthusiasm because for me everything isn't new. Most things really are derivative. To paraphrase something Don Draper said, I've reached a point on my life where I think I've basically met every kind of person there is. That's not to say that people can't surprise you. They can. It's just that you realize they're not as different as they once seemed. This is exacerbated in the startup world since so many are cut from the same cloth: valedictorians in high school, magna cum laude, graduates of Stanford/MIT/CMU/Columbia, interned at Facebook/Amazon/Microsoft/Google, now working for one of those or some hot startup. It's a whittled down group of the technocratic elite who often-times don't really know how privileged and lucky they are. At Google there tends to be two kinds of people: those who have worked in the outside world, particularly in Corporate America, and know how lucky they are and how different this is. And those that haven't and think this is just how the world is. I don't begrudge them their successes and accomplishments but it is a form of cultural isolation--even inbreeding. All of this means there tends to be a smaller set of common social norms with the "20s set". At the same time, I pick up new technologies, languages and frameworks as much as I ever did. Possibly more so. Just now I've been doing a lot of AngularJS. That certainly didn't exist in my 20s. While I may not have the same youthful exuberance, I have experience and can draw lessons and parallels from programming in every stage of the Web's development (from CGI scripts on). I will say this to those planning to have children: do it while you're young and it has nothing do with fertility. Children simply take an enormous amount of energy and commitment and this is far easier to bounce back from the younger you are. As for the rest of it? Take another comment on this thread: > Once somebody is fully set in their ways it's almost impossible to change their mind without divine intervention That's fairly blatant ageism but, more than that, it's from someone who only knows people like him- or herself that wants to surround themselves with the same. Like I said: commonality and shared social norms are really what's in play there.

OldSchool 14y ago

IMO 20-something is THE time to go for it. You'll only get more encumbered by personal expense overhead and non-monetary time commitments as you get older. Yes, our bodies haven't kept pace with society and technology. If you ever want to have kids, ladies need to be finished having children by 35. Start before 30 but if you know you have potential fertility issues start as early as possible after getting an education. You'll only miss out on happy hour where people get fat and dissolve their their faces with alcohol anyway. One downside is you may not feel as credible as someone older when trying to make a sale in-person. However, some older people will give you the sale because they like you because you're a younger version of them. Another downside is establishing appropriate relationships with employees that are about your same age. Attila doesn't drink with the huns. You can't tell if they actually like you because you're paying them so you're probably not as funny as they make you feel. If you get rich they're going to hate you anyway; even if they get some of the loot too it won't be enough. That doesn't go for real partners - you need a small senior team of complementary people that live and die with the company - that's hard to find but critical. Luck favors the prepared. You can be almost completely invisible to the world and still make enough money that it changes the course of the rest of your life. Time will pass regardless and you're probably going to be working anyway so why not place your big bets when they only affect you?

moron 14y ago

When I was 29, I knew someone who was really freaking out about being close to turning 30. To be honest, I wasn't thrilled about it either, but I was a lot more accepting of it. I thought about why, and my theory is that it's probably a lot scarier if you haven't really accomplished anything yet, however you define accomplishment. Having your youth go away when it's a part of how you identify yourself by is a scary thing. If it's not, it stings less.

nostromo 14y ago

Most startup advice is also good advice for 20-somethings. Get to an MVP quickly: Find a way to practice your target profession as soon as possible. (Don't spend hundreds of thousands getting a law degree just to discover you hate the actual work.) This is easy for programmers: just start building stuff before applying to the CS program. After MVP, iterate quickly: So you know Ruby? Time to learn another language, or about compilers, or about web typography, or about finance. Don't stand still. Be ready to pivot: If you discover you find your work unfulfilling, the time to change is now. Don't wait to switch careers until your 40s. Don't prematurely optimize: Your 20s should be about gaining skills and experience, not about getting big paychecks. The best paying job a 20 year old can get might be in construction or the military, but this may limit your upside down the road.

randomdata 14y ago
The best paying job a 20 year old can get might be in construction or the military, but this may limit your upside down the road. From a purely financial perspective, money now is better than money later though. A 20 year old who secures a job that nets him enough to save $15,000 per year until retirement will ultimately have a lifetime net savings of about the same as someone who finally finds a job that pays enough to save $50,000 per year at the age of 40.
- hudibras 14y ago
  And as for the military, cashing out at twenty years of service with a $47,000 annual pension (starting immediately and inflation-adjusted over time) plus the G.I. Bill is not a bad deal at all. The downside is that you have to be in the military for 20 years.

levesque 14y ago

I wholeheartedly disagree and I might add that this is bullshit. Do whatever the hell you want to do with your twenties. If your idea of a perfect life is a flawless career, then go for it. Go where your interests take you. As long as you get bread on the table and don't bury yourself in debt, there is no reason why you should feel you are wasting some grandiose opportunity. Life isn't only about work and money.

jakejake 14y ago

The irony of life is that you don't truly understand what is important in your 20's (or any age) until you are much older. Not only do we fail to understand things until we get some outside perspective - but also our priorities change. In my 40's I wish I had done certain career things differently. But I can imagine myself in my 80's wishing I had goofed off more, traveled the world and not taken anything too seriously. As the old joke goes, not too many people are on their death bed wishing they had worked harder.

fitandfunction 14y ago

An easier way to think about this is that life, like money, compounds. Good decisions you make early in life compound and pay dividends for the rest of your life.

scottmcleod 14y ago

You should take all of your life serious, but not so serious you do not enjoy it.

sh_vipin 14y ago
I agree with you. Probably the meaning of "serious" has to be understood better. "Serious" doesn't mean lack of fun. If that would be the case, there would be no lounges, beer bars, cafes in bay area for entrepreneurs. And on the other hand, no point in getting HIV in 80s either :)

scottmcleod 14y ago

You should take all of your life serious, but not so serious you do not enjoy it.

deleted 14y ago

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crazygringo 14y ago

I "agree", but draw the exact opposite conclusions. You should take your 20's seriously... because it's the only time in your life that you aren't encumbered by building a career, having kids, etc. So you should take your 20's to do the things that you won't be able to do later. Work as a bartender, play in a band, travel the world on the cheap, teach English abroad, date the kind of people you wouldn't marry. You don't have serious responsibilities, so take advantage of that while you can. Don't waste your 20's "building a career". You've got your 30's and 40's and 50's to do that. Don't be in a rush to have kids too soon. Obviously, don't throw your 20's away. But spend them doing life-experience-focused things, not career- or family-focused. And this gets at the author's third point: "Your brain finishes forming in your 20′s". If that's even true (although I doubt it), then you'd better get in all those varied life experiences sooner rather than later. Learn a second language, learn to cook, learn to play music. Don't waste your 20's on grinding away at traditionally career-oriented stuff. That part of your brain is probably already fine. Your 20's is the time to look for diversity in your life, not to focus narrowly on any particular part. You've got all the decades afterward to work on narrow refinement and career progression...

gnaritas 14y ago
> "Your brain finishes forming in your 20′s". If that's even true (although I doubt it) It is true.
- peterwwillis 14y ago
  Good argument, pal.
  - 001sky 14y ago
    Its not an argument, its true physiologically, or so its been reported. Certain types of reasoning peak (in terms of horse-power or raw CPU type performance) in your 20's, similar to raw athleticism. But there are a whole host of factors, around plasticity, memory management, and actual memory (ie, empirical data) that allow more real-world performance at a later age/stage. To continue the computer analogy, the fastest chip doesnt always win, if you have GPU, L1/L2 cach, improved bus-speed, SSD storage, and better written software....etc. Similary, in certain sports world-class athletes improve well beyond their peak physiology. Himilayan mountain climbing is the classic example of peak perfomance <not> being in your 20's.

grecy 14y ago

Ugh. I've been having this conversation a lot lately. > Your 20′s lay the groundwork for success in the rest of your career. Can also be said as: While in your 20's, you should start living like you're in your 30's, 40's and 50's, so you can do that and only that for your entire life. I completely reject that way of thinking. There are many things we all want to do in our 20's we will not want to do later in life, which is all the more reason to do them in your 20's, lest you never get to do them at all. As anecdotal evidence, I spent 2 years of my life from 27-29 driving from Alaska to Argentina, because I wanted to. Will I want to sleep in a tent for >500 nights when I'm 50? doubtful. Am I extremely happy that I did? You bet, best experience of my life. Did it "harm" my career? No, I'm working right now as a Software Engineer.

jonstjohn 14y ago
Absolutely agree with you. I went on a wild adventure through my 20s, spending time in Alaska, working as a baker, managing an organic farm for several years - living for the most part from the seat of my pants just following what felt right. I'm sure I sacrificed some aspects of a 'career' because of it but I had an incredible life experience. And when I turned 30 I met the love of my life, finally committed full time to developing software (after a number of fits and starts) and never looked back. I never spend a day feeling like I 'missed out on something'. Rather, I'm really enjoying my life where it is at right now, cool career, wonderful wife and 2 1/2 year old son. I do kind of look forward to when my son gets a little older though so I can get a van and take him on some wild adventures ;)

agentultra 14y ago

Good luck trying to tell other people how they should live their lives. I can tell you that there are probably a hundred things I could've done better with my time in my twenties. However there was no way that I would have known then what I would be like today and what makes me happy now. Back then I thought I would keep gigging in bands and I'd scrape together a record label and have a long career in music. That's what made me happy at the time and what I sought out to do. How could I have known that I would change? I have a wife now and a daughter on the way, I've become a mild-mannered programmer who enjoys mathematics and literature, and rather than getting pissed on a Friday night and making a lot of noise I like to hang out with my friends and play board games. But if I was wiser I might have went to university and worked on getting a PhD then I'd probably be better off now, today. Hindsight... What I'm saying is that humans are terrible planners. We're good at adapting and adjusting but we can never seem to be able to accurately predict outcomes. I think that we glorify those people who seem to far surpass the status quo and bend their stories into myth. It's romantic to think that Einstein or Steve Jobs had set out to change the world when they were young but if we're honest about their history it's more likely that they drifted towards those things and all the right pieces were in place at the right time to make great things happen. And it doesn't end when you hit thirty. I'm still as ambitious as ever and I see new currents that I'd like to follow that I would never have thought possible before. You don't just become a dumb, boring, cantankerous old person over night. Quite the contrary; I find that my tastes are far more refined, I can see dead-ends before going down the path, and I am more adverse to wasting my time. You start to see patterns in the ocean and can navigate the seas with ease. So plan all you want but be prepared to fight the current and the winds!

kpennell5 14y ago
Beautifully written, thanks for the insights.

engtech 14y ago

"2) Statistically, women need to have all their children by 35. According to the author, a woman’s ability to get pregnant plummets starting in her mid-thirties. To make matters worse, the odds of a miscarriage for a woman over 35 is one in four." Our family doctor gave the odds as 3 in 5. In practical experience, I know of four friends who have miscarried at 35 (after being pregnant for over 3 months), out of about 11 who had kids at that age. My wife and I have always suspected that the 3 out of 5 statistic also includes miscarriages in the first two months of pregnancy where you might not have been sure you were pregnant or late.

flyosity 14y ago
Just to chime in here, I personally know two 34+ year old moms who had children in the past 2 years with Down Syndrome, after having numerous miscarriages. It seems a lot of young geeky guys commenting here forget that it's not just men who have a child so if you want to have a kid in your 30s and 40s after building a career, it's going to be difficult to find a partner at that same age who has the same goals.
- viviantan 14y ago
  It's not just the age of the female partner that affects the child's health. As men age, the risk of passing genetic mutations (including those that cause diseases) onto their offspring increases. This article talks the study: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthiness/9492343/Men-advised-to-start-early-if-they-want-healthy-babies.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthiness/9492343/Men-ad... So if you're an older guy, having kids with a younger woman doesn't make this problem go away.
hudibras 14y ago
The one-in-four statistic is for miscarriages after the sixth week of pregnancy. In the general population, the percentage of miscarriages is 15%, or about one-in-six. One thing to keep in mind is that a miscarriage is not the end of the world. Heartbreaking, yes, but it's not too late to try again.
- 14y ago

wheels 14y ago

This is rather straw-man-ish. He equates having a fun, care-free life as ... working at Starbucks. I don't know anyone who's ever said, "Well, why don't you just work at Starbucks for a decade? It'll be fun and you can get a real job when you're 30!" What's actually said is more like, "Take a few months and a backpack and go travel somewhere" or "start a company with no idea if it'll pan out". Party. Start a band. Chase some girls [or guys]. Read a lot. It doesn't mean "throw away a decade" -- it means "do the important things that it'll be harder for you to get away with if 10 years from now you have a family and mortgage." I visited over 30 countries in my 20s. Even if that would have kept me from advancing my career (it didn't), I wouldn't trade that for being a year closer to a promotion in an IT job.

zpk 14y ago
"What's actually said is more like, "Take a few months and a backpack and go travel somewhere" or "start a company with no idea if it'll pan out". Party. Start a band. Chase some girls [or guys]. Read a lot." I am in my 30's and I hope to continue/start doing some of this.

peterwwillis 14y ago

There's only one thing about your age that definitively affects your life: Your body. Past concerns of the flesh, stop trying to box your experiences into meaningless numbers and just do things you want to do as you feel like it, at any age.

mrharrison 14y ago

Why you should take every moment seriously. Live life now!

staringispolite 14y ago

I don't know how I feel about a blog that drives you to click an Amazon affiliate link. Nevertheless, the points seem valid and thought-provoking. Thanks for sharing.

flyosity 14y ago

I don't like the idea that "having fun" and "building a career" are mutually exclusive entities that don't touch on a Venn diagram. I built a career in my 20s based on things that excited me as a teenager, and I'm still excited by my career and consider my job a lot of fun. I didn't live in exotic countries or lounge around aimlessly because I'd rather be designing and building software: that's my fun. I suspect a lot of people on HN feel the same way, and just because one person's idea of "fun" is to travel around the world doesn't mean that they have a monopoly on what fun means.

willholloway 14y ago

I have a different take: College Years, 18-23: This is the time to just be. You can treat college as a stressful strive-fest for meaningless grades, or you can treat it like a 4-5 year vacation. Optimize for gentleman's C's. You still get all the social and class benefits. 23-30: These are your prime productive years. This is the time to amass your fortune. 30 to death: Travel, play golf, foster community and friendships. Get married, have kids. All of these things will be much more enjoyable with some cash.

steve-howard 14y ago
It really just depends, doesn't it? We all regret some things, and we probably fail to appreciate some things we've done right.
tudorizer 14y ago
That's my plan :)

deleted 14y ago

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guylhem 14y ago

I disagree with a lot of the comments - and with the article point. We should not think about taking any age seriously or not, but of the bigger picture instead, ie one's goals in life. Unfortunately, they are not written down for you, and they can be quite hard to find. There are various algorithm that may work, but all I see in the article and the comments are basically 2 opposite proposals : - plan A: explore in your twenties to make sure you properly identify your goals - plan B : commit to your career in your twenties to take advantage of compounding interest (in life as in money) But we all know alternatives approaches - like iterating between exploration (finding a local maxima) and exploitation (taking advantage of this local maxima) I guess it all depends if you have already found your fancy, and all longs it will take to get you bored out of it, but it seems to be a much better approach - especially if you do not ignore the money aspect of your fancies (ie starting a band might be fun, but odds of financial return are low) Also, it seems to me a lot of the comments insist about family and children. These are individual decisions - not givens, something the author clearly stated ("if having a family is part of your life's goals"). Fortunately for men, there is no age limit (and if we keep our rate of technological progress in stem cells and differentiation into germinal lines, there is no reason why it couldn't be also possible for women) Currently, at least for 50% of the readers, age should not be factored in - opening the door for more iteration of the explore/exploit loop, with the always present opportunity to have kids. I guess I don't understand or I'm missing something, maybe like the preference of dating someone of a similar age (which might then impose its own preference on optimal child bearing age)

LVB 14y ago
Fortunately for men, there is no age limit Maybe. Some newer evidence shows older fathers are more likely to pass on genetic mutations. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444812704577605282821235136.html http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000087239639044481270457760...

milroc 14y ago

Concepts like this seem very specific to obtain a certain desired lifestyle rather than advice on how to live. 1) Don't put off your career: While I agree it mainly correlates to two things. a. Spend as much time as you can doing what you have a drive to do. (e.g: setting yourself to be financially above or where you were when you grew up, trying to start a band, or trying to create the next major startup). c. Make sure to live below your means. (i.e: Ensure if you make 100 dollars after tax regardless of pay 25 of it is being saved. This gets harder and harder as there is a asymptote decided by the market (cost of living) and situation (whether or not your parents basement is available) you live in). 2) Children: There is a lot of qualifications here that were taken in place in the article. While the clock is ticking and I agree, people look at children as a chore taken to ensure a certain lifestyle later in life; or just want them and are willing to sacrifice whatever else to enjoy having children. Both are generally the case but I feel the set of things that people choose to give up is too large. You should ensure that your finances should be in place to support them but the amount in which you should support them should vary based off of your financial situation (by this I do not limit it to the children's wants (less toys) but rather also the child's needs (why pay for a private school if you can't afford it? because it's worth the difference in learning experiences? What about no private school and finding other means of educating the child?)) 3) Brain Finishes Forming: Fight it if you think that this is going to be the case (and care; I know a very large set of people who enjoy being close minded. It means that their life is less complicated by relatively asinine decision making, when they would prefer the action portion of the work (I can't understand this but have debated it with individuals)).

milroc 14y ago
Advice on how to live is simple: 1) Learn (travel, fail at something, shadow someone) 2) Prune (decide what is worth learning (e.g does learning another programming language add much value compared to learning about the behaviors of a market or larger ones like learning about a girl)) I'm definitely going to look into this book because it seems like it helps people work on pruning which I believe is the hardest part of life. However I feel that you (Jason) may have taken away some wrong things from the book because: "This is how most successful people I know have built their careers, and it always starts small." While this may be one of the largest pipes that create your definition of success, it is not the only one. People may need the life experience of working as a barista before starting their career for several reasons; or they may want to work at a hostel while traveling for several years to learn more about the world. The rate in which careers develop vary greatly from person to person and at what point; why base it on the average successful individual?

davepeck 14y ago

There's no one path. It's good that our poets still keep things in perspective: http://www.panhala.net/Archive/The_Ball.html http://www.panhala.net/Archive/The_Ball.html

icesoldier 14y ago

The issue I have with seeing life advice posts is that I've begun to see this dichotomy between "follow your heart" advice and "follow your head" advice. And I personally have a split between the two: my degree is in CS and my current job is in programming, but by "pie in the sky" dreams involve writing and performing music. I happen to have more knowledge in the former as a consequence of my degree, but I didn't really passionately pursue any major side projects. (This hindered my job hunt slightly, but I still managed to circumvent it via personal connections. It does pay to know people, in my experience.) As I was closing in on the end of my college degree plan, I felt torn between these two seemingly divergent ends. As a result I crept into a disillusioned depression fueled by the realization that it was too late to switch degrees that wildly and by firsthand experience of the job hunt as a CS student from west Texas with little heart in the industry. So I'm just taking solace in the fact that I'm working a job with a really short commute and a good environment where I can go home at 5:00 and pursue music as a hobby. I might even notice eventually that my life's passion doesn't land in either music or programming, and to be honest I'd be okay with that if it gave me a direction to point in. But at this point, having only graduated from college this year (turning 23 next week), it feels like I just need to to something. Unfortunately, I feel like I'm coasting now that I've "made it" out into the world relatively unscathed.

jevanish 14y ago
Have you thought about trying to find the intersection of the two? Is there a company or something you can work on that takes advantage of both skillsets? I think the real challenge in life is to get heart and head in alignment. It's not easy, but who said it would be?
- icesoldier 14y ago
  I had put some thought in that direction, and thought about finding companies that made DAWs. However, this space turned up dead ends, at least when I was looking. The other thought I had was indie game dev, which I thought needed a bit more time investment than I had before it would pay off. (I was thinking in terms of when I was finishing college, after which I would have to escape the shadow of my parents, who can only be so nurturing.) And I like your point there about the challenge of life.

freyr 14y ago

There are some good points here, but my advice is that you should take your teens seriously. It seems like the prevailing advice today for anyone in their teens is to live their lives free of any commitments and as independent and undirected as possible. But lately I realized the importance of my teens to a degree I never had and it has changed how I plan to approach the last few years of my teens. I'm not going to wait until my twenties to move into my parent's house and work on my startup. I already live in their house, so why wait? Also, since everybody peaks in their twenties, why waste our best years making mistakes? By starting early, I'm getting lots of mistakes out of the way. By the time I hit my twenties, I'll be at peak performance and have tons of experience under my belt. But sometimes I wish I'd started as a tween.

unimpressive 14y ago
> But sometimes I wish I'd started as a tween. As someone who is a teen, and "taking their teens seriously."; I sometimes get this feeling. And then I laugh like crazy and go back to what I was doing.
neverm0re 14y ago
> Also, since everybody peaks in their twenties Oh how you're going to laugh at that one later on.
- freyr 14y ago
  My comment was meant as parody (I'm not actually in my teens), but I guess it missed the mark. I agree with the general sentiment of the article, but it would carry a lot more weight coming from someone who has actually lived a little.

nckbz 14y ago

What's the point? I'm 24 years old. Education was expensive, so I worked my way up as a programmer and web developer right out of high school. I've worked at some pretty big corporations and now I'm looking to buy a house while my friends are just getting out of University with junior developer positions while living at home. My co-workers are all around 10-20 years older than I am. I've made senior developer, but I won't be able to move into any type of management positions for another 5-10 years just because of my age. There's no additional advancement or benefits to a slightly early head start on a career. People who give advice like this probably don't remember what it was like to be this age. My advice? If you have the chance to see the world, have a cool college experience, or the opportunity to do something unique with your life follow through with it. Climbing the corporate ladder in any field at any age is difficult at best, but doing so at twenty? Probably one of the main drives behind talented 'kids' joining startups now days.

andreipop 14y ago

I find your desire to "build a large company" interesting - I shared this until I realized that almost nobody gets out of bed in the morning because they say "I want to build and run a large company" - this is fundamentally unsustainable. Instead finding problems you care about or find interesting might be more motivating and put less pressure on your psychological well being. This helps you get rid of the time pressure you seem to be feeling and will bring a new sense of focus and purpose.

grantph 14y ago

Here's some insight which I had with a senior partner at a "big 4 consulting" firm and their attitude to age. The buy up highly educated people in their 20's because they're cheap and eager to work. In fact, they're cheaper than most people when you do an hourly analysis (probably cheaper than cleaners). BUT... the simple fact is, they also know they burn out by their 30's. Life takes over. The doubt. What am I doing with my life? Why don't I have a family? Maybe I missed out on other things my friends were doing? By that stage, they no longer care about you because they've got a new batch of cheap 20's burning the midnight oil. However, the good news is that they noticed that there's a reversal when people reach their 40's. They've got experience in life and business. They're no longer in doubt mode. Ironically, these organizations have standard pitches to sell the career delusion. "People are our greatest assets" and similar rhetoric. The reality is ... THE DO NOT GIVE A CRAP ABOUT YOUR CAREER. Careers do NOT exist. It's like selling women the idea of being a "homemaker" in the 1950's. I have noticed that people are more likely to be successful in their 30's and 40's (read some evidence that suggested that too but can't remember the reference). People getting rich in their 20's is an aberration. Neuroplasticity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Brain_That_Changes_Itself http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Brain_That_Changes_Itself) also suggests that we never stop learning, so I have to disagree with point 3 "Your brain finishes forming in your 20′s." Dribble! That's like the rhetoric about careers. People just get lazy. What people have going for them in their 20's is no commitment and all the time in the world. But no experience which can also be a disadvantage. If you can recreate "no commitment" in your 30's-40's (20's + real experience), then you should excel because your ideas are more mature and hopefully clearer! You're more likely to be successful as an actor in your 30's for the same reasons!

sh_vipin 14y ago

Not sure if any other venture than Mc D was started in post-30s. I guess Mc D was started in 40s but otherwise most of the startups were founded by its owners in 20s itself.

xenen 14y ago

Having read a bunch of the comments and the OP, I think everyone has shared something that makes good sense. The problem is, though, that as much as these "lessons" make sense to us when reading them, it makes absolutely no sense to try and apply these lessons to ANOTHER PERSON. Each and every one of us have formed our own opinions about things, shaped by each and every one of our unique life experiences. To try and apply it to someone else is pointless, and futile. Instead, be happy. Do whatever it takes to find happiness. Apply whatever lessons are necessary to find the motivation behind YOUR happiness, and go after it. Strong, focused motivation is the most scarce resource for a human's life, and the path to finding that motivation is different for every one of us. We live for nothing else but the pursuit of happiness, and there's an infinite number of shapes it can be. Find yours.

sunjain 14y ago

On the contrary, I suggest 20s is the best time to explore who you actually are - so called "hippy" stuff. As later on it just becomes that much more difficult. Whether you end up building a great company or end up doing a regular job in your later years, it will not mean much if you did not find out who you actually are, what is your purpose in life (all those silly questions we all pondered sometimes but never actually pursued). Once explored thoroughly, and if the conclusion was that your purpose in life was to do a start-p(or startups) and establish a successful company, then it will be worth it. Otherwise, neither your startup will be successful, or if successful, your life will still be miserable. Better to figure all this out in 20s, instead of focusing primarily on your career.

deleted 14y ago

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taurath 14y ago

NO PRESSURE.

abdelmaalik 14y ago

how about: 'spend your thirties fixing all the mistakes you made in your twenties' there, now that sounds fun

weej 14y ago

>I need to develop as many of the skills I need to lead such a company now, because in a few years it may be difficult or almost impossible to grow in the ways necessary to handle the role. This neurological development is completely misinterpreted. I already posted on this exact topic not that long ago, but I'll reiterate. The poster is correct in noting neurological development does come with age in your 20s when one's frontal cortex (or lobes) of the brain fully develop. This has nothing to do with "developing new skills", but rather its your ability to control higher-order functioning. This could range from long term planning, motivation, and inhibition towards behavior. When you're young you're somewhat crazy and brash. This allows one to take chances, push the envelope, and reach breakthroughs. If anything this counters the poster's logic, and they should be creating a start-up in their teens instead. With that said it works both ways. The youth lack the ability fully reason, plan, and in SOME cases think logically through a problem (in the sense of understanding the repercussions of their actions).

chris123 14y ago

You should enjoy life, love, learn, teach, travel, and have fun from zero to death. The 20s are no different. I for one had an absolute blast in my 20s, did well financially, and didn't take myself "seriously." Different strokes for different folks. People should just plain think for themselves and NOT take themselves too seriously, IMHO :)

naturalethic 14y ago

Go fuck yourself. Seriously.

adrianwaj 14y ago

I'm on my feet, step aside man Get out my way, I got a mind of my own Beat all my fears as a young man Now that I'm grown, I don't fear the unknown -- Living Colour - Young Man - http://youtu.be/T7e2kVEFPrE http://youtu.be/T7e2kVEFPrE