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Why New Zealand is seeing an exodus of over-30s
- osullip 8mo agoThat is not the title
- wewewedxfgdf 8mo agoIs it because any NZ citizen gets to become citizens of Australia?
- rzzzwilson 8mo agoIt's not quite that simple. A NZ citizen needs to be resident in Australia for a period of time before applying for Australian citizenship. But it is certainly a lot easier than many other countries. https://immi.homeaffairs.gov.au/entering-and-leaving-australia/new-zealand-citizens/pathway-to-permanent-resident-and-citizenship https://immi.homeaffairs.gov.au/entering-and-leaving-austral...
- batiudrami 8mo agoYou can work freely and get access to Medicare (and vice-versa) so they’re more-or-less citizens anyway.
- acherion 8mo agoI'm pretty sure Kiwis can't vote in Aussie elections though. And they can be deported back to NZ.
- SuperNinKenDo 8mo agoNot really. More like a permanent resident, which is still pretty nice. In the past they were closer to citizens (and many older NZers who come over can be grandfathered into these privileges to one extent or another, with some extra red tape), but that has more to do with the legacy of the Commonwealth than current agreements.
- lostlogin 8mo agoAnd another feature of the system: if an Australian has any connection to NZ or knows where NZ is located, they’ll be deported to NZ if they turn out to be a criminal.
- postingawayonhn 8mo agoYes, they can after 4 years, although that was only a recent change. The bigger factor is that Australia and NZ have free movement between the countries for those who are a citizen of either.
- ares623 8mo agoIt's a pretty brutal negative feedback loop. This video explains it quite well https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBpgTgFF1ek https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBpgTgFF1ek Even immigrants are just using New Zealand as a stepping-stone country to later move to Australia.
- sefrost 8mo agoIt feels like people do this to Canada to get in to the USA as well. Ireland->UK seems to be increasing as well because of the Common Travel Area. I think a lot of historical agreements of this nature will not hold up in the era of mass international migration. The CTA is obviously a complex example.
- richardfeynman 8mo agoKiwi here. This is not a new phenomenon. Not sure why this is news.
- shalmanese 8mo agoTypically, Kiwis would leave after graduating university or in their mid-20s. That Kiwis 30 - 50 are leaving now is a relatively recent phenomena (18 -> 43K in 4 years).
- moogly 8mo agoI am not a Kiwi and I didn't know this was a thing until I read this article.
- stevoski 8mo agoI think this “story” started when The Economist did a filler article about it. The Economist article was based on some pretty weak understanding and knowledge of Kiwis and their culture of spending time abroad. From there the usual YouTube “experts” started stories on it. You know the type - they sound authoritative but they are basically regurgitating stuff from Wikipedia (or some Economist article) with some pretty screens and clickbaity thumbnails. Ultimately, there’s nothing behind this story. As has been the case since Pakehas arrived, lots of Kiwis go abroad and spend lots of time abroad, some go back, and some don’t, and meanwhile NZ’s population continues to grow. The trends grow and shrink based on relative health of the Aus and NZ economies.
- lostlogin 8mo agoMuldoon’s famous quote about New Zealanders moving to Australia comes to mind. It ‘raised the IQ of both countries’. https://www.mercatornet.com/raising_the_iq_of_both_countries https://www.mercatornet.com/raising_the_iq_of_both_countries
- Kina 8mo agoDon’t worry Peter Thiel will help change that after he destroys the functionality of most of the global economy since he’s basically asserted that New Zealand is his break glass refuge.
- ggm 8mo agoIn times past, Oz dislike of Kiwi property acquisition along the Gold Coast was possibly more pointed than the expected anti Japanese and anti Chinese racism. It doesn't do us any credit how quickly we fall back on these petty differences. I do feel very sorry for people struggling in the NZ economy and I can see why making the jump works for them, but it's got strong qualities of "you don't know what you've got 'till it's gone" -yes, Australia is a bigger more resilient economy overall by comparison but things can go pear shaped here fast too. I like NZ. I have family there. Some have made the jump back over here, some remain. I can believe I'd be happy there, and in that totally perverse outcome the Kiwi misfortune might mean more Australians my age moved over there, if inflation/deflation works out the right (wrong?) way. It's not likely right now, cost of living in NZ is a lot higher.
- damnitbuilds 8mo agoSadly predictable that Jacinda Ardern, the moronic do-gooder architect of this, is also leaving NZ for Australia. She's yet another trendy lefty who has now discovered that fucking up your country's economy to "do good" does nobody any good. From 2019: " New Zealand Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern criticized the tendency among countries to measure success by economic growth and gross domestic product at the 2019 Goalkeepers event on Wednesday, hosted by the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation. Ardern said that governments should instead focus on the general welfare of citizens and make investments in areas that unlock human potential. She pointed to New Zealand's new well-being budget that seeks to expand mental health services, reduce child poverty and homelessness, promote Indigenous rights, fight climate change, and expand opportunities. "Economic growth accompanied by worsening social outcomes is not success," Ardern said. "It is failure." " https://www.globalcitizen.org/en/content/jacinda-ardern-goalkeepers-unga-2019/ https://www.globalcitizen.org/en/content/jacinda-ardern-goal...
- lostlogin 8mo agoWe have a right wing government now and we are going backwards even quicker. Is this Ardern’s fault too?
- smt88 8mo agoSince you criticize Ardern's left-wing management, what countries and time periods can you point to in which a right-wing government massively improved quality of life? This would primarily mean higher wages, lower inflation, and general social well-being.
- roenxi 8mo agoBit of a tease, they don't explain why New Zealand are seeing an exodus in over-30s. I suspect there is an elephant in the room here that isn't being discussed. Particularly in that age range I doubt people are getting a sudden urge to adventure and excitement that they didn't feel in their 20s. These articles like to throw out random economic statistics as though they have explanatory power, but they really don't. What exactly are the policies at play here? > “Our wages are similar in Australia and employment law means longer probation periods, but the pros definitely outweigh the cons” It is just a minor point, but really. If a country has an employment problem, short probation periods are a terrible idea. To get employers to employ people the easiest strategy is to make it easy and safe for them to employ people. Let them hire and fire at will. What is it with people and this instinct to immediately make life harder for the only person willing to offer someone a job. If people are leaving the island and a contributing factor is they don't have jobs, make it easy to give them a job. Don't make it harder then do this mild surprise routine when they move somewhere where people can actually employ them.
- vasco 8mo agoFor the same reason governments put price controls in place during catastrophes. Because they never studied enough or believe their voters never studied enough to understand basic economics. Likely the latter. Governments believing their people too stupid to understand the right move is often the reason for implementing dumb measures.
- throwawaysleep 8mo agoA lot of it is that people get far more angry at price gouging than a shortage.
- vasco 8mo agoYes, because they don't understand economics. It's a classic "sounds bad but is actually the fastest way to solve the problem" situation. So we kill people by delaying more resources in order to keep the optics nice.
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- DaedalusII 8mo agonz has no meaningful economy. they have a real estate market and agriculture which has maxed out its productivity, because they have completely run out of land. they have cheap, generally low quality colleges, and attract middle class/rich asians to live there for a few years and get a strong passport. they also have a big problem with alcoholism and domestic violence, and an absurdly complicated tax system. 15% first nations and 15% asian immigrants, the 70% euro population is skewed elderly and contributes most of the tax receipts, and that includes a lot of brit retirees the problem is they run the country like canada/norway/australia/alaska, except those places all have enormous resource exports that pay for the welfare state. nz just has milk farms the median salary is less than USD $50k, and these people can get the EB3 greencard or just move to EU/ Australia
- Marsymars 8mo agoNot sure how well that particular comparison to Canada holds; median salary in Canada is less than 40k USD.
- deleted 8mo ago[deleted]
- sam_bristow 8mo agoI'll give you most of those criticisms, but I'm a little surprised you think our tax system is overly complicated. For the vast majority of people it's pretty much just a progressive PAYE income tax handled by your employer and a flat 15% GST/VAT on purchases without all the carve outs that seem common elsewhere. Genuinely curious what I'm missing.
- DaedalusII 8mo agothe capital gains tax system in nz is complicated and inconsistent compared to most countries, bright line tests the way that nz taxes foreign sourced income is also very complex with 'deeming rules' etc it results that rich people probably pay 10% total tax and normal people pay 20%+ income tax, and then normal people cant afford real estate and move to australia.
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- haunter 8mo agoWhy are we editorializing titles again? Became more and more common on HN recently >… please use the original title, unless it is misleading or linkbait; don't editorialize.
- barrenko 8mo agoNZ could have the similar issue as the "developed" countries of the EU (/ + UK) that seem to operate under a very mistaken belief that it's possible to stay "developed" without also being "developing" all the time.
- kinow 8mo agoI think during the pandemic a lot of kiwis returned from overseas. Once it was over they slowly started migrating as the economy wasn't really good. I did the same also to stay close to my wife's family for a few years before returning. It is pretty common I'd say, not big news. And living here in Spain, apparently the exact same happens. Young people normally study and work here. Many choose an Erasmus program or find job that pay 2 or 3 times more, especially in Germany, The Netherlands, Poland. We find it really difficult to hire good developers, especially seniors. Juniors are not too hard.
- munksbeer 8mo ago> We find it really difficult to hire good developers, especially seniors From what I understand, Spain offers pitiful salaries even to senior developers. And prices for property in the areas where they're being hired are not cheap at all. So decent developers have options, they can move to Ireland, Amsterdam, anywhere else in the EU where they can earn more.
- heraldgeezer 8mo ago[flagged]
- DeathArrow 8mo agoMost seem like hard working individuals aged 30+. So maybe the tax payers grew tired of the progressive taxes and subsidizing the welfare state and they seek places they think will be more fair to them.
- morepork 8mo agoThis is not new, the article spins it as a big increase using a low during COVID as a baseline. Alternative article with stats back to 2001: https://www.interest.co.nz/public-policy/137340/current-exodus-new-zealand-citizens-overseas-began-earnest-under-labour-while https://www.interest.co.nz/public-policy/137340/current-exod... Note also that the population has grown around 30% since 2001, so the rate is probably lower than in the 2000s. NZ is a small country, cities are small, it can be expensive, and the job market is relatively limited. For some it's made up for by the abundance of nature, the laid back attitudes, etc. but that's never going to be everyone's cup of tea.
- freefaler 8mo agoIt's mostly a no-brainer. Cost of living is higher than AU and wages are lower. Across the Tasman sea the market is 5 times bigger with real earning power around +30%. (but the weather is much more hot and from Brisbane up to the south the fauna tries to eat/sting/kill/bite you). Housing in Australia is still one of the worst thing about the country, but in NZ is not much better, may be even worse. So New Zealand will become like Switzerland of the Oceania. It's the most beautiful country in the world and the Southern Island is a magical place. Also, now it's less than 50% white, so it is a very diverse place, especially bigger cities like Auckland and Wellington. So in the bigger cities you can find a lot of good international food and culture too. I think from a HN prespective if you have an internet business and don't mind the time zone difference and you're earining enough, NZ iz a fantastic place that is safe, clean, first world country, diverse and super beautiful, outdoor lover's paradise.
- jemmyw 8mo agoNZ is not less that 50% white. Auckland is <50% European ethnicity, but the county as a whole is just below 70% European ethnicity.
- hagbard_c 8mo agoOT: from Brisbane up to the south the fauna... made me scratch my head for a millisecond until I thought about it from a southern hemisphere standpoint. As a northerner I think of Oz and the likes as being 'down under (unsaid: the equator)' so I suspect you southerners think of Europe and the likes as 'down under' as well.
- munksbeer 8mo agoNo, I don't think so. I live in London, but I have had quite a few Australian friends over the years and I they don't think upside down. I don't get the "from Brisbane up to the south" comment.
- hagbard_c 8mo agoIt might be an intentional 'non-northern-hemisphere-centric' construct. I had not heard it before but in a way it does make sense given that a sphere does not have a defined 'top' and 'bottom'. Then again the one we live on has a defined 'north' and 'south' and north tends to be thought of as 'up'.