6 ms·

OpenAI CEO Sam Altman Defends Pentagon Work to Staff

85 points by cdrnsf 8mo ago

jesse_dot_id 8mo ago
It's not quite as bad as working for X, xAI, or Tesla, but engineers continuing to work for these companies are taking hits to their reputation as far as I'm concerned. Like, if I see it on a resume beyond a certain date, I'm not considering them types of reputational damage.
- seattle_spring 8mo ago
  I've seen people saying that about Meta/Facebook for a decade, but I still don't see any tangible damage to former employee's ability to get jobs. The OpenAI situation seems much closer to FB-scale politics than X though.
  - jesse_dot_id 8mo ago
    I mostly agree with you re: Meta/Facebook except that things are becoming a lot more politically volatile than they have been in the past. Generally, I think that most people believe that the more intelligent you are, the more empathetic you are, so at some point if your evil company is doing big destructive evils, the smartest engineers will probably bail.
    - junofan 8mo ago
      Depending on jurisdiction, it’s maybe not that smart to hop on the internet and write “if I see it on a resume beyond a certain date, I'm not considering them” and “things are becoming a lot more politically volatile” either.
    - GlacierFox 8mo ago
      "Generally, I think that most people believe that the more intelligent you are, the more empathetic you are..." Okay, you might need to re-evaluate the life lessons you seem to have selectively taught yourself. This is base line culture war 'You must be mentally deficient if you don't align with what I deem to be empathetic right now or I don't think you're nice enough' type stuff. High school type shit.
      - jesse_dot_id 8mo ago
        https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0160289618301466 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01602...
        GlacierFox 8mo ago
        A study set out to investigate why the stupids lack empathy? Where did the premise for this bullshit come from? Haha
  - rybosworld 8mo ago
    I think Amazon is a better example. It's a thing that some companies prefer not to hire engineers from Amazon because of the culture they bring. Whether you agree with it or not, Amazon has a reputation for a toxic culture and that sort of thing can ruin a smaller or medium size company if it seeps in.
    - KK7NIL 8mo ago
      OP wasn't talking about culture, he was talking about discriminating due to differences in political opinions, very different.
      - jesse_dot_id 8mo ago
        *ethical opinions
  - parl_match 8mo ago
    > but I still don't see any tangible damage to former employee's ability to get jobs I have. I've also seen it happen for Uber, for someone who worked on the god mode project that went viral for being used at holiday parties.
- onesociety2022 8mo ago
  I assume you work at some small startup where you get to dictate who you will hire based on your interpretation of what a candidate’s past work history tells you about their morals/ethics. But that shit won’t fly if you are interviewing at other large companies. You can’t reject someone just because they have OpenAI on their resume. In fact I have never heard of any FAANG company ever blacklisting candidates from some other company. So you rejecting someone is not going to move the needle much. They can leave OpenAI whenever they want and Zuck will offer them 8-9 figure pay packages :)
  - kuang_eleven 8mo ago
    Oh, you absolutely can; maybe not as a matter of formal policy, but if you are a hiring manager or a member of an interview team, you have wide latitude to have concerns about nearly anything (legal) about a candidate. And also, even if you don't use that explicitly, it can affect your judgement of them when discussing them to an interview committee.
    - thierrydamiba 8mo ago
      This thread is simultaneously horrifying and hilarious at the same time. Hilarious because onesociety2022 seems so earnest. Someone who is shocked at the idea that job search isn’t a pure meritocracy. Horrifying because kuang_eleven points out just how easy it is to pass a qualified candidate if you want to. The truth is somewhere in the middle…
    - mathisfun123 8mo ago
      lol absolutely none of these things will fly on an interview feedback in any big company > even if you don't use that explicitly, it can affect your judgement of them when discussing them to an interview committee my friend that's literally unethical.
      - aaronbrethorst 8mo ago
        Bad news, Voltaire didn't actually say that thing about 'defending your speech to the death.'
- himata4113 8mo ago
  Honestly, would be the complete opposite for me if I was an interviewer (thankfully I am not and never will). You don't want fussy employees.
  - ihaveajob 8mo ago
    So you want yes-men in your team?
    - ecshafer 8mo ago
      No, you just dont want people that will start interrupting work, causing a ruckus, starts signing open letters, or randomly quits based on whatever blue sky post they read last.
  - nickthegreek 8mo ago
    not working at xAI makes you a fussy employee?
    - himata4113 8mo ago
      fussy is a strong word, didn't mean it like that, but it is the fastest way to communicate it.
  - trinsic2 8mo ago
    Yeah I don't work for fussy employers either. (Sarcasm) the shit goes both ways brother.
    - himata4113 8mo ago
      Exactly my point, as long as you pick a lane you will be good on both sides it's not an advantage or a disadvantage. I will correct myself: Your employer might not want fussy employees (ex: palantir).
      - trinsic2 8mo ago
- game_the0ry 8mo ago
  This is so lame. Don't judge employees for what their CEOs do bc they do not have a choice in the matter. That resume you toss might be someone that needs to pay a mortgage, has a sick wife, or autistic kid that needs the insurance. Or it could come from an employee who genuinely disagrees with mission and quit, but its not like you would know or even care. What if your CEO went politically rogue and started openly supporting Trump? Would you quit? I doubt that. What a childish attitude. Get your politics TF out of the office and remember the fact that we live in a democracy where sometimes you do not get your way.
  - paulryanrogers 8mo ago
    > What if your CEO went politically rogue and started openly supporting Trump? Would you quit? I doubt that. Yes. I would. Trump is a uniquely dangerous president with uniquely unrestrained power. I'll continue to write my representatives, publicly protest, boycott businesses and employers, and use all other legal levers of power that I can. My kids future cannot afford to let these crimes continue unchecked. > Get your politics TF out of the office... A large portion of our lives is spent at the office, with people we may not otherwise interact with. Former coworkers sharing their perspectives helped sow the seeds of my change in politics, both on individual issues and worldview. It's childish to think life can be perfectly compartmentalized, like pre-K learning stations.
    - politician 8mo ago
      In your understanding of the constitution, is the executive branch subordinate to the other two branches?
      - paulryanrogers 8mo ago
        In my view the judicial and legislative branches should be no less powerful than the executive. If there is truly an impasse the legislative branch should win because it is the most diverse and direct representation of the people. I also have other crazy ideas like money isn't speech, ranked choice voting, same-day primaries, outlawing private financing of campaigns, bribery is accepting compensation even if before the action being bought, abolishing the electoral college and the US Senate, and no one is above investigation or the law--not even in their official capacity.
- iugtmkbdfil834 8mo ago
  I don't get it. Interesting problems are interesting problems. Granted, I don't think you see those at X, but xAI, Tesla or Meta? Sure. I am not even arguing 'money' or 'man gotta eat', but just seems like such an arbitrary thing to flag.. especially since it won't be documented anywhere ( 'we are anti-Tesla house' banner on main page for example). It is silly.
  - whattheheckheck 8mo ago
    It ain't silly. You're working for Hitler
  - driscoll42 8mo ago
    Interesting problems don't exist in a vacuum. I'm sure it was an interesting problem to figure out how to track people who opted out of tracking, how to build gas chambers, how to add lead to gasoline, doesn't mean one should choose to solve them.
    - Arainach 8mo ago
      > how to add lead to gasoline Your other examples line up, but this wasn't a problem being solved - engine knock was a problem being solved.
  - Arainach 8mo ago
    If we are going to claim to be software "engineers" we have ethical obligations. That means that you don't just do whatever the person signing your paycheck says, you raise objections and refuse to do things that will cause harm. In real engineering disciplines, engineers sign their name to key decisions and if people get hurt someone loses their license and their right to do engineering work. The world would be a better place if software worked that way, although it'd be harder for a bunch of sociopaths to become billionaires.
  - tadfisher 8mo ago
    I guess you could consider "literally building Skynet" to be an interesting problem, but you have got to have some pieces missing if "interesting" is the most appropriate assessment of that work.
tombert 8mo ago
The backlash is "painful"? Maybe don't make a moralizing tweet about your principles only to change them three hours later. It comes off as opportunistic grifting. I don't blame the OpenAI staff (and as far as I am aware most people don't). Most of us end up working for assholes if you go far enough up the chain, but it's different when the CEO tries to earn social credit by having his principles, only to seize on an opportunity and just ignore those principles. He can say "oh well they pinky swore they wouldn't abuse this or redefine laws to say what they're doing is 'lawful'", but I personally would have trouble trusting the words of a convicted fraudster lolcow that we decided to elect as president and an alcoholic Fox News host. I guess that makes me a "radical leftist" though, I'm sure that the 10000 IQ people always trust convicted criminals. I'm sure Sam Altman will make his money, and I'm sure that OpenAI will continue to take over the world like before, but I don't have to fund it myself, hence why I canceled my ChatGPT Plus and signed up for Claude. I'm sure that the CEO for that company will be a douche eventually too, but at least as of right now he seems to have a shrapnel of integrity. I can't read most of the article because most of the common archiving sites don't appear to work.
- df2dfs 8mo ago
  "I'm sure that OpenAI will continue to take over the world like before" Each day that goes by Im more convinced OAI will not be a healthy going-concern without government help, which most likely will not be granted.
  - tombert 8mo ago
    I dunno. They were valued last week at $700+ billion weren't they? When you have that kind of capital available I'm not entirely sure how possible it even is to go bankrupt. Regardless, my point is that one dude canceling his $20/month subscription probably isn't going to affect anything, but it's basically all I can do.
    - df2dfs 8mo ago
      "They were valued last week at $700+ billion weren't they?" So? The money they have available is what is on the balance sheet, which they are burning right-through whilst facing immense competition and never-ending reinvestment, given that Google will carry on doing so. Cash flows from operations is a big fat negative. I see Google first killing OAI, then eventually doing the same to Anthropic, once they figure out a suite of products that truly revolutionises the work of a sofware engineer beyond just talking to a chat interface, and bundle it into their existing offerings for enterprise.
ranger_danger 8mo ago
> Access is temporarily restricted > We detected unusual activity from your device or network. Anyone have an alternative link? The archive.* sites are also an endless captcha loop for me unfortunately. And no I am not using any VPN or CF DNS/etc.
- mcswell 8mo ago
  I'm getting lots of that "We detected unusual activity from your device or network" lately. I even went through my ISP to change my IP address, to no effect. If there really is "unusual activity", I wish they'd be a bit more specific.
  - JCharante 8mo ago
    HN bans IPs for unusual activity too, luckily they have a human friendly way to get unbanned.
- SockThief 8mo ago
  I usually skip WSJ articles because of that, but this worked when I checked: https://smry.ai/proxy?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.wsj.com%2Ftech%2Fai%2Fopenai-ceo-altman-defends-pentagon-work-to-staff-calls-backlash-really-painful-76d769ec https://smry.ai/proxy?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.wsj.com%2Ftech%2... PS. I can't be sure if it's the whole article, not just some AI summary thou.
vldszn 8mo ago
I built a website that shows a timeline of recent events involving Anthropic, OpenAI, and the U.S. government. Posted here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47195085 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47195085
globalnode 8mo ago
blaming open ai emps is like blaming current germans for ww2. that sort of collective moral guilt, sometimes even inherited, is simply unfair and stupid. i get that people want to undermine companies' support structure and that their dream is probably to guilt shame open ai's employees into quitting. but it feels like people trying to score points for their own agenda, claim the moral high ground, and label entire groups of people with some sort of guilt by association. its fake. its a game. and they know it.
- OJFord 8mo ago
  I don't like the analogy anyway, but why 'current Germans'? Surely 'pre-enrolled rank and file of the contemporary military' would be more apt?
  - ImPostingOnHN 8mo ago
    "IBM employee who built the software which effectuated the holocaust while knowing that was what it was being used for" is probably more apt.
- rcoder 8mo ago
  But we’re not taking about a 80-year gap here (“blaming modern Germans”); we’re talking about people who are in the global top 5% of income and prestige choosing _today_ to contribute to these organizations. If you believe that your labor is worth something — which I’m pretty sure this crowd does — by working for a given firm, you’re voting with the value of your time in support of what your employer does. Which, to be clear, is 100% your choice! I’m not going to accuse anyone of being a “bad person” because they decide that stable, high-paying employment is more important than taking a particular ethical (or political) stand at work. But it _is_ a choice that you make every day by showing up for work. In my view this is even more relevant for tech workers who receive equity. If you’re a shareholder in addition to being an employee, you’re now voting _twice_ in favor of what management is doing, and benefitting directly from both pay and ownership.
  - globalnode 8mo ago
furryrain 8mo ago
I'm surprised this thread is only on page 5, despite 65 pts and 66 comments in 3 hours. What other factors go into listing position?

85 points by cdrnsf 8mo ago

It's not quite as bad as working for X, xAI, or Tesla, but engineers continuing to work for these companies are taking hits to their reputation as far as I'm concerned. Like, if I see it on a resume beyond a certain date, I'm not considering them types of reputational damage.

seattle_spring 8mo ago
I've seen people saying that about Meta/Facebook for a decade, but I still don't see any tangible damage to former employee's ability to get jobs. The OpenAI situation seems much closer to FB-scale politics than X though.
- jesse_dot_id 8mo ago
  I mostly agree with you re: Meta/Facebook except that things are becoming a lot more politically volatile than they have been in the past. Generally, I think that most people believe that the more intelligent you are, the more empathetic you are, so at some point if your evil company is doing big destructive evils, the smartest engineers will probably bail.
  - junofan 8mo ago
    Depending on jurisdiction, it’s maybe not that smart to hop on the internet and write “if I see it on a resume beyond a certain date, I'm not considering them” and “things are becoming a lot more politically volatile” either.
  - GlacierFox 8mo ago
    "Generally, I think that most people believe that the more intelligent you are, the more empathetic you are..." Okay, you might need to re-evaluate the life lessons you seem to have selectively taught yourself. This is base line culture war 'You must be mentally deficient if you don't align with what I deem to be empathetic right now or I don't think you're nice enough' type stuff. High school type shit.
    - jesse_dot_id 8mo ago
      https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0160289618301466 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01602...
      - GlacierFox 8mo ago
        A study set out to investigate why the stupids lack empathy? Where did the premise for this bullshit come from? Haha
- rybosworld 8mo ago
  I think Amazon is a better example. It's a thing that some companies prefer not to hire engineers from Amazon because of the culture they bring. Whether you agree with it or not, Amazon has a reputation for a toxic culture and that sort of thing can ruin a smaller or medium size company if it seeps in.
  - KK7NIL 8mo ago
    OP wasn't talking about culture, he was talking about discriminating due to differences in political opinions, very different.
    - jesse_dot_id 8mo ago
      *ethical opinions
- parl_match 8mo ago
  > but I still don't see any tangible damage to former employee's ability to get jobs I have. I've also seen it happen for Uber, for someone who worked on the god mode project that went viral for being used at holiday parties.
onesociety2022 8mo ago
I assume you work at some small startup where you get to dictate who you will hire based on your interpretation of what a candidate’s past work history tells you about their morals/ethics. But that shit won’t fly if you are interviewing at other large companies. You can’t reject someone just because they have OpenAI on their resume. In fact I have never heard of any FAANG company ever blacklisting candidates from some other company. So you rejecting someone is not going to move the needle much. They can leave OpenAI whenever they want and Zuck will offer them 8-9 figure pay packages :)
- kuang_eleven 8mo ago
  Oh, you absolutely can; maybe not as a matter of formal policy, but if you are a hiring manager or a member of an interview team, you have wide latitude to have concerns about nearly anything (legal) about a candidate. And also, even if you don't use that explicitly, it can affect your judgement of them when discussing them to an interview committee.
  - thierrydamiba 8mo ago
    This thread is simultaneously horrifying and hilarious at the same time. Hilarious because onesociety2022 seems so earnest. Someone who is shocked at the idea that job search isn’t a pure meritocracy. Horrifying because kuang_eleven points out just how easy it is to pass a qualified candidate if you want to. The truth is somewhere in the middle…
  - mathisfun123 8mo ago
    lol absolutely none of these things will fly on an interview feedback in any big company > even if you don't use that explicitly, it can affect your judgement of them when discussing them to an interview committee my friend that's literally unethical.
    - aaronbrethorst 8mo ago
      Bad news, Voltaire didn't actually say that thing about 'defending your speech to the death.'
himata4113 8mo ago
Honestly, would be the complete opposite for me if I was an interviewer (thankfully I am not and never will). You don't want fussy employees.
- ihaveajob 8mo ago
  So you want yes-men in your team?
  - ecshafer 8mo ago
    No, you just dont want people that will start interrupting work, causing a ruckus, starts signing open letters, or randomly quits based on whatever blue sky post they read last.
- nickthegreek 8mo ago
  not working at xAI makes you a fussy employee?
  - himata4113 8mo ago
    fussy is a strong word, didn't mean it like that, but it is the fastest way to communicate it.
- trinsic2 8mo ago
  Yeah I don't work for fussy employers either. (Sarcasm) the shit goes both ways brother.
  - himata4113 8mo ago
    Exactly my point, as long as you pick a lane you will be good on both sides it's not an advantage or a disadvantage. I will correct myself: Your employer might not want fussy employees (ex: palantir).
    - trinsic2 8mo ago
game_the0ry 8mo ago
This is so lame. Don't judge employees for what their CEOs do bc they do not have a choice in the matter. That resume you toss might be someone that needs to pay a mortgage, has a sick wife, or autistic kid that needs the insurance. Or it could come from an employee who genuinely disagrees with mission and quit, but its not like you would know or even care. What if your CEO went politically rogue and started openly supporting Trump? Would you quit? I doubt that. What a childish attitude. Get your politics TF out of the office and remember the fact that we live in a democracy where sometimes you do not get your way.
- paulryanrogers 8mo ago
  > What if your CEO went politically rogue and started openly supporting Trump? Would you quit? I doubt that. Yes. I would. Trump is a uniquely dangerous president with uniquely unrestrained power. I'll continue to write my representatives, publicly protest, boycott businesses and employers, and use all other legal levers of power that I can. My kids future cannot afford to let these crimes continue unchecked. > Get your politics TF out of the office... A large portion of our lives is spent at the office, with people we may not otherwise interact with. Former coworkers sharing their perspectives helped sow the seeds of my change in politics, both on individual issues and worldview. It's childish to think life can be perfectly compartmentalized, like pre-K learning stations.
  - politician 8mo ago
    In your understanding of the constitution, is the executive branch subordinate to the other two branches?
    - paulryanrogers 8mo ago
      In my view the judicial and legislative branches should be no less powerful than the executive. If there is truly an impasse the legislative branch should win because it is the most diverse and direct representation of the people. I also have other crazy ideas like money isn't speech, ranked choice voting, same-day primaries, outlawing private financing of campaigns, bribery is accepting compensation even if before the action being bought, abolishing the electoral college and the US Senate, and no one is above investigation or the law--not even in their official capacity.
iugtmkbdfil834 8mo ago
I don't get it. Interesting problems are interesting problems. Granted, I don't think you see those at X, but xAI, Tesla or Meta? Sure. I am not even arguing 'money' or 'man gotta eat', but just seems like such an arbitrary thing to flag.. especially since it won't be documented anywhere ( 'we are anti-Tesla house' banner on main page for example). It is silly.
- whattheheckheck 8mo ago
  It ain't silly. You're working for Hitler
- driscoll42 8mo ago
  Interesting problems don't exist in a vacuum. I'm sure it was an interesting problem to figure out how to track people who opted out of tracking, how to build gas chambers, how to add lead to gasoline, doesn't mean one should choose to solve them.
  - Arainach 8mo ago
    > how to add lead to gasoline Your other examples line up, but this wasn't a problem being solved - engine knock was a problem being solved.
- Arainach 8mo ago
  If we are going to claim to be software "engineers" we have ethical obligations. That means that you don't just do whatever the person signing your paycheck says, you raise objections and refuse to do things that will cause harm. In real engineering disciplines, engineers sign their name to key decisions and if people get hurt someone loses their license and their right to do engineering work. The world would be a better place if software worked that way, although it'd be harder for a bunch of sociopaths to become billionaires.
- tadfisher 8mo ago
  I guess you could consider "literally building Skynet" to be an interesting problem, but you have got to have some pieces missing if "interesting" is the most appropriate assessment of that work.

tombert 8mo ago

The backlash is "painful"? Maybe don't make a moralizing tweet about your principles only to change them three hours later. It comes off as opportunistic grifting. I don't blame the OpenAI staff (and as far as I am aware most people don't). Most of us end up working for assholes if you go far enough up the chain, but it's different when the CEO tries to earn social credit by having his principles, only to seize on an opportunity and just ignore those principles. He can say "oh well they pinky swore they wouldn't abuse this or redefine laws to say what they're doing is 'lawful'", but I personally would have trouble trusting the words of a convicted fraudster lolcow that we decided to elect as president and an alcoholic Fox News host. I guess that makes me a "radical leftist" though, I'm sure that the 10000 IQ people always trust convicted criminals. I'm sure Sam Altman will make his money, and I'm sure that OpenAI will continue to take over the world like before, but I don't have to fund it myself, hence why I canceled my ChatGPT Plus and signed up for Claude. I'm sure that the CEO for that company will be a douche eventually too, but at least as of right now he seems to have a shrapnel of integrity. I can't read most of the article because most of the common archiving sites don't appear to work.

df2dfs 8mo ago
"I'm sure that OpenAI will continue to take over the world like before" Each day that goes by Im more convinced OAI will not be a healthy going-concern without government help, which most likely will not be granted.
- tombert 8mo ago
  I dunno. They were valued last week at $700+ billion weren't they? When you have that kind of capital available I'm not entirely sure how possible it even is to go bankrupt. Regardless, my point is that one dude canceling his $20/month subscription probably isn't going to affect anything, but it's basically all I can do.
  - df2dfs 8mo ago
    "They were valued last week at $700+ billion weren't they?" So? The money they have available is what is on the balance sheet, which they are burning right-through whilst facing immense competition and never-ending reinvestment, given that Google will carry on doing so. Cash flows from operations is a big fat negative. I see Google first killing OAI, then eventually doing the same to Anthropic, once they figure out a suite of products that truly revolutionises the work of a sofware engineer beyond just talking to a chat interface, and bundle it into their existing offerings for enterprise.

ranger_danger 8mo ago

> Access is temporarily restricted > We detected unusual activity from your device or network. Anyone have an alternative link? The archive.* sites are also an endless captcha loop for me unfortunately. And no I am not using any VPN or CF DNS/etc.

mcswell 8mo ago
I'm getting lots of that "We detected unusual activity from your device or network" lately. I even went through my ISP to change my IP address, to no effect. If there really is "unusual activity", I wish they'd be a bit more specific.
- JCharante 8mo ago
  HN bans IPs for unusual activity too, luckily they have a human friendly way to get unbanned.
SockThief 8mo ago
I usually skip WSJ articles because of that, but this worked when I checked: https://smry.ai/proxy?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.wsj.com%2Ftech%2Fai%2Fopenai-ceo-altman-defends-pentagon-work-to-staff-calls-backlash-really-painful-76d769ec https://smry.ai/proxy?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.wsj.com%2Ftech%2... PS. I can't be sure if it's the whole article, not just some AI summary thou.

vldszn 8mo ago

I built a website that shows a timeline of recent events involving Anthropic, OpenAI, and the U.S. government. Posted here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47195085 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47195085

globalnode 8mo ago

blaming open ai emps is like blaming current germans for ww2. that sort of collective moral guilt, sometimes even inherited, is simply unfair and stupid. i get that people want to undermine companies' support structure and that their dream is probably to guilt shame open ai's employees into quitting. but it feels like people trying to score points for their own agenda, claim the moral high ground, and label entire groups of people with some sort of guilt by association. its fake. its a game. and they know it.

OJFord 8mo ago
I don't like the analogy anyway, but why 'current Germans'? Surely 'pre-enrolled rank and file of the contemporary military' would be more apt?
- ImPostingOnHN 8mo ago
  "IBM employee who built the software which effectuated the holocaust while knowing that was what it was being used for" is probably more apt.
rcoder 8mo ago
But we’re not taking about a 80-year gap here (“blaming modern Germans”); we’re talking about people who are in the global top 5% of income and prestige choosing _today_ to contribute to these organizations. If you believe that your labor is worth something — which I’m pretty sure this crowd does — by working for a given firm, you’re voting with the value of your time in support of what your employer does. Which, to be clear, is 100% your choice! I’m not going to accuse anyone of being a “bad person” because they decide that stable, high-paying employment is more important than taking a particular ethical (or political) stand at work. But it _is_ a choice that you make every day by showing up for work. In my view this is even more relevant for tech workers who receive equity. If you’re a shareholder in addition to being an employee, you’re now voting _twice_ in favor of what management is doing, and benefitting directly from both pay and ownership.
- globalnode 8mo ago

furryrain 8mo ago

I'm surprised this thread is only on page 5, despite 65 pts and 66 comments in 3 hours. What other factors go into listing position?