5 ms·

> You can maybe get a cheaper Windows laptop but it will be terrible in almost everything It will be worse at almost everything, except running my preferred OS

by mikae1 7mo ago

> You can maybe get a cheaper Windows laptop but it will be terrible in almost everything It will be worse at almost everything, except running my preferred OS (Linux). Being able to upgrade/repair RAM, storage and battery at home is quite a perk too.

jruz 7mo ago
Not on the latest but I’m happily running Asahi NixOS
- mikae1 7mo ago
  Even for the M1 generation feature support is not complete. Also, this a thread about current models. Asahi is still awesome though!
  - dangus 7mo ago
    And if you are comparing against an M1 or M2 you can find numerous PC laptops that will beat that out in performance and still have a quiet/cool/long battery life operation. Yes, the MacBook Air is unique-ish for having no fan at all, but a slow running fan that you can barely hear is going to get you more performance with basically zero added cost or compromise. And for those users who don’t need top performance and just need an affordable office app machine, I’d argue that Snapdragon laptops have the same primary benefits as the MacBook Air. In terms of competition against x86, Apple is only ahead of competition in their latest two or so generations and only in specific ways. Want to play games sometimes like 936 million other PC gamers in the world? (The fastest growing segment of people who buy computers) You’ll pay a lot less for an Omen Transcend 14 than a MacBook Pro at the same specs and you’ll get a system with a very similar noise and battery life profile, along with far Better graphics performance. I don’t personally think Windows is so bad compared to Mac in terms of annoyances. Mac nags you about all of Apple’s subscription services and you can’t even uninstall their apps like News and Stocks. Microsoft lets you uninstall everything including Notepad. It’s really not that annoying after about 5 minutes changing settings and uninstalling some things. If we are talking about buying a used Mac we are also talking about buying a computer that will lose software support before the Windows equivalent historically. E.g., you buy an M2 MacBook Air and you’ve got about 7 years left or less before you lose major OS versions. Almost guarantee you that won’t be the case with any reasonably recent Windows PC that supports 11 today. My
    - MoonWalk 7mo ago
      Not true. Mac OS does not nag you about subscription services. What are you talking about? Windows is offensive, insufferable trash. From its CONTINUAL hounding about "your Microsoft account" to its bug-riddled, regressive, and shambolic UI. Things Windows users took for granted 40 years ago are simply gone. Example: Select three PNGs in Explorer and right-click on them, and look for "Open with..."
      - dangus 7mo ago
        Literally the moment you buy a Mac. Apple hardware comes with 3 month trials of various subscriptions, and you get a notification about it. They try to get you to sign up in hopes you’ll forget to cancel. When I bought my iPhone 17 the sales associate even tried to pitch signing up for the trial in person as he guided me through the purchase process. When you cancel the trial it ends it immediately instead of ending it at the end of your trial period, a dark pattern designed to encourage you to forget to end your trial. Apple devices also nag you about buying AppleCare in the system preferences. I’ve never been hounded about my Microsoft account. Be specific. When does this happen? Yes, you need one to set up Windows 11 (just like a Mac and especially iOS are basically useless without an Apple account anyway), but after that I’ve never been hounded around anything related to it. Never had problems figuring out how to open stuff in Windows. No idea what you’re saying. Most of these extreme claims about Windows seem to come from people who don’t even use the OS regularly and have forgotten about the ways in which macOS does many of the same commercial OS practices.
        sitharus 7mo ago
        Every time my Windows gaming PC updates it nags me about setting up backups to OneDrive. I cannot install Windows without a Microsoft account unless I apply work-arounds. It constantly offers Office 365, even adding dummy icons to the start menu. There are adverts on the login screen. To be fair I installed Bazzite there, but for a laptop I cannot find an equivalent device at the same price point even ignoring the need for linux drivers.
- SXX 7mo ago
  On M1 there are still issues with wifi not recovering after sleep and for me its just disappear sometimes. Something like Framework is more expensive thanks to RAM abd SSD shortage, but Linux support is so much better.
  - cassepipe 7mo ago
    Funny you should say that since my framework intel 12th gen just started dropping wifi/bluetooth randomly and one cpu starts looking for it frantically in a loop almost bringing the laptop to a crawl (it's very likely a hardware issue and not a linux issue)
    - SXX 7mo ago
      Not saying Framework is perfect, but I daily drive Asahi on Mac and its just rough all very over. Dont get me wrong - Asahi is great undertaking and impressive work. Its just idea of buying hardware specifically to drive it is not rational. There is a lot of hardware with more compkete and stable Linux support.
      - cassepipe 7mo ago
        Good to know as I have long hesitated to get my hand on refurbished M1 before opting for the framework. On the good side I was able to replace a bent frame and a broken display for a reasonable price instead of having a useless sitting duck/wondering how to use a broken laptop
benbayard 7mo ago
Many newer Windows laptops are now having their ability to update ram and storage removed as well. I believe the newest intel architecture introduced this, but my information might be out of date.
- my123 7mo ago
  LPCAMM2 is more present on business/high end machines unfortunately. It's not an Intel restriction.
  - vbezhenar 7mo ago
    There are Intel CPUs which come with bundled RAM. For example Intel Core Ultra 5 238V. It's like SoM: RAM is mounted directly on the CPU package, not even soldered on the motherboard. I'm not sure what particular advantages does that bring over traditional packaging, maybe shorter wires to allow for faster turnarounds between CPU and RAM. But there's zero chance of upgrading or replacing RAM for sure.
    - jurgenburgen 7mo ago
      > I'm not sure what particular advantages does that bring over traditional packaging Massive increase in bandwidth, which is useful for e.g. running local LLMs.
      - adrian_b 7mo ago
        In theory, but that is not the case with Lunar Lake, which nowadays does not have a greater bandwidth than the current CPUs with external LPDDR memory. However, at launch, a year and a half ago, it had a bandwidth about 15% higher than competing CPUs. For a really "massive increase in bandwidth", it would have needed a wider memory interface, like AMD Ryzen Max, which has a 256-bit memory interface, instead of the 128-bit memory interface of most Intel/AMD laptop CPUs.
  - benbayard 7mo ago
    Yes, totally. By introduced I didn't mean they were the first in the space but rather they have introduced it to the laptops they're shipping now. But yes, it's been a thing for awhile on other architectures as well.
3abiton 7mo ago
I totally get it. I have the M4 Air, grabbed it for 700$ on sale. I also have a MSI Creator with Linux (wayland). Performance wise the base Air crunches through everything up until lots of things are open and gpu is roaring (encoding or streaming), and with colima, I have few incus linux containers up and running. Battery life is formidable. Nothing comes close. My linux laptop (32GB ram / beefy gpu) barely withstand 40 min on battery, but can handle very daunting tasks, and obviously gaming. These are 2 different use cases, but right now, for the ultra portable laptop, Air is the king, until x64 brings back the efficiency per watt. Even qcom can't compete. That being said, I am a big fan of the apple hardware and not the apple software, so whenever Asahi linux is ready enough (with good battery life), I am definitely jumping ship.
- zdragnar 7mo ago
  That beefy GPU is the killer for battery life. There's quite a few PC laptops floating about that get in the 10-16 hour range battery life on lighter workloads (text editors, fast compilers, streaming video, browsing internet). I'm typing this on one right now. I wish it was running linux, but I need windows for work up until we get the last of our antiquated .net platform on core. Sure, it's got integrated graphics so it won't win any gaming awards, but that's what the laptop with the beefy GPU sitting in the corner is for :) That thing pumps out enough heat to not be too pleasant sitting on a lap anyway.
  - clouedoc 7mo ago
    Exactly. Big GPUs are the #1 reason battery doesn’t last on Linux laptops. Power management is not done well with the GPU drivers in Linux. If they are not used, they still draw a lot of power, while that’s not really the case on Windows, from what I heard. I think the best is to get a good Linux laptop, but with an integrated GPU. If you really want to do anything beefy, you can always use an eGPU :)! Obviously this will never come close in terms of convenience as having an actual M series MacBook… Wishing you best of luck for the .net migration!
fatata123 7mo ago
[dead]
fiedzia 7mo ago
> Being able to upgrade/repair RAM Most upcoming laptops now have soldered RAM and soldered wifi becomes common too.
- mikae1 7mo ago
  At least you have the choice to pick one that does not.
- adrian_b 7mo ago
  Soldered RAM is not necessarily bad, because it is usually more reliable than SODIMMs, so it is less likely to require replacements before other parts fail and it is less likely to suffer from transient hardware errors that are not caught due to the lack of ECC memory in most laptops and mini-PCs. However I consider soldered SSDs and/or soldered batteries as completely unacceptable, as they limit the lifetime of a computer to low values.
IshKebab 7mo ago
Honestly for the price you'd have to pay to get an equivalent Windows laptop you can buy two Macbook Airs. I think Apple's higher end machines are overpriced but their entry level laptops are a bargain, for what you get. Unless you need Linux (and the resulting bugginess/short battery life), it's really a no-brainer. (Don't tell my Linux isn't buggy. I use it, but I regularly run into nonsense like this: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=512297 https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=512297 that doesn't happen on Windows or Mac. I still haven't figured out why VSCode freezes for half a second every few minutes on Linux.)

by mikae1 7mo ago

jruz 7mo ago

Not on the latest but I’m happily running Asahi NixOS

mikae1 7mo ago
Even for the M1 generation feature support is not complete. Also, this a thread about current models. Asahi is still awesome though!
- dangus 7mo ago
  And if you are comparing against an M1 or M2 you can find numerous PC laptops that will beat that out in performance and still have a quiet/cool/long battery life operation. Yes, the MacBook Air is unique-ish for having no fan at all, but a slow running fan that you can barely hear is going to get you more performance with basically zero added cost or compromise. And for those users who don’t need top performance and just need an affordable office app machine, I’d argue that Snapdragon laptops have the same primary benefits as the MacBook Air. In terms of competition against x86, Apple is only ahead of competition in their latest two or so generations and only in specific ways. Want to play games sometimes like 936 million other PC gamers in the world? (The fastest growing segment of people who buy computers) You’ll pay a lot less for an Omen Transcend 14 than a MacBook Pro at the same specs and you’ll get a system with a very similar noise and battery life profile, along with far Better graphics performance. I don’t personally think Windows is so bad compared to Mac in terms of annoyances. Mac nags you about all of Apple’s subscription services and you can’t even uninstall their apps like News and Stocks. Microsoft lets you uninstall everything including Notepad. It’s really not that annoying after about 5 minutes changing settings and uninstalling some things. If we are talking about buying a used Mac we are also talking about buying a computer that will lose software support before the Windows equivalent historically. E.g., you buy an M2 MacBook Air and you’ve got about 7 years left or less before you lose major OS versions. Almost guarantee you that won’t be the case with any reasonably recent Windows PC that supports 11 today. My
  - MoonWalk 7mo ago
    Not true. Mac OS does not nag you about subscription services. What are you talking about? Windows is offensive, insufferable trash. From its CONTINUAL hounding about "your Microsoft account" to its bug-riddled, regressive, and shambolic UI. Things Windows users took for granted 40 years ago are simply gone. Example: Select three PNGs in Explorer and right-click on them, and look for "Open with..."
    - dangus 7mo ago
      Literally the moment you buy a Mac. Apple hardware comes with 3 month trials of various subscriptions, and you get a notification about it. They try to get you to sign up in hopes you’ll forget to cancel. When I bought my iPhone 17 the sales associate even tried to pitch signing up for the trial in person as he guided me through the purchase process. When you cancel the trial it ends it immediately instead of ending it at the end of your trial period, a dark pattern designed to encourage you to forget to end your trial. Apple devices also nag you about buying AppleCare in the system preferences. I’ve never been hounded about my Microsoft account. Be specific. When does this happen? Yes, you need one to set up Windows 11 (just like a Mac and especially iOS are basically useless without an Apple account anyway), but after that I’ve never been hounded around anything related to it. Never had problems figuring out how to open stuff in Windows. No idea what you’re saying. Most of these extreme claims about Windows seem to come from people who don’t even use the OS regularly and have forgotten about the ways in which macOS does many of the same commercial OS practices.
      - sitharus 7mo ago
        Every time my Windows gaming PC updates it nags me about setting up backups to OneDrive. I cannot install Windows without a Microsoft account unless I apply work-arounds. It constantly offers Office 365, even adding dummy icons to the start menu. There are adverts on the login screen. To be fair I installed Bazzite there, but for a laptop I cannot find an equivalent device at the same price point even ignoring the need for linux drivers.
SXX 7mo ago
On M1 there are still issues with wifi not recovering after sleep and for me its just disappear sometimes. Something like Framework is more expensive thanks to RAM abd SSD shortage, but Linux support is so much better.
- cassepipe 7mo ago
  Funny you should say that since my framework intel 12th gen just started dropping wifi/bluetooth randomly and one cpu starts looking for it frantically in a loop almost bringing the laptop to a crawl (it's very likely a hardware issue and not a linux issue)
  - SXX 7mo ago
    Not saying Framework is perfect, but I daily drive Asahi on Mac and its just rough all very over. Dont get me wrong - Asahi is great undertaking and impressive work. Its just idea of buying hardware specifically to drive it is not rational. There is a lot of hardware with more compkete and stable Linux support.
    - cassepipe 7mo ago
      Good to know as I have long hesitated to get my hand on refurbished M1 before opting for the framework. On the good side I was able to replace a bent frame and a broken display for a reasonable price instead of having a useless sitting duck/wondering how to use a broken laptop

benbayard 7mo ago

Many newer Windows laptops are now having their ability to update ram and storage removed as well. I believe the newest intel architecture introduced this, but my information might be out of date.

my123 7mo ago
LPCAMM2 is more present on business/high end machines unfortunately. It's not an Intel restriction.
- vbezhenar 7mo ago
  There are Intel CPUs which come with bundled RAM. For example Intel Core Ultra 5 238V. It's like SoM: RAM is mounted directly on the CPU package, not even soldered on the motherboard. I'm not sure what particular advantages does that bring over traditional packaging, maybe shorter wires to allow for faster turnarounds between CPU and RAM. But there's zero chance of upgrading or replacing RAM for sure.
  - jurgenburgen 7mo ago
    > I'm not sure what particular advantages does that bring over traditional packaging Massive increase in bandwidth, which is useful for e.g. running local LLMs.
    - adrian_b 7mo ago
      In theory, but that is not the case with Lunar Lake, which nowadays does not have a greater bandwidth than the current CPUs with external LPDDR memory. However, at launch, a year and a half ago, it had a bandwidth about 15% higher than competing CPUs. For a really "massive increase in bandwidth", it would have needed a wider memory interface, like AMD Ryzen Max, which has a 256-bit memory interface, instead of the 128-bit memory interface of most Intel/AMD laptop CPUs.
- benbayard 7mo ago
  Yes, totally. By introduced I didn't mean they were the first in the space but rather they have introduced it to the laptops they're shipping now. But yes, it's been a thing for awhile on other architectures as well.

3abiton 7mo ago

I totally get it. I have the M4 Air, grabbed it for 700$ on sale. I also have a MSI Creator with Linux (wayland). Performance wise the base Air crunches through everything up until lots of things are open and gpu is roaring (encoding or streaming), and with colima, I have few incus linux containers up and running. Battery life is formidable. Nothing comes close. My linux laptop (32GB ram / beefy gpu) barely withstand 40 min on battery, but can handle very daunting tasks, and obviously gaming. These are 2 different use cases, but right now, for the ultra portable laptop, Air is the king, until x64 brings back the efficiency per watt. Even qcom can't compete. That being said, I am a big fan of the apple hardware and not the apple software, so whenever Asahi linux is ready enough (with good battery life), I am definitely jumping ship.

zdragnar 7mo ago
That beefy GPU is the killer for battery life. There's quite a few PC laptops floating about that get in the 10-16 hour range battery life on lighter workloads (text editors, fast compilers, streaming video, browsing internet). I'm typing this on one right now. I wish it was running linux, but I need windows for work up until we get the last of our antiquated .net platform on core. Sure, it's got integrated graphics so it won't win any gaming awards, but that's what the laptop with the beefy GPU sitting in the corner is for :) That thing pumps out enough heat to not be too pleasant sitting on a lap anyway.
- clouedoc 7mo ago
  Exactly. Big GPUs are the #1 reason battery doesn’t last on Linux laptops. Power management is not done well with the GPU drivers in Linux. If they are not used, they still draw a lot of power, while that’s not really the case on Windows, from what I heard. I think the best is to get a good Linux laptop, but with an integrated GPU. If you really want to do anything beefy, you can always use an eGPU :)! Obviously this will never come close in terms of convenience as having an actual M series MacBook… Wishing you best of luck for the .net migration!

fatata123 7mo ago

[dead]

fiedzia 7mo ago

> Being able to upgrade/repair RAM Most upcoming laptops now have soldered RAM and soldered wifi becomes common too.

mikae1 7mo ago
At least you have the choice to pick one that does not.
adrian_b 7mo ago
Soldered RAM is not necessarily bad, because it is usually more reliable than SODIMMs, so it is less likely to require replacements before other parts fail and it is less likely to suffer from transient hardware errors that are not caught due to the lack of ECC memory in most laptops and mini-PCs. However I consider soldered SSDs and/or soldered batteries as completely unacceptable, as they limit the lifetime of a computer to low values.

IshKebab 7mo ago

Honestly for the price you'd have to pay to get an equivalent Windows laptop you can buy two Macbook Airs. I think Apple's higher end machines are overpriced but their entry level laptops are a bargain, for what you get. Unless you need Linux (and the resulting bugginess/short battery life), it's really a no-brainer. (Don't tell my Linux isn't buggy. I use it, but I regularly run into nonsense like this: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=512297 https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=512297 that doesn't happen on Windows or Mac. I still haven't figured out why VSCode freezes for half a second every few minutes on Linux.)