4 ms·

They matter within a company for the reasons you cite. They mostly don't matter between companies however.

by jghn 8mo ago

jjfoooo4 8mo ago
Why do you think that? Senior, staff, principle levels are pretty standard across the industry, even if some companies call them different things
- crystal_revenge 8mo ago
  I'm guessing you've only worked at very large companies, specifically tech companies then? I've worked at pretty much every size company imaginable.As the top post pointed out, these titles are meaningless across smaller companies. I've been at startups where nobody had titles at all, I've small companies where anyone remotely senior as a principal. I've also worked at large non-tech companies with only 3 levels for IC, after that you were expected to transition to management. Large, tech companies have some degree they can be compared but what these titles mean from company to company is pretty meaningless.
- raw_anon_1111 8mo ago
  This is definitely not true. It’s all dependent on the company size. I work in cloud consulting (specialize in app dev). I worked at AWS ProServe (full blue badge RSU earning employee) before working for a much smaller company. I’ve seen the leveling guidelines for both. An L5 (mid level) at AWS had to be a subject matter expert in at least one area (development, DevOps, security, etc) and be able to lead a “workstream” of a larger project including dealing with a customer or a smaller project by themselves. That maps to a “Senior Architect” at my current company. A senior (L6) at AWS should be able to handle larger projects with multiple workstreams and deal with more ambiguity. That maps to a staff at my current company (current position) An L7 is usually over a practice and/or handling multiple large implementations and more involved with strategy. Imagine someone (who hypothetically - they don’t need outside consultants) was working with Netflix. That maps to a “Senior Staff” at our company. You might ask what about lower levels in consulting? I never work with them. The bilingual cloud architects/senior cloud architects work with them. We don’t hire anything lower than that in the US.
- jghn 8mo ago
  They're somewhat standardized in Big Tech in that people have worked out how to map titles across these companies. But that accounts for a very small fraction of the total industry.
adamwk 8mo ago
You don’t think companies look at your past titles when you apply for a job?
- jghn 8mo ago
  They may, but the amount of information they're getting is low. As a hiring manager I'll look at progression of titles *within a company*. This shows a track record of upward mobility. But if they go from "senior" in one company to "principal" in another, I find it meaningless.
  - rvz 8mo ago
    > As a hiring manager I'll look at progression of titles within a company. This shows a track record of upward mobility. That's quite shallow for those who are 'Member of Technical Staff' which does not have this which is why titles are meaningless for experienced candidates. Someone can give themselves that title, all because they know the founders; thus it can be exploited. So instead, I get the candidate to exactly explain to me what did they actually build / do and how much money did they make / save the organization and it must be in the millions to qualify or did they build side-projects that contributed to this or not. In this era, "titles" aren't enough and you need verifiable proof of work with monetary returns in the millions and I favour those who just build things that make money without asking permission from a manager.
    - disgruntledphd2 8mo ago
      > In this era, "titles" aren't enough and you need verifiable proof of work with monetary returns in the millions and I favour those who just build things that make money without asking permission from a manager. While I like this approach personally, it's worth noting that lots of companies will fire people like you say you want, particularly if their manager is threatened by them (or they're difficult to work with etc).
- Magmalgebra 8mo ago
  The title only so matters to the extent the company is a known entity. The "staff engineer" at some random series B startup 4 years into their career nearly always gets hired in at mid level somewhere like Meta.
LgWoodenBadger 8mo ago
Titles are what “salary comparisons” go by when HR “compares” compensation between employees and “competition.” What else would they be able to use?
- nitwit005 8mo ago
  I was promoted to senior software engineer three times in my early career. They just tossed out the title as a freebee more-or-less, and the hiring companies told me I was too young/inexperienced for it. There seems to be an understanding that happens, which means they ignore it.
- jghn 8mo ago
  > What else would they be able to use? I tell them what my range is. If they don't want to meet my range, then I tell them to GTFO. Isn't that what everyone does?

They matter within a company for the reasons you cite. They mostly don't matter between companies however.

by jghn 8mo ago

They matter within a company for the reasons you cite. They mostly don't matter between companies however.

Why do you think that? Senior, staff, principle levels are pretty standard across the industry, even if some companies call them different things

crystal_revenge 8mo ago
I'm guessing you've only worked at very large companies, specifically tech companies then? I've worked at pretty much every size company imaginable.As the top post pointed out, these titles are meaningless across smaller companies. I've been at startups where nobody had titles at all, I've small companies where anyone remotely senior as a principal. I've also worked at large non-tech companies with only 3 levels for IC, after that you were expected to transition to management. Large, tech companies have some degree they can be compared but what these titles mean from company to company is pretty meaningless.
raw_anon_1111 8mo ago
This is definitely not true. It’s all dependent on the company size. I work in cloud consulting (specialize in app dev). I worked at AWS ProServe (full blue badge RSU earning employee) before working for a much smaller company. I’ve seen the leveling guidelines for both. An L5 (mid level) at AWS had to be a subject matter expert in at least one area (development, DevOps, security, etc) and be able to lead a “workstream” of a larger project including dealing with a customer or a smaller project by themselves. That maps to a “Senior Architect” at my current company. A senior (L6) at AWS should be able to handle larger projects with multiple workstreams and deal with more ambiguity. That maps to a staff at my current company (current position) An L7 is usually over a practice and/or handling multiple large implementations and more involved with strategy. Imagine someone (who hypothetically - they don’t need outside consultants) was working with Netflix. That maps to a “Senior Staff” at our company. You might ask what about lower levels in consulting? I never work with them. The bilingual cloud architects/senior cloud architects work with them. We don’t hire anything lower than that in the US.
jghn 8mo ago
They're somewhat standardized in Big Tech in that people have worked out how to map titles across these companies. But that accounts for a very small fraction of the total industry.

adamwk 8mo ago

You don’t think companies look at your past titles when you apply for a job?

jghn 8mo ago
They may, but the amount of information they're getting is low. As a hiring manager I'll look at progression of titles *within a company*. This shows a track record of upward mobility. But if they go from "senior" in one company to "principal" in another, I find it meaningless.
- rvz 8mo ago
  > As a hiring manager I'll look at progression of titles within a company. This shows a track record of upward mobility. That's quite shallow for those who are 'Member of Technical Staff' which does not have this which is why titles are meaningless for experienced candidates. Someone can give themselves that title, all because they know the founders; thus it can be exploited. So instead, I get the candidate to exactly explain to me what did they actually build / do and how much money did they make / save the organization and it must be in the millions to qualify or did they build side-projects that contributed to this or not. In this era, "titles" aren't enough and you need verifiable proof of work with monetary returns in the millions and I favour those who just build things that make money without asking permission from a manager.
  - disgruntledphd2 8mo ago
    > In this era, "titles" aren't enough and you need verifiable proof of work with monetary returns in the millions and I favour those who just build things that make money without asking permission from a manager. While I like this approach personally, it's worth noting that lots of companies will fire people like you say you want, particularly if their manager is threatened by them (or they're difficult to work with etc).
Magmalgebra 8mo ago
The title only so matters to the extent the company is a known entity. The "staff engineer" at some random series B startup 4 years into their career nearly always gets hired in at mid level somewhere like Meta.

LgWoodenBadger 8mo ago

Titles are what “salary comparisons” go by when HR “compares” compensation between employees and “competition.” What else would they be able to use?

nitwit005 8mo ago
I was promoted to senior software engineer three times in my early career. They just tossed out the title as a freebee more-or-less, and the hiring companies told me I was too young/inexperienced for it. There seems to be an understanding that happens, which means they ignore it.
jghn 8mo ago
> What else would they be able to use? I tell them what my range is. If they don't want to meet my range, then I tell them to GTFO. Isn't that what everyone does?