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Sort of a hijack, but it rides on the awesomeness that e-bikes can bring about. They truly are incredible if you have never gotten to ride one. E-bikes with th

Sort of a hijack, but it rides on the awesomeness that e-bikes can bring about. They truly are incredible if you have never gotten to ride one. E-bikes with throttles should not be refereed to as e-bikes E-peds, e-motos, electric motorycle, whatever. Just don't call them ebikes. The problem is people (especially kids) getting what are essentially electric motorcycles, thinking they are ebikes, and then causing all sorts of chaos on roads and bike paths. This inevitably leads to the public hating "e-bikes" and the government passing totally confused laws about "e-bikes". This also leads to kids getting killed because mom and dad bought them an "e-bike" and let them loose on the roads with it. Pedal assist ebikes are incredible, and really just turn weak cyclists into strong cyclists, while still providing exercise. It's a revolution for society, but we have to be careful to not totally fumble it with electric motorcycle death machines.

Aurornis 8mo ago
I agree. I thought the electric motorcycle problem was overstated by people complaining online at first. Then they became popular around my house and I agree it’s a huge problem. I’m fortunate enough to live around a lot of walking and mixed use trails for bikes and pedestrians. Recently they’re unsafe to use in the evenings because you have to be ready to jump out of the way of groups of kids (plus a few adults who should know better) going 45mph on electric bikes with throttles. They don’t even pretend to be e-bikes any more. The big problem is that there is zero enforcement. If there was at least a chance that someone breaking these laws could lose their bike or have to pay thousands of dollars in fines I think we’d see a lot less of it. Right now everyone knows that they’re not going to get caught, so it’s a free for all.
- euroderf 8mo ago
  Try speed bumps ?
- deleted 8mo ago
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- estebank 8mo ago
  I believe this to be growing pains. Legislation hasn't yet fully adapted, some of the legislation I've seen makes the mistake of conflaing these, and enforcement is nonexistent in most places. I suspect that as time passes, we'll find ways of allowing ebikes to flourish. Around me the biggest thing I've seen is parents on cargo bikes taking their kids, and that's a demographic that elected officials tend to listen to.
  - Aurornis 8mo ago
    We have the laws. What they’re doing is illegal. I think they need a higher tier of penalties for the repeat offenders, but that would require anyone getting caught first. It’s an enforcement problem. The riders know they’re riding where police cars can’t get them. They also know that the bike cops aren’t allowed to ride ultra powerful electric motorcycles. They also know they can just drive off across some grass into a park if anyone tries to stop them. It’s a hard problem. > I suspect that as time passes, we'll find ways of allowing ebikes to flourish. Electric bikes are flourishing here. Electric motorcycles on bike paths are the problem. I think the electric term is confusing the issue. If it helps, imagine that these were just really quiet but powerful gas powered dirt bikes riding on the pedestrian path. That should give you an idea of what’s going on.
    - estebank 8mo ago
      I know what you're talking about, but a lot of people are conflating them. In some cases it is legislators like a recent attempt to require ebikes have to register and have a drivers' license for them. In others it's parents not realizing that they got their kids an electric dirt bike instead of an ebike. Of course, you do have the antisocial element of people not caring and actually seeking out these, but we need to separate the different problems to address them, as you are doing.
      - Aurornis 8mo ago
        > In some cases it is legislators like a recent attempt to require ebikes have to register and have a drivers' license for them. Has any legislation been passed or was this only a proposal? Crazy legislation gets proposed all the time with no possibility of passing. Some times no intent of passing, either.
- deleted 8mo ago
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- wintermutestwin 8mo ago
  The problem is the rider not the bike.
  - 2muchcoffeeman 8mo ago
    Easy for you to say. I’ve almost hit a couple stupid kids on an e-bikes with throttles riding on suburban roads at night with no lights. And I’m seeing more and more fuckwits ride fast on side walks and accelerate to jump of the sidewalk and into traffic. Almost hitting unsuspecting people on the sidewalk. Community needs to police itself. Otherwise it’s just going to be waiting for a critical mass of deaths.
    - skeeter2020 8mo ago
      >> a couple stupid kids on an e-bikes with throttles I'm going to respond every time I see this: not ebikes; these are electronic motorcycles. And this is from someone who thinks ebike are pretty stupid; justified for old and disabled people but only ever seen ridden by fat dentists.
- majormajor 8mo ago
  why is the throttle the issue and not just the 45MPH? would it be better with pedals and people peddling along in some only-would-ever-make-sense-on-an-ebike gear, but still going 45? the problem is recklessnesss and speed, restrict and enforce those things, don't just let the bike makers shift the product 10% and re-create exactly the same issue, but "legally"
  - Aurornis 8mo ago
    > why is the throttle the issue and not just the 45MPH? The bikes with throttles are not legally e-bikes, so the products on the market ignore all of the other e-bike restrictions too. They have much more power and higher top speeds. Even if they were fully limited, pedaling ensure more rider engagement and changes how people ride them. When you have to put some effort, however small, into moving the bike around you ride differently than if it's an effortless throttle input.
    - deleted 8mo ago
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    - Manuel_D 8mo ago
      There are plenty of ebikes with throttles that have less power than ebikes without throttles. E.g. a lectric xpress 500 has 500 watts, there are some pedal assist only bikes with 750 or more watts. It's power and speed that matters, as you point out, so make regulation built on that. Heck, arguably pedal assist is a throttle, it's just a different mechanism vs a twist handle.
- SoftTalker 8mo ago
  Cyclists on track bikes going 30+ mph on mixed use trails are almost as bad. You either ride responsibly or you're a selfish asshole. The vehicle doesn't matter as much.
  - yourusername 8mo ago
    Over here track bikes are not road legal and people who can legit hit 30 mph for any amount of time is maybe 1/1000. Any 12 year old kid that can convince their parents to buy them a $1000 Chinese e-bike can hit 30mph with no effort. In no way are sports cyclists as bad a problem.
c0balt 8mo ago
> Pedal assist ebikes are incredible, and really just turn weak cyclists into strong cyclists The more useful case ime is turning cyclists with reduced mobility into regular cyclists. In particular quite a few elderly people seem to have picked it up in my city, they aren't quite strong riders but definitely seem able of adapting to normal traffic. It also seems like a significantly safer option for individual transport than cars (especially in regards to the other traffic participants).
- tokai 8mo ago
  You just repeated W²s point.
- mikestew 8mo ago
  The more useful case ime is turning cyclists with reduced mobility into regular cyclists. You mean, turn weak cyclists into strong cyclists, like GP said? :-)
  - KennyBlanken 8mo ago
    No. Reduced mobility doesn't mean "weak." It means reduced mobility. It's right there in the words. People who cannot pedal much at all, even the motion, no matter how light it is. Joint issues / surgery, deformities, etc. Don't be smarmy.
    - Filligree 8mo ago
      If you can't pedal at all, then an e-bike definitionally won't help you. An e-moped might be suitable.
- brianwawok 8mo ago
  Elderly on a basically unlicensed motorcycle is a good recipe for injury. Pretty sure the stats look bad for this group especially
- jacquesm 8mo ago
  > The more useful case ime is turning cyclists with reduced mobility into regular cyclists. That's exactly my use case. I've got a bad leg and this thing made all the difference for longer rides.
michaelt 8mo ago
To me, that sounds like a task for your country’s lawmakers, rather than “Just don't call them ebikes” Motorbikes need training, a license, insurance, registration, a minimum age, etc - and you’re competing with small petrol motorcycles which are cheap new, and plentiful on the used market. E-bike makers aren’t going to volunteer for that - it’d destroy their business.
- deleted 8mo ago
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- occz 8mo ago
  >E-bike makers aren't going to volunteer for that it'd destroy their business. Arguably, complete bans will be even worse for business.
- WarmWash 8mo ago
  New Jersey just passed some of the most onerous and short sighted ebike laws in the world last month. Basically anything that has two wheels and a non-human energy source drive is now a motorcycle, requiring a license, registration (including a license plate), insurance, and a DOT approved motorcycle helmet, as well as This law came on the back of two teens being killed on ebikes last year. This is the exact kind of idiotic knee-jerk legislation that will come from the public and governments general ignorance on the state of electric tandem wheel transportation. So now in New Jersey, Betsy with her class 1 250W pedal assist ebike must get her license and don her motorcycle helmet while only riding on roads with her insured, registered, and license plated 15 mph bicycle. Lawmakers aren't going to do their homework, they will just kneejerk appease the general public.
  - parineum 8mo ago
    This is what happens when ebike companies take every opportunity to skirt the laws like putting easily removable limiters on motorcycles with pedals and a chain with a gear ratio that makes pedalling practically impossible. I don't know if there was an existing attempt at regulation in NJ specifically but that's happening all around the country. The problem is that, while ebikes have a ton of really good use cases, the big market for them is basically kids who want to drive a motorcycle before they're allowed. Ebike companies are going to try to sell to that market any way they can.
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captainmuon 8mo ago
I don't understand that point. Why do e-bikes become better or more safe when you have to rotate your legs? Its really frustrating and silly that I have to go through the motions (literally) of riding a bicycle if I want to get the priviledge of using a bike lane or going without a license plate. (At least that's the case here in Germany AFAIK). They could go ahead and make "fast electric bikes" and "slow electric bikes" or something as categories and that would make sense - but hinging the decision on whether your legs or your wrist is turning is illogical. I think it is actually morally charged - like you have to put in the work if you want the privilege.
- tokai 8mo ago
  Its easy, the accelerations are completely different and very hard to gauge. Also you have the elderly going speeds that does not mach their reactions, while also being unaware of how fast they are going. If you try biking with them it become very obvious how many dangerous situations they cause compared to true e-bike and normal bikes.
  - Gigachad 8mo ago
    Pedal assist feels like amplifying your natural power. The boost it gives is perfectly matched with your own movements so it feels more like you are just super fit. And there is far less chance you can just slip and apply too much power unlike throttle controlled.
  - jiri 8mo ago
    In my area, I think that non electric bikes are often more dangerous: they are often non tolerant of others and hesitant to slow down because of speed conservation. Especially in our hilly town. Easy "free" acceleration is plus here.
- WarmWash 8mo ago
  Don't let perfect be the enemy of good. We can focus on clamping down of "faux pedal ebikes" when the time comes, but for now it looks like we'll be throwing out everything to just to stop teenagers on surrons.
conductr 8mo ago
As an alternative mode of transportation, that could/should replace car usage for many people, I think we need to separate the two completely as well. The throttle version needs to be regulated more like a motorcycle or moped. This would take it out of the hands of most kids and cause license suspension worries for young adults and other reckless users. I agree they are essentially death machines and governments generally have no sane approach to regulating them. That said, I think the e-moto versions have more potential towards alleviating traffic or being an alternative mode of transportation as most people don’t want to peddle at all. E-bikes are great, but I don’t think it’s reasonable to assume that would ever be on the average Joe’s list of feasible alternatives.
- SoftTalker 8mo ago
  > most people don’t want to peddle at all. Most people don't want a two-wheeler, period. Otherwise everyone would be riding motorcycles. People want a vehicle that will keep them dry, comfortable, and safe. Two-wheelers of all types fail at all of those things.
  - oblio 8mo ago
    Plenty of people will ride two wheelers if the infrastructure is good. Most places in the world just have crap infrastructure for using bicycles safely and calmly.
    - conductr 8mo ago
      I tend to agree more with GP, at least in the western world. People I know and pretty certain a huge percentage of the US start their day getting dolled up. Hair, makeup, clothes, etc each and every day. Even without the physical excursions of peddling, people don’t want to be exposed to the dirty outside air and especially dealing with the elements. The want to move from one climate controlled setting to another including their transportation system. The Netherlands where biking is common has a completely different norm for style, dress, fashion and even hygiene because they’ve become so used to biking. The rest of the western world has some work to do in those areas or some realities to face if they ever wanted to actually get on board with bicycling as transportation.
Aerroon 8mo ago
I wouldn't want an e-bike precisely because I can't trust my government not to introduce some new legislation with onerous rules or extra costs. Maybe if they were cheap, but since they cost an arm and a leg there's no reason to get them.
- jandrese 8mo ago
  You can get a perfectly workable brand new E-Bike for about $1,000 in the US. While that isn’t cheap as chips it’s also not a major investment for middle class individuals.
  - avhon1 8mo ago
    The cost wouldn't necessarily be in the bike, but in requirements for mandatory paid registration, licensing classes, insurance, inspection, and safety equipment.
    - lostlogin 8mo ago
      Saving fuel and parking cost adds up fairly quickly if you have a sensible setup. However as a cycle commuters I’m not sure it saves much money over driving if done wrong. I’ve got a glorious bike. I chew through parts and consumables at an expensive rate.
unethical_ban 8mo ago
I think e-motos should be as lightly regulated as possible. The regulations on bike paths should be speed, not pedal vs. non-pedal. And since "bikes" aren't regulated but "mopeds" are, you see people avoiding government BS by shipping e-bikes that have "off-road" mode that enables no-pedal throttles.
thrill 8mo ago
“E-bikes with throttles should not be refereed to as e-bikes” This is simply wrong and does a disservice to the growing eBike interest. The US-federally defined classes are proper and while IMO overly limiting (max speed should be 60kph and still classified as an eBike as it’s simply safer in traffic), they adequately classify what is an eBike and what is not, and having a throttle does not make something not an eBike, but max speed and power. People have this urge to classify their limited version of what something is by how they use it with some desire to belittle others, and want to limit everyone else who have completely different requirements and capabilities and desires. eBikes in most US states can be ridden on sidewalks, in bike lanes, in traffic, on trails, and across a grassy meadow. There is no justifiable reason to require someone to have different eBikes to be able to do all those things with comfort and safety and capability and utility when a well engineered eBike can do all of them. That they might be safer with circumstantially restricted speeds, such as overtaking pedestrians, etc. again does mean multiple eBikes should be mandated to be able to do each of them. In the US, hopefully the next administration will buy a vowel and realize they need to set federal standards and eliminate this hodgepodge state and county and city and park and street and neighborhood capricious variety of who can ride what when and where, and with what gear and at what times and for what reasons. If decisions are made that no one under 13 can ride an eBike, and then only to school until you’re 16, and you must wear a helmet until at least 19, then at least there will be consistent rules for people to argue for and against.
- pluralmonad 8mo ago
  Why do you think it is bad for communities to set their own standards?
  - thrill 8mo ago
    Because if a eBike meets already well defined federal class specifications it is considered a eBike, and not a motor vehicle, and other than setting reasonable speed limits in high foot-traffic areas, local regulations do nothing but complicate life.
- bootlooped 8mo ago
s0rce 8mo ago
I really like a low speed throttle, like 3-5mph max is fine. 20mph is too fast and results in ebikes basically designed a motorcycles that cannot be pedaled. The throttle is so nice to have to get started quickly like turning left at a light, if you didn't have time to downshift before stopping, on a hill, or if the bike is heavily loaded with stuff. Its also nice to be able to use to slowly move between cars with your feet off the pedals to keep balance if needed.
- deleted 8mo ago
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- pbmonster 8mo ago
  Those are legal, at least in the EU. It's called "push support" or "walk assist", my bike engages it when I long-press the down button. It's purpose is to help you push the heavy e-bike up ramps and hills, but I mainly use it as a throttle when I ride behind my toddler on his balance bike. It's closer to 3mph than 5mph, and as such needs some slow-riding skills, but it works.
  - s0rce 8mo ago
    One of my bikes without a thumb throttle has this but there is a bit of delay from the long-press required which I don't like compared to the basically instant response of the thumb throttle. It also requires a bit for attention to press the small button vs the throttle you can keep your eyes on the road.
wintermutestwin 8mo ago
As an oldster who used to do weekly century rides and lost that ability due to nerve damage in my foot (thanks to decades of wearing pointy Italian riding shoes), I’d love it if we could focus on simply enforcing laws that exist rather than saddling arbitrary blanket regulations on lawful citizens. I built an ebike and hell yes I put a throttle on it because it enables me to ride more technical trails. This bike has dramatically increased my quality of life. Please leave me alone and if someone uses a throttle bike in an illegal manner give them a ticket.
- socalgal2 8mo ago
  I'm sypathetic but ... unlike cars, bikes don't have large each to read license plates. People will scream about facial recognition. I'm not trying to take away your freedom. I've just wished they'd enforce traffic laws on cyclists but it's just not going to happen and cyclists know it so they almost all break traffic laws with impunity.
  - Tostino 8mo ago
    You know who generally stops at a stop sign or stoplight? People on an e-bike, compared to people riding for sport or commuting on road bikes. It's not a big deal to stop and get started again when you have a motor. It's a pain in the ass when you're trying to make it to work on time with your legs. Why is having a license plate even relevant here? Most traffic enforcement is done when an officer sees something happen.
    - freeopinion 8mo ago
      How else will a witness be able to report the get-away bike in a bank robbery?
      - lostlogin 8mo ago
        ‘He’s is on a bike carrying 7 large sacks of cash’.
  - 8mo ago
afavour 8mo ago
I think there are many more factors to it than that. I own a Radwagon, a cargo e-bike and I take my kids to school on it. It’s both pedal assist and has a throttle and maxes out at 20mph. I find the throttle very useful because the bike is pretty damn heavy with two kids on it and moving from a standing stop is much easier when I can give it a quick throttle burst then start pedalling. All that said, I do agree the term is overloaded. The bike lines in NYC often have people riding electric mopeds in them and that feels dangerous. Their max speed is clearly way above 20mph and they’re bulky. They belong on the road with other mopeds. So IMO the definition of ebike should factor in max speed more than it should throttle vs not. (And also, seconding the awesomeness of ebikes. My kids love riding on it and it’s allowed us to take so many trips that would have been difficult otherwise. It’s also allowed us to avoid buying a car, for now at least)
- IshKebab 8mo ago
  The problem with max speed is that while big legit ebike manufacturers respect it (e.g. you can't buy a Bosch ebike in the UK that will go above 15.5mph), you can easily get Chinese models that don't care, or you can mod other bikes that do fairly easily. I don't know what the solution is tbh.
  - jandrese 8mo ago
    Why not just define the law in terms of maximum speed and be fine with it? Why nitpick over control modes? I can guarantee that if I asked 10 random cops what the restrictions are of a Class 2 e-bike not more than 1 could answer, but if I asked them to stop people who were going over 30mph on the bike trail they could figure it out.
    - IshKebab 8mo ago
      I agree the control mode restrictions are dumb. Lime-style ebikes have their assist set so high that you don't need to put any effort at all into pedaling. Effectively the pedals are the throttle. But anyway that's nothing to do with the problem of ebike hooligans. The law is also defined in terms of maximum speed. Anyone going over 15.5mph (without pedaling really hard) is breaking the law. It's not ambiguous when this is happening; it's just impractical for the police to do anything about it.
Qwertious 8mo ago
There's not much difference between a throttle and a sufficiently powerful pedal-assist. Switch to your top gear, and the torque-sensor will say "gee that's a steep hill, let me give you a boost" the moment you start pedalling. Banning throttles just makes manufacturers install token pedals on the motorbikes.
- Gigachad 8mo ago
  In theory maybe, but in reality pedal assist bikes are far more likely to be compliant with speed and power restrictions and designed to feel like a bike. While throttle bikes are almost always sold as dirt bikes for use on private property.
  - jandrese 8mo ago
    When I think of throttle assist in an e-bike my thought is not about dirt bikes but instead the incredibly common low end cadence sensing e-bikes that are hard to get started from a stop.
bjustin 8mo ago
I propose a new and improved e-bike classification scheme: Class A: Bikes that can not go over 10mph via a throttle. And can’t go over 28mph with pedal assist. Or set the pedal assist limit at 20mph if you’re feeling especially conservative. Class B-Class infinity: These aren’t considered bikes. Class A is the only class of e-bike.
- Qwertious 8mo ago
  Fixed for metric: >Class A: Bikes that can not go over 10mph (16km/h) via a throttle. And can’t go over 28mph (45km/h) with pedal assist. Or set the pedal assist limit at 20mph (32km/h) if you’re feeling especially conservative. In Australia, the pedal-assist limit is 25km/h (~15.5mph). And frankly, that's plenty.
  - namibj 8mo ago
    A major problem is there not being a way a city can legally speed limit a road such that it can ticket cars who go faster than what the bikes allow assisted. If you take away their legal reasons for overtaking you while you go as far as the bike let's you and there's nothing ahead of you, you've already massively reduced the amount of dangerous overtaking, and you can aggressively police the remaining overtaking for speeding without having to prove they are overtaking in a dangerous manner.
- rsynnott 8mo ago
  > And can’t go over 28mph with pedal assist. Or set the pedal assist limit at 20mph if you’re feeling especially conservative. That doesn't seem _that_ conservative, honestly. Lots of places have a 20mph/30km/h limit for _cars_ in urban areas.
  - bjustin 8mo ago
    There are plenty of long, straight, flat roads around town here, where riding at 28mph would be perfectly safe. People driving feel free to go 30+mph, after all. My e-bike's assist only goes up to 20mph, which I can sustain even without assist on many of those roads. I'd guess 25mph would be about as fast as I could go with assist while still feeling safe on a bike.
idontwantthis 8mo ago
The throttle isn't a problem, the top speed is. A throttle and pedal assist is nice because you can get started faster and more safely from a stop. Kids riding out of spec motorcycles has always been illegal and always will be. The only problem is that they are a lot cheaper than they used to be.
LoganDark 8mo ago
I have a disability and can't pedal for many minutes or hours straight, but my electric scooter with a throttle is absolutely amazing for helping me get around areas that would otherwise require tons of walking (or pedaling). I guess I'm a demon that needs to be regulated out of existence?
aeternum 8mo ago
A throttle is excellent on an e-bike especially for city riding. It is far easier to move at slow speeds by applying a small amount of throttle vs. trying to torque the pedals just the right amount, if behind someone or near pedestrians. Many e-bikes don't have torque sensors and instead use a cheap rotation sensor so the motor engages almost randomly at certain points in pedal rotation when moving at slow speed.
- pbmonster 8mo ago
  > Many e-bikes don't have torque sensors and instead use a cheap rotation sensor so the motor engages almost randomly at certain points in pedal rotation when moving at slow speed. Today, those are mostly limited to Walmart-tier quality e-bikes. Even the very next step up (still big box store bikes) usually come with torque sensors.
oceanplexian 8mo ago
Have you ever owned a motorcycle or are you making up dramatic terminology to prove a point? The quick e-bikes aren’t motorcycles, not even close. Something in the Sur Ron class (30-40MPH) would be equivalent to a 50cc 2 stroke which you can ride with nothing more than a drivers license. Even then hopped up Talaria’s are a pit bike and don’t remotely approach a low end sports bike. Fast e-bikes aren’t bicycles but they aren’t motorcycles. We already have a term for that, mopeds and scooters. Instead of banning everything the clear solution would be to treat them the same as mopeds (Have to be 18, wear a helmet, may or may not need a license) and call it a day without all the drama.
Manuel_D 8mo ago
Disagree, the wattage of the motor is what's relevant. A 750 watt ebike with pedal assist has more potential to cause harm than a 250 watt "emoto" with a throttle. The whole throttle vs pedal assist distinction makes way less sense than delineating the difference based on power.
- avhon1 8mo ago
  Wattage is basically meaningless. There is nk standard way to measure it. Almost all "250 watt" ebikes consume much more than 250 watts of electricity at full throttle, and can produce much more than 250 watts of mechanical output for seconds or minutes at a time.
  - Manuel_D 8mo ago
    The fact they listed wattage and actual peak wattage is different doesn't change the fact that an e-bike's power, not whether the throttle is connected to the handle bars or the pedal, is what actually creates fast and dangerous bikes. If regulation based on power was drafted, it'd be a simple matter of using a voltmeter and galvanometer to see if a bike is compliant with power limits (arguably motors have different efficiencies, but electric motors are close enough to 100% to use this method).
jacobajit 8mo ago
The distinctions drawn here are particularly interesting in China. Somewhere like Shanghai, you'll see ~70% of traffic in "bike" lanes are what appear to be electric mopeds. But if you look closer, all of these mopeds technically have tiny attachment points for pedals. Government regulations allowed e-bikes to be driven unlicensed (but with a special green license plate, unlike the US!) and wherever bicycles are allowed. At the same time, the delivery industry and commuters wanted something stable, capable of carrying cargo/passengers. So the form factor adopted was that of mopeds, while vestigial pedal attachments were provided in order to pass as "e-bikes" under the regulatory criteria. Example. [0] In practice, using pedals on these made for a clunky experience so they were not usually attached at all. The other main regulatory criterion was that these have to be limited to <= 25 km/h, unlike true mopeds/motorcycles. In practice, these speed limiters were also removed, setting up a cat-and-mouse game between police and riders. The rule requiring the vestigial pedals was finally removed a few months ago, meaning that the ontology of "e-bikes" is pretty different in China now. [1] (Pedal-assist traditional bike frames also exist, but they share space with the larger mopeds in bike lanes and bike parking. True electric mopeds and motorcycles also exist, but they are effectively regulated out of existence in big cities.) At the end of the day, top speeds are more determinant of whether different modes of transportation can coexist than pedals or form factor. [0] https://www.youtube.com/shorts/r4HAUJDQT1w https://www.youtube.com/shorts/r4HAUJDQT1w [1] https://chinamotorworld.com/chinese-e-bike-new-standard/ https://chinamotorworld.com/chinese-e-bike-new-standard/

Aurornis 8mo ago

I agree. I thought the electric motorcycle problem was overstated by people complaining online at first. Then they became popular around my house and I agree it’s a huge problem. I’m fortunate enough to live around a lot of walking and mixed use trails for bikes and pedestrians. Recently they’re unsafe to use in the evenings because you have to be ready to jump out of the way of groups of kids (plus a few adults who should know better) going 45mph on electric bikes with throttles. They don’t even pretend to be e-bikes any more. The big problem is that there is zero enforcement. If there was at least a chance that someone breaking these laws could lose their bike or have to pay thousands of dollars in fines I think we’d see a lot less of it. Right now everyone knows that they’re not going to get caught, so it’s a free for all.

euroderf 8mo ago
Try speed bumps ?
deleted 8mo ago
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estebank 8mo ago
I believe this to be growing pains. Legislation hasn't yet fully adapted, some of the legislation I've seen makes the mistake of conflaing these, and enforcement is nonexistent in most places. I suspect that as time passes, we'll find ways of allowing ebikes to flourish. Around me the biggest thing I've seen is parents on cargo bikes taking their kids, and that's a demographic that elected officials tend to listen to.
- Aurornis 8mo ago
  We have the laws. What they’re doing is illegal. I think they need a higher tier of penalties for the repeat offenders, but that would require anyone getting caught first. It’s an enforcement problem. The riders know they’re riding where police cars can’t get them. They also know that the bike cops aren’t allowed to ride ultra powerful electric motorcycles. They also know they can just drive off across some grass into a park if anyone tries to stop them. It’s a hard problem. > I suspect that as time passes, we'll find ways of allowing ebikes to flourish. Electric bikes are flourishing here. Electric motorcycles on bike paths are the problem. I think the electric term is confusing the issue. If it helps, imagine that these were just really quiet but powerful gas powered dirt bikes riding on the pedestrian path. That should give you an idea of what’s going on.
  - estebank 8mo ago
    I know what you're talking about, but a lot of people are conflating them. In some cases it is legislators like a recent attempt to require ebikes have to register and have a drivers' license for them. In others it's parents not realizing that they got their kids an electric dirt bike instead of an ebike. Of course, you do have the antisocial element of people not caring and actually seeking out these, but we need to separate the different problems to address them, as you are doing.
    - Aurornis 8mo ago
      > In some cases it is legislators like a recent attempt to require ebikes have to register and have a drivers' license for them. Has any legislation been passed or was this only a proposal? Crazy legislation gets proposed all the time with no possibility of passing. Some times no intent of passing, either.
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wintermutestwin 8mo ago
The problem is the rider not the bike.
- 2muchcoffeeman 8mo ago
  Easy for you to say. I’ve almost hit a couple stupid kids on an e-bikes with throttles riding on suburban roads at night with no lights. And I’m seeing more and more fuckwits ride fast on side walks and accelerate to jump of the sidewalk and into traffic. Almost hitting unsuspecting people on the sidewalk. Community needs to police itself. Otherwise it’s just going to be waiting for a critical mass of deaths.
  - skeeter2020 8mo ago
    >> a couple stupid kids on an e-bikes with throttles I'm going to respond every time I see this: not ebikes; these are electronic motorcycles. And this is from someone who thinks ebike are pretty stupid; justified for old and disabled people but only ever seen ridden by fat dentists.
majormajor 8mo ago
why is the throttle the issue and not just the 45MPH? would it be better with pedals and people peddling along in some only-would-ever-make-sense-on-an-ebike gear, but still going 45? the problem is recklessnesss and speed, restrict and enforce those things, don't just let the bike makers shift the product 10% and re-create exactly the same issue, but "legally"
- Aurornis 8mo ago
  > why is the throttle the issue and not just the 45MPH? The bikes with throttles are not legally e-bikes, so the products on the market ignore all of the other e-bike restrictions too. They have much more power and higher top speeds. Even if they were fully limited, pedaling ensure more rider engagement and changes how people ride them. When you have to put some effort, however small, into moving the bike around you ride differently than if it's an effortless throttle input.
  - deleted 8mo ago
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  - Manuel_D 8mo ago
    There are plenty of ebikes with throttles that have less power than ebikes without throttles. E.g. a lectric xpress 500 has 500 watts, there are some pedal assist only bikes with 750 or more watts. It's power and speed that matters, as you point out, so make regulation built on that. Heck, arguably pedal assist is a throttle, it's just a different mechanism vs a twist handle.
SoftTalker 8mo ago
Cyclists on track bikes going 30+ mph on mixed use trails are almost as bad. You either ride responsibly or you're a selfish asshole. The vehicle doesn't matter as much.
- yourusername 8mo ago
  Over here track bikes are not road legal and people who can legit hit 30 mph for any amount of time is maybe 1/1000. Any 12 year old kid that can convince their parents to buy them a $1000 Chinese e-bike can hit 30mph with no effort. In no way are sports cyclists as bad a problem.

c0balt 8mo ago

> Pedal assist ebikes are incredible, and really just turn weak cyclists into strong cyclists The more useful case ime is turning cyclists with reduced mobility into regular cyclists. In particular quite a few elderly people seem to have picked it up in my city, they aren't quite strong riders but definitely seem able of adapting to normal traffic. It also seems like a significantly safer option for individual transport than cars (especially in regards to the other traffic participants).

tokai 8mo ago
You just repeated W²s point.
mikestew 8mo ago
The more useful case ime is turning cyclists with reduced mobility into regular cyclists. You mean, turn weak cyclists into strong cyclists, like GP said? :-)
- KennyBlanken 8mo ago
  No. Reduced mobility doesn't mean "weak." It means reduced mobility. It's right there in the words. People who cannot pedal much at all, even the motion, no matter how light it is. Joint issues / surgery, deformities, etc. Don't be smarmy.
  - Filligree 8mo ago
    If you can't pedal at all, then an e-bike definitionally won't help you. An e-moped might be suitable.
brianwawok 8mo ago
Elderly on a basically unlicensed motorcycle is a good recipe for injury. Pretty sure the stats look bad for this group especially
jacquesm 8mo ago
> The more useful case ime is turning cyclists with reduced mobility into regular cyclists. That's exactly my use case. I've got a bad leg and this thing made all the difference for longer rides.

michaelt 8mo ago

To me, that sounds like a task for your country’s lawmakers, rather than “Just don't call them ebikes” Motorbikes need training, a license, insurance, registration, a minimum age, etc - and you’re competing with small petrol motorcycles which are cheap new, and plentiful on the used market. E-bike makers aren’t going to volunteer for that - it’d destroy their business.

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occz 8mo ago
>E-bike makers aren't going to volunteer for that it'd destroy their business. Arguably, complete bans will be even worse for business.
WarmWash 8mo ago
New Jersey just passed some of the most onerous and short sighted ebike laws in the world last month. Basically anything that has two wheels and a non-human energy source drive is now a motorcycle, requiring a license, registration (including a license plate), insurance, and a DOT approved motorcycle helmet, as well as This law came on the back of two teens being killed on ebikes last year. This is the exact kind of idiotic knee-jerk legislation that will come from the public and governments general ignorance on the state of electric tandem wheel transportation. So now in New Jersey, Betsy with her class 1 250W pedal assist ebike must get her license and don her motorcycle helmet while only riding on roads with her insured, registered, and license plated 15 mph bicycle. Lawmakers aren't going to do their homework, they will just kneejerk appease the general public.
- parineum 8mo ago
  This is what happens when ebike companies take every opportunity to skirt the laws like putting easily removable limiters on motorcycles with pedals and a chain with a gear ratio that makes pedalling practically impossible. I don't know if there was an existing attempt at regulation in NJ specifically but that's happening all around the country. The problem is that, while ebikes have a ton of really good use cases, the big market for them is basically kids who want to drive a motorcycle before they're allowed. Ebike companies are going to try to sell to that market any way they can.

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captainmuon 8mo ago

I don't understand that point. Why do e-bikes become better or more safe when you have to rotate your legs? Its really frustrating and silly that I have to go through the motions (literally) of riding a bicycle if I want to get the priviledge of using a bike lane or going without a license plate. (At least that's the case here in Germany AFAIK). They could go ahead and make "fast electric bikes" and "slow electric bikes" or something as categories and that would make sense - but hinging the decision on whether your legs or your wrist is turning is illogical. I think it is actually morally charged - like you have to put in the work if you want the privilege.

tokai 8mo ago
Its easy, the accelerations are completely different and very hard to gauge. Also you have the elderly going speeds that does not mach their reactions, while also being unaware of how fast they are going. If you try biking with them it become very obvious how many dangerous situations they cause compared to true e-bike and normal bikes.
- Gigachad 8mo ago
  Pedal assist feels like amplifying your natural power. The boost it gives is perfectly matched with your own movements so it feels more like you are just super fit. And there is far less chance you can just slip and apply too much power unlike throttle controlled.
- jiri 8mo ago
  In my area, I think that non electric bikes are often more dangerous: they are often non tolerant of others and hesitant to slow down because of speed conservation. Especially in our hilly town. Easy "free" acceleration is plus here.
WarmWash 8mo ago
Don't let perfect be the enemy of good. We can focus on clamping down of "faux pedal ebikes" when the time comes, but for now it looks like we'll be throwing out everything to just to stop teenagers on surrons.

conductr 8mo ago

As an alternative mode of transportation, that could/should replace car usage for many people, I think we need to separate the two completely as well. The throttle version needs to be regulated more like a motorcycle or moped. This would take it out of the hands of most kids and cause license suspension worries for young adults and other reckless users. I agree they are essentially death machines and governments generally have no sane approach to regulating them. That said, I think the e-moto versions have more potential towards alleviating traffic or being an alternative mode of transportation as most people don’t want to peddle at all. E-bikes are great, but I don’t think it’s reasonable to assume that would ever be on the average Joe’s list of feasible alternatives.

SoftTalker 8mo ago
> most people don’t want to peddle at all. Most people don't want a two-wheeler, period. Otherwise everyone would be riding motorcycles. People want a vehicle that will keep them dry, comfortable, and safe. Two-wheelers of all types fail at all of those things.
- oblio 8mo ago
  Plenty of people will ride two wheelers if the infrastructure is good. Most places in the world just have crap infrastructure for using bicycles safely and calmly.
  - conductr 8mo ago
    I tend to agree more with GP, at least in the western world. People I know and pretty certain a huge percentage of the US start their day getting dolled up. Hair, makeup, clothes, etc each and every day. Even without the physical excursions of peddling, people don’t want to be exposed to the dirty outside air and especially dealing with the elements. The want to move from one climate controlled setting to another including their transportation system. The Netherlands where biking is common has a completely different norm for style, dress, fashion and even hygiene because they’ve become so used to biking. The rest of the western world has some work to do in those areas or some realities to face if they ever wanted to actually get on board with bicycling as transportation.

Aerroon 8mo ago

I wouldn't want an e-bike precisely because I can't trust my government not to introduce some new legislation with onerous rules or extra costs. Maybe if they were cheap, but since they cost an arm and a leg there's no reason to get them.

jandrese 8mo ago
You can get a perfectly workable brand new E-Bike for about $1,000 in the US. While that isn’t cheap as chips it’s also not a major investment for middle class individuals.
- avhon1 8mo ago
  The cost wouldn't necessarily be in the bike, but in requirements for mandatory paid registration, licensing classes, insurance, inspection, and safety equipment.
  - lostlogin 8mo ago
    Saving fuel and parking cost adds up fairly quickly if you have a sensible setup. However as a cycle commuters I’m not sure it saves much money over driving if done wrong. I’ve got a glorious bike. I chew through parts and consumables at an expensive rate.

unethical_ban 8mo ago

I think e-motos should be as lightly regulated as possible. The regulations on bike paths should be speed, not pedal vs. non-pedal. And since "bikes" aren't regulated but "mopeds" are, you see people avoiding government BS by shipping e-bikes that have "off-road" mode that enables no-pedal throttles.

thrill 8mo ago

“E-bikes with throttles should not be refereed to as e-bikes” This is simply wrong and does a disservice to the growing eBike interest. The US-federally defined classes are proper and while IMO overly limiting (max speed should be 60kph and still classified as an eBike as it’s simply safer in traffic), they adequately classify what is an eBike and what is not, and having a throttle does not make something not an eBike, but max speed and power. People have this urge to classify their limited version of what something is by how they use it with some desire to belittle others, and want to limit everyone else who have completely different requirements and capabilities and desires. eBikes in most US states can be ridden on sidewalks, in bike lanes, in traffic, on trails, and across a grassy meadow. There is no justifiable reason to require someone to have different eBikes to be able to do all those things with comfort and safety and capability and utility when a well engineered eBike can do all of them. That they might be safer with circumstantially restricted speeds, such as overtaking pedestrians, etc. again does mean multiple eBikes should be mandated to be able to do each of them. In the US, hopefully the next administration will buy a vowel and realize they need to set federal standards and eliminate this hodgepodge state and county and city and park and street and neighborhood capricious variety of who can ride what when and where, and with what gear and at what times and for what reasons. If decisions are made that no one under 13 can ride an eBike, and then only to school until you’re 16, and you must wear a helmet until at least 19, then at least there will be consistent rules for people to argue for and against.

pluralmonad 8mo ago
Why do you think it is bad for communities to set their own standards?
- thrill 8mo ago
  Because if a eBike meets already well defined federal class specifications it is considered a eBike, and not a motor vehicle, and other than setting reasonable speed limits in high foot-traffic areas, local regulations do nothing but complicate life.
bootlooped 8mo ago

s0rce 8mo ago

I really like a low speed throttle, like 3-5mph max is fine. 20mph is too fast and results in ebikes basically designed a motorcycles that cannot be pedaled. The throttle is so nice to have to get started quickly like turning left at a light, if you didn't have time to downshift before stopping, on a hill, or if the bike is heavily loaded with stuff. Its also nice to be able to use to slowly move between cars with your feet off the pedals to keep balance if needed.

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pbmonster 8mo ago
Those are legal, at least in the EU. It's called "push support" or "walk assist", my bike engages it when I long-press the down button. It's purpose is to help you push the heavy e-bike up ramps and hills, but I mainly use it as a throttle when I ride behind my toddler on his balance bike. It's closer to 3mph than 5mph, and as such needs some slow-riding skills, but it works.
- s0rce 8mo ago
  One of my bikes without a thumb throttle has this but there is a bit of delay from the long-press required which I don't like compared to the basically instant response of the thumb throttle. It also requires a bit for attention to press the small button vs the throttle you can keep your eyes on the road.

wintermutestwin 8mo ago

As an oldster who used to do weekly century rides and lost that ability due to nerve damage in my foot (thanks to decades of wearing pointy Italian riding shoes), I’d love it if we could focus on simply enforcing laws that exist rather than saddling arbitrary blanket regulations on lawful citizens. I built an ebike and hell yes I put a throttle on it because it enables me to ride more technical trails. This bike has dramatically increased my quality of life. Please leave me alone and if someone uses a throttle bike in an illegal manner give them a ticket.

socalgal2 8mo ago
I'm sypathetic but ... unlike cars, bikes don't have large each to read license plates. People will scream about facial recognition. I'm not trying to take away your freedom. I've just wished they'd enforce traffic laws on cyclists but it's just not going to happen and cyclists know it so they almost all break traffic laws with impunity.
- Tostino 8mo ago
  You know who generally stops at a stop sign or stoplight? People on an e-bike, compared to people riding for sport or commuting on road bikes. It's not a big deal to stop and get started again when you have a motor. It's a pain in the ass when you're trying to make it to work on time with your legs. Why is having a license plate even relevant here? Most traffic enforcement is done when an officer sees something happen.
  - freeopinion 8mo ago
    How else will a witness be able to report the get-away bike in a bank robbery?
    - lostlogin 8mo ago
      ‘He’s is on a bike carrying 7 large sacks of cash’.
- 8mo ago

afavour 8mo ago

I think there are many more factors to it than that. I own a Radwagon, a cargo e-bike and I take my kids to school on it. It’s both pedal assist and has a throttle and maxes out at 20mph. I find the throttle very useful because the bike is pretty damn heavy with two kids on it and moving from a standing stop is much easier when I can give it a quick throttle burst then start pedalling. All that said, I do agree the term is overloaded. The bike lines in NYC often have people riding electric mopeds in them and that feels dangerous. Their max speed is clearly way above 20mph and they’re bulky. They belong on the road with other mopeds. So IMO the definition of ebike should factor in max speed more than it should throttle vs not. (And also, seconding the awesomeness of ebikes. My kids love riding on it and it’s allowed us to take so many trips that would have been difficult otherwise. It’s also allowed us to avoid buying a car, for now at least)

IshKebab 8mo ago
The problem with max speed is that while big legit ebike manufacturers respect it (e.g. you can't buy a Bosch ebike in the UK that will go above 15.5mph), you can easily get Chinese models that don't care, or you can mod other bikes that do fairly easily. I don't know what the solution is tbh.
- jandrese 8mo ago
  Why not just define the law in terms of maximum speed and be fine with it? Why nitpick over control modes? I can guarantee that if I asked 10 random cops what the restrictions are of a Class 2 e-bike not more than 1 could answer, but if I asked them to stop people who were going over 30mph on the bike trail they could figure it out.
  - IshKebab 8mo ago
    I agree the control mode restrictions are dumb. Lime-style ebikes have their assist set so high that you don't need to put any effort at all into pedaling. Effectively the pedals are the throttle. But anyway that's nothing to do with the problem of ebike hooligans. The law is also defined in terms of maximum speed. Anyone going over 15.5mph (without pedaling really hard) is breaking the law. It's not ambiguous when this is happening; it's just impractical for the police to do anything about it.

Qwertious 8mo ago

There's not much difference between a throttle and a sufficiently powerful pedal-assist. Switch to your top gear, and the torque-sensor will say "gee that's a steep hill, let me give you a boost" the moment you start pedalling. Banning throttles just makes manufacturers install token pedals on the motorbikes.

Gigachad 8mo ago
In theory maybe, but in reality pedal assist bikes are far more likely to be compliant with speed and power restrictions and designed to feel like a bike. While throttle bikes are almost always sold as dirt bikes for use on private property.
- jandrese 8mo ago
  When I think of throttle assist in an e-bike my thought is not about dirt bikes but instead the incredibly common low end cadence sensing e-bikes that are hard to get started from a stop.

bjustin 8mo ago

I propose a new and improved e-bike classification scheme: Class A: Bikes that can not go over 10mph via a throttle. And can’t go over 28mph with pedal assist. Or set the pedal assist limit at 20mph if you’re feeling especially conservative. Class B-Class infinity: These aren’t considered bikes. Class A is the only class of e-bike.

Qwertious 8mo ago
Fixed for metric: >Class A: Bikes that can not go over 10mph (16km/h) via a throttle. And can’t go over 28mph (45km/h) with pedal assist. Or set the pedal assist limit at 20mph (32km/h) if you’re feeling especially conservative. In Australia, the pedal-assist limit is 25km/h (~15.5mph). And frankly, that's plenty.
- namibj 8mo ago
  A major problem is there not being a way a city can legally speed limit a road such that it can ticket cars who go faster than what the bikes allow assisted. If you take away their legal reasons for overtaking you while you go as far as the bike let's you and there's nothing ahead of you, you've already massively reduced the amount of dangerous overtaking, and you can aggressively police the remaining overtaking for speeding without having to prove they are overtaking in a dangerous manner.
rsynnott 8mo ago
> And can’t go over 28mph with pedal assist. Or set the pedal assist limit at 20mph if you’re feeling especially conservative. That doesn't seem _that_ conservative, honestly. Lots of places have a 20mph/30km/h limit for _cars_ in urban areas.
- bjustin 8mo ago
  There are plenty of long, straight, flat roads around town here, where riding at 28mph would be perfectly safe. People driving feel free to go 30+mph, after all. My e-bike's assist only goes up to 20mph, which I can sustain even without assist on many of those roads. I'd guess 25mph would be about as fast as I could go with assist while still feeling safe on a bike.

idontwantthis 8mo ago

The throttle isn't a problem, the top speed is. A throttle and pedal assist is nice because you can get started faster and more safely from a stop. Kids riding out of spec motorcycles has always been illegal and always will be. The only problem is that they are a lot cheaper than they used to be.

LoganDark 8mo ago

I have a disability and can't pedal for many minutes or hours straight, but my electric scooter with a throttle is absolutely amazing for helping me get around areas that would otherwise require tons of walking (or pedaling). I guess I'm a demon that needs to be regulated out of existence?

aeternum 8mo ago

A throttle is excellent on an e-bike especially for city riding. It is far easier to move at slow speeds by applying a small amount of throttle vs. trying to torque the pedals just the right amount, if behind someone or near pedestrians. Many e-bikes don't have torque sensors and instead use a cheap rotation sensor so the motor engages almost randomly at certain points in pedal rotation when moving at slow speed.

pbmonster 8mo ago
> Many e-bikes don't have torque sensors and instead use a cheap rotation sensor so the motor engages almost randomly at certain points in pedal rotation when moving at slow speed. Today, those are mostly limited to Walmart-tier quality e-bikes. Even the very next step up (still big box store bikes) usually come with torque sensors.

oceanplexian 8mo ago

Have you ever owned a motorcycle or are you making up dramatic terminology to prove a point? The quick e-bikes aren’t motorcycles, not even close. Something in the Sur Ron class (30-40MPH) would be equivalent to a 50cc 2 stroke which you can ride with nothing more than a drivers license. Even then hopped up Talaria’s are a pit bike and don’t remotely approach a low end sports bike. Fast e-bikes aren’t bicycles but they aren’t motorcycles. We already have a term for that, mopeds and scooters. Instead of banning everything the clear solution would be to treat them the same as mopeds (Have to be 18, wear a helmet, may or may not need a license) and call it a day without all the drama.

Manuel_D 8mo ago

Disagree, the wattage of the motor is what's relevant. A 750 watt ebike with pedal assist has more potential to cause harm than a 250 watt "emoto" with a throttle. The whole throttle vs pedal assist distinction makes way less sense than delineating the difference based on power.

avhon1 8mo ago
Wattage is basically meaningless. There is nk standard way to measure it. Almost all "250 watt" ebikes consume much more than 250 watts of electricity at full throttle, and can produce much more than 250 watts of mechanical output for seconds or minutes at a time.
- Manuel_D 8mo ago
  The fact they listed wattage and actual peak wattage is different doesn't change the fact that an e-bike's power, not whether the throttle is connected to the handle bars or the pedal, is what actually creates fast and dangerous bikes. If regulation based on power was drafted, it'd be a simple matter of using a voltmeter and galvanometer to see if a bike is compliant with power limits (arguably motors have different efficiencies, but electric motors are close enough to 100% to use this method).

jacobajit 8mo ago

The distinctions drawn here are particularly interesting in China. Somewhere like Shanghai, you'll see ~70% of traffic in "bike" lanes are what appear to be electric mopeds. But if you look closer, all of these mopeds technically have tiny attachment points for pedals. Government regulations allowed e-bikes to be driven unlicensed (but with a special green license plate, unlike the US!) and wherever bicycles are allowed. At the same time, the delivery industry and commuters wanted something stable, capable of carrying cargo/passengers. So the form factor adopted was that of mopeds, while vestigial pedal attachments were provided in order to pass as "e-bikes" under the regulatory criteria. Example. [0] In practice, using pedals on these made for a clunky experience so they were not usually attached at all. The other main regulatory criterion was that these have to be limited to <= 25 km/h, unlike true mopeds/motorcycles. In practice, these speed limiters were also removed, setting up a cat-and-mouse game between police and riders. The rule requiring the vestigial pedals was finally removed a few months ago, meaning that the ontology of "e-bikes" is pretty different in China now. [1] (Pedal-assist traditional bike frames also exist, but they share space with the larger mopeds in bike lanes and bike parking. True electric mopeds and motorcycles also exist, but they are effectively regulated out of existence in big cities.) At the end of the day, top speeds are more determinant of whether different modes of transportation can coexist than pedals or form factor. [0] https://www.youtube.com/shorts/r4HAUJDQT1w https://www.youtube.com/shorts/r4HAUJDQT1w [1] https://chinamotorworld.com/chinese-e-bike-new-standard/ https://chinamotorworld.com/chinese-e-bike-new-standard/