4 ms·

Ukraine is a democracy with a legitimate leadership that was not planning to acquire nukes and has no history of planning to remove Russia from the map. To sugg

Ukraine is a democracy with a legitimate leadership that was not planning to acquire nukes and has no history of planning to remove Russia from the map. To suggest that this attack on Iran is the same as the Russian invasion of Ukraine is very misguided.

m_ke 7mo ago
You forgot the genocide they have going and the current attempt to starve Cuba into submission with their little "blockade"
- reliabilityguy 7mo ago
  [flagged]
  - hiddencost 7mo ago
    They're engaged in willful destruction of hospitals, they kill journalists on purpose, they have systematically blocked aid. Their friend minister recently declared an intent to eliminate all Palestinian territory. You're just lying.
    - reliabilityguy 7mo ago
      > They're engaged in willful destruction of hospitals If a civilian facility is used for military purposes it is a legitimate target. Ukranians also bomb schools and hospitals. Are Ukranians commit genocide? If a hospital is never be attacked, what prevents militaries simply use hospitals as military bases? It's like the ultimate "get out of jail" free card. > they kill journalists on purpose US also did in Iraq. And? Does it make US's invasion of Iraq a genocide? Ukranians killed Russian journalists too. Does it make the war in Ukraine a genocide? > they have systematically blocked aid Egypt did so as well. Moreover, despite its international obligations, Egypt refused to accept Palestinian refugees as if it wanted a lot of civilians to die. > Their friend minister recently declared an intent to eliminate all Palestinian territory. You mean politicians pandering to their base? > You're just lying. Sure.
      - primroot 7mo ago
        Please provide sources. Genocide is not a matter of cherry-picking or of opinion. People who take this debate seriously look into context and evidence with a level of detail that goes beyond what can be covered here. Anyone interested in arguments and counterarguments will inevitable have to refer to authorities in the matter who have the background, time and resources.
        reliabilityguy 7mo ago
        > Please provide sources. Sources to what? Laws of war? W.r.t. hospitals, you can read this article: https://lieber.westpoint.edu/legal-protection-hospitals-during-armed-conflict/ https://lieber.westpoint.edu/legal-protection-hospitals-duri... This piece in particular: > The ICRC’s Commentary cites as examples “firing at the enemy for reasons other than individual self-defence, installing a firing position in a medical post, the use of a hospital as a shelter for able-bodied combatants, as an arms or ammunition dump, or as a military observation post.” It also states that “transmitting information of military value” or being used “as a centre for liaison with fighting troops” results in loss of protection. So, given that Palestinians used schools consistently to hide weapons, are you saying that it never happens? It seems to me completely unreasonable to claim that Israelis destroyed "all the schools, hospitals, universities because they want genocide" very questionable given that Palestinians used civilian infrastructure and NGOs for its resistance in the past. If they did it, why won't they do it again? Link: https://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/unrwa-condemns-placement-rockets-second-time-one-its-schools https://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/unrwa-condemns... > Genocide is not a matter of cherry-picking or of opinion. Of course not. It is also not a a single %. > People who take this debate seriously look into context and evidence with a level of detail that goes beyond what can be covered here. Anyone interested in arguments and counterarguments will inevitable have to refer to authorities in the matter who have the background, time and resources. Absolutely. However, people here are using the term genocide as it is a settled matter. Moreover, their whole reasoning boils down to metrics that either show that any war is a genocide, or have no bearing at all.
        autoexec 7mo ago
        Don't bother. He just effectively argued that there are no illegitimate targets in war because soldiers can be anywhere and that hospitals must be targeted or else they are "get out of jail free cards" whatever the fuck that means. War is war, but war crimes are still war crimes. No point trying to have rational discourse with someone advocating for war crimes.
  - m_ke 7mo ago
    50% as in the barely armed males that were killed like fish in a barrel https://www.thelancet.com/journals/langlo/article/PIIS2214-109X(25)00522-4/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/langlo/article/PIIS2214-1... > Women, children (ie, younger than 18 years), and older people (ie, older than 64 years) comprised 56·2% (95% CI 50·4–61·9) of violent deaths
    - reliabilityguy 7mo ago
      I am not sure what is the point you are trying to make with these stats. It is clear that if half of the killed were militants, the other half is not by definition. 50% of casualties being civilians does not mean it is a genocide.
      - m_ke 7mo ago
        if you slaughter civilians and label all males as combatants you conveniently get a near 50% militant death rate don't play dumb, there's a reason israel is not letting foreign media into gaza and slaughtering local journalists at a rate never seen in history of war
        reliabilityguy 7mo ago
        > if you slaughter civilians and label all males as combatants you conveniently get a near 50% militant death rate Say the ratio is 1:4, then what? > don't play dumb, there's a reason israel is not letting foreign media into gaza and slaughtering local journalists at a rate never seen in history of war And, at the same time, they keep all the internet links alive so that Palestinians can show the whole world the "genocide"? Like, do you really think that Israelis are that dumb? Islamic Republic shut down the internet to hide the scope of butchery, but Israelis did not figure it out?
        m_ke 7mo ago
        yes poor israel with it's nukes and iron dome is being oppressed by a bunch of women and children living in an open prison now please tell me what you'd like to see happen with the remaining palestinians and what you expect to happen in the middle east after you destabilize another major country in the region
watwut 7mo ago
Ukraine got rid of nukes and it was massive collosal mistake. In alternative universe where they win and get territory back and get economy on track, they would be 100% warranted to get the nukes. My point is, Ukraine war and the way it evolved shows that not having nukes is a bad position.
- reliabilityguy 7mo ago
  > My point is, Ukraine war and the way it evolved shows that not having nukes is a bad position. Israel (allegedly? idk) has nukes. Did it stop October 7th? Did it stop Iran from firing ballistic missiles? The war of today is not an open war (the war in Ukraine did not start on February 24 2022, but in 2014) where nuclear deterrence matters. Nuke will never help if the war is waged through proxies.
  - kdheiwns 7mo ago
    To be fair, nuking a piece of land that you claim you own and is also just a few miles away and downwind of your own citizens is a fairly difficult thing to do. Nukes are a great deterrent when it's a place at least 100 miles from your borders, and better if even farther. They're useless in your own backyard.
    - amelius 7mo ago
      That's probably not the main reason. Citing: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47157393 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47157393 > I've spoken with engineers who worked on nuclear weapons systems, the consensus is that the public is deeply misinformed about how they work, the dangers, and the implications of weapons being used. (...) > The biggest danger of a nuclear weapon is being hit by flying debris. > Fusion airburst bombs of the modern era are incredibly clean and radiation is only a risk in a very small area (tens of miles) for a short time (days to weeks). (...)
      - kdheiwns 7mo ago
        Your own quotes contradict you. Gaza isn't even 10 miles wide. If nukes are safe from over 10s of miles away, then nuking Gaza would without a doubt endanger Israel since there's no place they could irradiate that would be sufficiently far from them. Plus if Israel thinks it's fine to use them, then countries that don't like Israel will be glad to get that approval to go ahead with using their own
FireBeyond 7mo ago
Iran has been "a week away" from acquiring nukes since Netanyahu first claimed it in the 90s. Not six months ago, Trump launched a strike that "completely obliterated" Iran's ability to obtain nukes. And then, either because he has the memory of a goldfish, or thinks that we do (both are somewhat true), he pulled out "a week away", again, at the SOTU. "We must attack Iran to destroy what I told you we destroyed last year." Iran may be planning to do so. But this is just a boogeyman being used (again) by Israel and the US.
sosomoxie 7mo ago
It's not the same as all, whatever you think of the Ukraine, it used to be part of the Soviet Union. Russia and the Ukraine fighting is a "normal" war. The US has absolutely no business attacking Iran. It's entirely unprovoked and at the behest of the terrorist "nation" of Israel, which also should have nothing to do with the US.
- kyboren 7mo ago
  > The US has absolutely no business attacking Iran. Iran's theocratic regime just murdered tens of thousands of protestors, regularly organizes chants of "Death to America", calls the US "The Great Satan", sponsors terror organizations all around the region, has (through their Houthi proxies) cut off critical sea lanes in one of the most strategic areas, is very close to developing nuclear weapons (with enough HEU already to build maybe a dozen bombs), has extensive ballistic missile magazines and expertise, and is working on ICBMs explicitly to reach the US homeland. But oh yeah, this is totally unprovoked and the US has no business attacking Iran. Right.
  - sosomoxie 7mo ago
    [flagged]
    - Redoubts 7mo ago
      > There's absolutely no proof that happened. Pathetic.
      - sosomoxie 7mo ago
        What I said is factual. We're already seeing pictures of murdered children coming out of Iran, just like we did with Gaza, the West Bank, Lebanon... Not a single shred of evidence has been produced to back the claim that Iran murdered anyone, let alone tens of thousands of people.
        kyboren 7mo ago

m_ke 7mo ago

You forgot the genocide they have going and the current attempt to starve Cuba into submission with their little "blockade"

reliabilityguy 7mo ago
[flagged]
- hiddencost 7mo ago
  They're engaged in willful destruction of hospitals, they kill journalists on purpose, they have systematically blocked aid. Their friend minister recently declared an intent to eliminate all Palestinian territory. You're just lying.
  - reliabilityguy 7mo ago
    > They're engaged in willful destruction of hospitals If a civilian facility is used for military purposes it is a legitimate target. Ukranians also bomb schools and hospitals. Are Ukranians commit genocide? If a hospital is never be attacked, what prevents militaries simply use hospitals as military bases? It's like the ultimate "get out of jail" free card. > they kill journalists on purpose US also did in Iraq. And? Does it make US's invasion of Iraq a genocide? Ukranians killed Russian journalists too. Does it make the war in Ukraine a genocide? > they have systematically blocked aid Egypt did so as well. Moreover, despite its international obligations, Egypt refused to accept Palestinian refugees as if it wanted a lot of civilians to die. > Their friend minister recently declared an intent to eliminate all Palestinian territory. You mean politicians pandering to their base? > You're just lying. Sure.
    - primroot 7mo ago
      Please provide sources. Genocide is not a matter of cherry-picking or of opinion. People who take this debate seriously look into context and evidence with a level of detail that goes beyond what can be covered here. Anyone interested in arguments and counterarguments will inevitable have to refer to authorities in the matter who have the background, time and resources.
      - reliabilityguy 7mo ago
        > Please provide sources. Sources to what? Laws of war? W.r.t. hospitals, you can read this article: https://lieber.westpoint.edu/legal-protection-hospitals-during-armed-conflict/ https://lieber.westpoint.edu/legal-protection-hospitals-duri... This piece in particular: > The ICRC’s Commentary cites as examples “firing at the enemy for reasons other than individual self-defence, installing a firing position in a medical post, the use of a hospital as a shelter for able-bodied combatants, as an arms or ammunition dump, or as a military observation post.” It also states that “transmitting information of military value” or being used “as a centre for liaison with fighting troops” results in loss of protection. So, given that Palestinians used schools consistently to hide weapons, are you saying that it never happens? It seems to me completely unreasonable to claim that Israelis destroyed "all the schools, hospitals, universities because they want genocide" very questionable given that Palestinians used civilian infrastructure and NGOs for its resistance in the past. If they did it, why won't they do it again? Link: https://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/unrwa-condemns-placement-rockets-second-time-one-its-schools https://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/unrwa-condemns... > Genocide is not a matter of cherry-picking or of opinion. Of course not. It is also not a a single %. > People who take this debate seriously look into context and evidence with a level of detail that goes beyond what can be covered here. Anyone interested in arguments and counterarguments will inevitable have to refer to authorities in the matter who have the background, time and resources. Absolutely. However, people here are using the term genocide as it is a settled matter. Moreover, their whole reasoning boils down to metrics that either show that any war is a genocide, or have no bearing at all.
      - autoexec 7mo ago
        Don't bother. He just effectively argued that there are no illegitimate targets in war because soldiers can be anywhere and that hospitals must be targeted or else they are "get out of jail free cards" whatever the fuck that means. War is war, but war crimes are still war crimes. No point trying to have rational discourse with someone advocating for war crimes.
- m_ke 7mo ago
  50% as in the barely armed males that were killed like fish in a barrel https://www.thelancet.com/journals/langlo/article/PIIS2214-109X(25)00522-4/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/langlo/article/PIIS2214-1... > Women, children (ie, younger than 18 years), and older people (ie, older than 64 years) comprised 56·2% (95% CI 50·4–61·9) of violent deaths
  - reliabilityguy 7mo ago
    I am not sure what is the point you are trying to make with these stats. It is clear that if half of the killed were militants, the other half is not by definition. 50% of casualties being civilians does not mean it is a genocide.
    - m_ke 7mo ago
      if you slaughter civilians and label all males as combatants you conveniently get a near 50% militant death rate don't play dumb, there's a reason israel is not letting foreign media into gaza and slaughtering local journalists at a rate never seen in history of war
      - reliabilityguy 7mo ago
        > if you slaughter civilians and label all males as combatants you conveniently get a near 50% militant death rate Say the ratio is 1:4, then what? > don't play dumb, there's a reason israel is not letting foreign media into gaza and slaughtering local journalists at a rate never seen in history of war And, at the same time, they keep all the internet links alive so that Palestinians can show the whole world the "genocide"? Like, do you really think that Israelis are that dumb? Islamic Republic shut down the internet to hide the scope of butchery, but Israelis did not figure it out?
        m_ke 7mo ago
        yes poor israel with it's nukes and iron dome is being oppressed by a bunch of women and children living in an open prison now please tell me what you'd like to see happen with the remaining palestinians and what you expect to happen in the middle east after you destabilize another major country in the region

watwut 7mo ago

Ukraine got rid of nukes and it was massive collosal mistake. In alternative universe where they win and get territory back and get economy on track, they would be 100% warranted to get the nukes. My point is, Ukraine war and the way it evolved shows that not having nukes is a bad position.

reliabilityguy 7mo ago
> My point is, Ukraine war and the way it evolved shows that not having nukes is a bad position. Israel (allegedly? idk) has nukes. Did it stop October 7th? Did it stop Iran from firing ballistic missiles? The war of today is not an open war (the war in Ukraine did not start on February 24 2022, but in 2014) where nuclear deterrence matters. Nuke will never help if the war is waged through proxies.
- kdheiwns 7mo ago
  To be fair, nuking a piece of land that you claim you own and is also just a few miles away and downwind of your own citizens is a fairly difficult thing to do. Nukes are a great deterrent when it's a place at least 100 miles from your borders, and better if even farther. They're useless in your own backyard.
  - amelius 7mo ago
    That's probably not the main reason. Citing: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47157393 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47157393 > I've spoken with engineers who worked on nuclear weapons systems, the consensus is that the public is deeply misinformed about how they work, the dangers, and the implications of weapons being used. (...) > The biggest danger of a nuclear weapon is being hit by flying debris. > Fusion airburst bombs of the modern era are incredibly clean and radiation is only a risk in a very small area (tens of miles) for a short time (days to weeks). (...)
    - kdheiwns 7mo ago
      Your own quotes contradict you. Gaza isn't even 10 miles wide. If nukes are safe from over 10s of miles away, then nuking Gaza would without a doubt endanger Israel since there's no place they could irradiate that would be sufficiently far from them. Plus if Israel thinks it's fine to use them, then countries that don't like Israel will be glad to get that approval to go ahead with using their own

FireBeyond 7mo ago

Iran has been "a week away" from acquiring nukes since Netanyahu first claimed it in the 90s. Not six months ago, Trump launched a strike that "completely obliterated" Iran's ability to obtain nukes. And then, either because he has the memory of a goldfish, or thinks that we do (both are somewhat true), he pulled out "a week away", again, at the SOTU. "We must attack Iran to destroy what I told you we destroyed last year." Iran may be planning to do so. But this is just a boogeyman being used (again) by Israel and the US.

sosomoxie 7mo ago

It's not the same as all, whatever you think of the Ukraine, it used to be part of the Soviet Union. Russia and the Ukraine fighting is a "normal" war. The US has absolutely no business attacking Iran. It's entirely unprovoked and at the behest of the terrorist "nation" of Israel, which also should have nothing to do with the US.

kyboren 7mo ago
> The US has absolutely no business attacking Iran. Iran's theocratic regime just murdered tens of thousands of protestors, regularly organizes chants of "Death to America", calls the US "The Great Satan", sponsors terror organizations all around the region, has (through their Houthi proxies) cut off critical sea lanes in one of the most strategic areas, is very close to developing nuclear weapons (with enough HEU already to build maybe a dozen bombs), has extensive ballistic missile magazines and expertise, and is working on ICBMs explicitly to reach the US homeland. But oh yeah, this is totally unprovoked and the US has no business attacking Iran. Right.
- sosomoxie 7mo ago
  [flagged]
  - Redoubts 7mo ago
    > There's absolutely no proof that happened. Pathetic.
    - sosomoxie 7mo ago
      What I said is factual. We're already seeing pictures of murdered children coming out of Iran, just like we did with Gaza, the West Bank, Lebanon... Not a single shred of evidence has been produced to back the claim that Iran murdered anyone, let alone tens of thousands of people.
      - kyboren 7mo ago