6 ms·

If this were true, why didn’t the chatbot immediately recognize that the word “Taiwan” should trigger the response? Detecting the word “Taiwan” has been possibl

If this were true, why didn’t the chatbot immediately recognize that the word “Taiwan” should trigger the response? Detecting the word “Taiwan” has been possible since before most of us were born. China has more restrictions on what you can say than the U.S. but what you are describing is not reality. Some westerner asking Deepseek about Taiwan is completely uninteresting. Just as the government do not chase people over VPN usage. China doesn’t try to hide that they are an authoritarian state. They don’t need to. Most people in China are no less happy with their government than westerners are with their governments. Governments reflect culture. And as for foreigners, our view of China is far worse than it actually is, China doesn’t need to hide anything, people who visit China will come away with a more positive view of the country than those who do not visit.

deleted 8mo ago
[deleted]
CWuestefeld 8mo ago
This is manifestly false. My wife grew up in Shanghai, and you'll have to go quite some distance to find someone more critical of the PRC and CCP than she is. And it's with good reason. She grew up during the cultural revolution, and was largely raised by her grandmother because literally every other person in her extended family was in prison or work camp, not because of anything they had actually done wrong, but for political reasons because the whole family was blacklisted. And that's not just the old days. Her father died as a direct result of Chinese Covid policy. During the pandemic her cousins still in the country would ask her (on Skype) "is X true?", and largely their perception of what was going on was false. She would exfiltrate encrypted news reports to them - until those started getting blocked. Her dad's estate still has affairs that need to be resolved, but we've decided not to return to China until Xi is gone, as it's just not safe. It doesn't get much airplay, but there are currently a couple of hundred Americans who are being illegally detained in China right now. It's not worth the risk. My first trip to China was about 30 years ago, shortly after we got married. And back then, I would have said that you were right. Honestly, it felt like for the average person in their day-to-day-lives, the Chinese were less under the governmental thumb than we are. People from the countryside would bring their produce into the city to sell, or cook dumplings and buns to sell on the side of the street - stuff that in America we'd have to get permits for. It seemed that the oligarchy had an understanding with the people: let us control the big picture, and we'll look the other way for the little things. But Chinese politics is a pendulum swinging very widely. From Tienanmen Square and Tank Man, it had swung quite a bit the other way. But today, it's come back 180-degrees. Xi is really trying for a Cultural Revolution 2.0. These impressions largely match what I hear from other Chinese immigrants - except for Party members, who tend not to want to talk about it at all. I'm afraid that you've been listening to too much propaganda.
- 3rodents 8mo ago
  [flagged]
  - CWuestefeld 8mo ago
    The fact that the USA and others are also trending authoritarian isn't really relevant. The point I was trying to make is that people have legit fears of the PRC government, enough so that legitimate business like settling a deceased parent's affairs isn't sufficient to convince people to enter the country. You haven't addressed at all the parts about blacklisting whole families for political reasons, or horrible return-to-normal policies for covid-19 three years ago, or the general pendulum-swing-back-to-evil trend.
    - fasbiner 8mo ago
      I don't doubt you, but what if someone's else's wife felt differently. Would that counteract your wife? Or is your wife special in an objective sense and her intuitions about hypotheticals are more valid than anyone else's? Your wife feels a certain way and wanted to avoid a certain hypothetical. But since it didn't happen, we have no way of knowing how relevant these feelings are. How can we address blacklisting and covid response if you are insisting that any comparison isn't relevant and that we should evaluate it with no baseline?
      - CWuestefeld 7mo ago
        I don't recall insisting that no comparison could be relevant. If you have any particular comparison to offer, you should do that, else your criticism is vapor.
  - netsharc 8mo ago
    Sheesh, an actual Whataboutism. The fact that "the US does it too!" won't help Grandparent poster/his wife if they get detained in China. GP says "there are currently a couple of hundred Americans who are being illegally detained in China right now", most likely they are dual citizens, or were born in China, and from China's point of view, one can't lose the Chinese citizenship, and they're detaining their own citizens.
sarchertech 8mo ago
>And as for foreigners, our view of China is far worse than it actually is, China doesn’t need to hide anything, people who visit China will come away with a more positive view of the country than those who do not visit. To the extent that's true, it's because they won't let you see the uyghur reeducation camps.
- hungryhobo 8mo ago
  [flagged]
  - sarchertech 8mo ago
    https://www.icij.org/investigations/china-cables/beijings-backtrack-on-xinjiang-detention-camps-spurred-by-icij-investigation-research-finds/ https://www.icij.org/investigations/china-cables/beijings-ba...
- MaxPock 8mo ago
  We can get videos from remote hellholes of Africa like Dafur and Mali but apparently,that's too much to ask in Xinjiang.We can't even get satellite images to show us evidence of this so called wigur genocide
  - sarchertech 8mo ago
    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-01/satellite-images-expose-chinas-network-of-re-education-camps/10432924 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-01/satellite-images-expo... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/extra/85qihtvw6e/the-faces-from-chinas-uyghur-detention-camps https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/extra/85qihtvw6e/the-faces-from-c...
    - xanthor 8mo ago
      If you didn't have British Crown state media wrapping a narrative around these images you wouldn't think anything of them.
gs17 8mo ago
> If this were true, why didn’t the chatbot immediately recognize that the word “Taiwan” should trigger the response? Not recognizing they were outputting wrongthink until after it was being streamed to the user is a known behavior with some Chinese chatbot apps. A quick search found an example of DeepSeek doing it: https://www.reddit.com/r/OpenAI/comments/1ic3kl6/deepseek_censorship_1984_rectifying_in_real_time/ https://www.reddit.com/r/OpenAI/comments/1ic3kl6/deepseek_ce... I don't think his story is genuine, but it showing the "wrong" answer before correcting itself is known behavior. EDIT: Here's an example of it outputting a full response about Taiwan specifically before removing it: https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/1i7ceol/one_of_the_most_advanced_ai_models_available/ https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/1i7ceol/...
- recursive 8mo ago
  I've seen it from the non-Chinese ChatGPT before. Something was deemed to be violating the sensitivity filters or something, and it refused to answer. But only after I saw part of the real answer streamed to the output, and then redacted and replaced.
KHRZ 8mo ago
DeepSeek would print all it's mental gymnastics to censor itself in the reasoning phase directly to the user, before shutting down the conversation. Apparantly such an odd move is a thing in China.
- glenstein 7mo ago
  Right, I think deepseek continues to be massively misunderstood. It appears to be a replication of existing technologies done more efficiently rather than a breakthrough in terms of bootstrapping from the ground up with new capabilities. And at this point people will start saying "well does that matter?" and the answer is yes.
libertine 7mo ago
You can trigger that behavior with Deepseek, just try it yourself.

deleted 8mo ago

[deleted]

CWuestefeld 8mo ago

This is manifestly false. My wife grew up in Shanghai, and you'll have to go quite some distance to find someone more critical of the PRC and CCP than she is. And it's with good reason. She grew up during the cultural revolution, and was largely raised by her grandmother because literally every other person in her extended family was in prison or work camp, not because of anything they had actually done wrong, but for political reasons because the whole family was blacklisted. And that's not just the old days. Her father died as a direct result of Chinese Covid policy. During the pandemic her cousins still in the country would ask her (on Skype) "is X true?", and largely their perception of what was going on was false. She would exfiltrate encrypted news reports to them - until those started getting blocked. Her dad's estate still has affairs that need to be resolved, but we've decided not to return to China until Xi is gone, as it's just not safe. It doesn't get much airplay, but there are currently a couple of hundred Americans who are being illegally detained in China right now. It's not worth the risk. My first trip to China was about 30 years ago, shortly after we got married. And back then, I would have said that you were right. Honestly, it felt like for the average person in their day-to-day-lives, the Chinese were less under the governmental thumb than we are. People from the countryside would bring their produce into the city to sell, or cook dumplings and buns to sell on the side of the street - stuff that in America we'd have to get permits for. It seemed that the oligarchy had an understanding with the people: let us control the big picture, and we'll look the other way for the little things. But Chinese politics is a pendulum swinging very widely. From Tienanmen Square and Tank Man, it had swung quite a bit the other way. But today, it's come back 180-degrees. Xi is really trying for a Cultural Revolution 2.0. These impressions largely match what I hear from other Chinese immigrants - except for Party members, who tend not to want to talk about it at all. I'm afraid that you've been listening to too much propaganda.

3rodents 8mo ago
[flagged]
- CWuestefeld 8mo ago
  The fact that the USA and others are also trending authoritarian isn't really relevant. The point I was trying to make is that people have legit fears of the PRC government, enough so that legitimate business like settling a deceased parent's affairs isn't sufficient to convince people to enter the country. You haven't addressed at all the parts about blacklisting whole families for political reasons, or horrible return-to-normal policies for covid-19 three years ago, or the general pendulum-swing-back-to-evil trend.
  - fasbiner 8mo ago
    I don't doubt you, but what if someone's else's wife felt differently. Would that counteract your wife? Or is your wife special in an objective sense and her intuitions about hypotheticals are more valid than anyone else's? Your wife feels a certain way and wanted to avoid a certain hypothetical. But since it didn't happen, we have no way of knowing how relevant these feelings are. How can we address blacklisting and covid response if you are insisting that any comparison isn't relevant and that we should evaluate it with no baseline?
    - CWuestefeld 7mo ago
      I don't recall insisting that no comparison could be relevant. If you have any particular comparison to offer, you should do that, else your criticism is vapor.
- netsharc 8mo ago
  Sheesh, an actual Whataboutism. The fact that "the US does it too!" won't help Grandparent poster/his wife if they get detained in China. GP says "there are currently a couple of hundred Americans who are being illegally detained in China right now", most likely they are dual citizens, or were born in China, and from China's point of view, one can't lose the Chinese citizenship, and they're detaining their own citizens.

sarchertech 8mo ago

>And as for foreigners, our view of China is far worse than it actually is, China doesn’t need to hide anything, people who visit China will come away with a more positive view of the country than those who do not visit. To the extent that's true, it's because they won't let you see the uyghur reeducation camps.

hungryhobo 8mo ago
[flagged]
- sarchertech 8mo ago
  https://www.icij.org/investigations/china-cables/beijings-backtrack-on-xinjiang-detention-camps-spurred-by-icij-investigation-research-finds/ https://www.icij.org/investigations/china-cables/beijings-ba...
MaxPock 8mo ago
We can get videos from remote hellholes of Africa like Dafur and Mali but apparently,that's too much to ask in Xinjiang.We can't even get satellite images to show us evidence of this so called wigur genocide
- sarchertech 8mo ago
  https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-01/satellite-images-expose-chinas-network-of-re-education-camps/10432924 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-01/satellite-images-expo... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/extra/85qihtvw6e/the-faces-from-chinas-uyghur-detention-camps https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/extra/85qihtvw6e/the-faces-from-c...
  - xanthor 8mo ago
    If you didn't have British Crown state media wrapping a narrative around these images you wouldn't think anything of them.

gs17 8mo ago

> If this were true, why didn’t the chatbot immediately recognize that the word “Taiwan” should trigger the response? Not recognizing they were outputting wrongthink until after it was being streamed to the user is a known behavior with some Chinese chatbot apps. A quick search found an example of DeepSeek doing it: https://www.reddit.com/r/OpenAI/comments/1ic3kl6/deepseek_censorship_1984_rectifying_in_real_time/ https://www.reddit.com/r/OpenAI/comments/1ic3kl6/deepseek_ce... I don't think his story is genuine, but it showing the "wrong" answer before correcting itself is known behavior. EDIT: Here's an example of it outputting a full response about Taiwan specifically before removing it: https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/1i7ceol/one_of_the_most_advanced_ai_models_available/ https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/1i7ceol/...

recursive 8mo ago
I've seen it from the non-Chinese ChatGPT before. Something was deemed to be violating the sensitivity filters or something, and it refused to answer. But only after I saw part of the real answer streamed to the output, and then redacted and replaced.

KHRZ 8mo ago

DeepSeek would print all it's mental gymnastics to censor itself in the reasoning phase directly to the user, before shutting down the conversation. Apparantly such an odd move is a thing in China.

glenstein 7mo ago
Right, I think deepseek continues to be massively misunderstood. It appears to be a replication of existing technologies done more efficiently rather than a breakthrough in terms of bootstrapping from the ground up with new capabilities. And at this point people will start saying "well does that matter?" and the answer is yes.

libertine 7mo ago

You can trigger that behavior with Deepseek, just try it yourself.