4 ms·

In what world does China have a non-imperialist foreign policy?

by chipgap98 7mo ago

hrn_frs 7mo ago
Historically speaking, he's right. China has never had an expansionist foreign policy.
- mobilefriendly 7mo ago
  Tibet, the Philippines, and Taiwan would like to have a word, not to mention Chinese military action in support of its North Korea puppet state, and wars with Vietnam and India.
- sinuhe69 7mo ago
  Are you serious? Don't you know how many wars did China wage? It tried to assimilate Vietnam for 1000 years. The last large scale war against Vietnam was just 1979. In fact, China had started war with all its neighbors, with no exception.
  - MiSeRyDeee 7mo ago
    Do me a favor and name one single country didn't have war with any of its neighbor.
- dpedu 7mo ago
  Nine-dash line?
MiSeRyDeee 7mo ago
In what world does China have a imperialist foreign policy?
- cthalupa 7mo ago
  The one we live in, where they have control over a wide swathe of land mass through imperialism and have actively resisted relinquishing it? The one we live in, where they are constantly surpassing international law in international waters in the South China Sea? The one we live in, where they are constantly rattling sabers at South Korea and Japan when it comes to military expansion? The one we live in, where they brutally cracked down on Hong Kong when they did not abide by the 50 year one country two systems deal, not even making it half of the way through the agreed period? The one we live in, where there is constant threat to Taiwan? It may have been a lazy post you're responding to, but anyone that is paying attention to this topic enough to talk about it is going to either say 'Of course China is imperialist, the same as every other global power' or take some sort of tankie approach to justify it.
  - cwillu 7mo ago
    “One country two systems” is definitionally not imperialism, and given that “One China” is still an internationally recognized thing, neither is Taiwan. “Imperialism” is not a synonym for “morally repugnant government policy”.
    - cthalupa 7mo ago
      I can see the argument for Hong Kong. I don't agree, really, but I can understand it. Under the strictest of definitions, perhaps it isn't. But Taiwan is very obviously a totally separate country no matter what fictions anyone employs. If you are trying to talk about the thin veneer of everyone going "Uh huh, sure, China, yep Taiwan is totally part of you, wink wink, nudge nudge" as somehow making China not imperialist when Taiwan basically lives under the perpetual threat of a Chinese military invasion and having their own democratic form of government overthrown and replaced with the CCP, then... I don't really know what to say. I suppose we could argue about imperialism being more of an economic thing - in which case this all still holds up - China's investments in Africa are effectively the same playbook the US has run out in developing nations for years. The US learned it from prior imperialist nations but belts and roads is nearly a carbon copy of what the US has done in other places. But let's look at what the original poster was actually talking about - saying that China is safe because they don't have a military industrial complex because they're not imperialist. The proper word to use, if we want to get down to the semantics of it all, would be expansionist - but it's still not true. China has the 2nd largest military industrial complex in the world, and the gap is shrinking every day between them and the US. And if you were to look at wartime capacity, where China's dual-use shipyards could be swapped to naval production instead of commercial, a huge portion of that gap disappears immediately.
  - mobilefriendly 7mo ago
    You forgot Tibet and the Uyghurs https://worldwithoutgenocide.org/genocides-and-conflicts/genocide-of-the-uyghurs-in-western-china/china-tibet-and-the-uyghurs https://worldwithoutgenocide.org/genocides-and-conflicts/gen...
    - 7mo ago
statuslover9000 7mo ago
For example, China operates 1 foreign military base, in Djibouti. How many do you think the U.S. has in the South China Sea alone? Beyond that, how many people has China killed in foreign military conflicts in the past 40 years? How many foreign governments have they overthrown? Instead of all this, they’ve used their resources not only to become the world’s economic superpower but also to lift 800 million people out of poverty, accounting for 75% of the world’s reduction during the past 4 decades. The U.S. has added 10 million during that same time period.
- 8note 7mo ago
  why use 40 years as the example? its a pretty convenient framing to exclude the foreign governments its toppled. eg. tibet. the government in exile remains the government in exile. youd have some standing if china dropped control over its imperial holdings, rather than pretend theyre part of china
  - statuslover9000 7mo ago
    First off, I consider the post-Mao / starting with Deng era of Chinese government to be the most relevant when considering who they “are” as a country now. However, I’d still maintain that before that, China’s foreign policy was more focused on maintaining territorial sovereignty against the threat of Western imperialism vs. focused on expansion or foreign influence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_foreign_relations_of_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_foreign_relations_o... Meanwhile, the entire territory of the U.S. is predicated on one of history’s largest genocides, and a consistently expansionary foreign policy on top of that.

In what world does China have a non-imperialist foreign policy?

hrn_frs 7mo ago

Historically speaking, he's right. China has never had an expansionist foreign policy.

mobilefriendly 7mo ago
Tibet, the Philippines, and Taiwan would like to have a word, not to mention Chinese military action in support of its North Korea puppet state, and wars with Vietnam and India.
sinuhe69 7mo ago
Are you serious? Don't you know how many wars did China wage? It tried to assimilate Vietnam for 1000 years. The last large scale war against Vietnam was just 1979. In fact, China had started war with all its neighbors, with no exception.
- MiSeRyDeee 7mo ago
  Do me a favor and name one single country didn't have war with any of its neighbor.
dpedu 7mo ago
Nine-dash line?

MiSeRyDeee 7mo ago

In what world does China have a imperialist foreign policy?

cthalupa 7mo ago
The one we live in, where they have control over a wide swathe of land mass through imperialism and have actively resisted relinquishing it? The one we live in, where they are constantly surpassing international law in international waters in the South China Sea? The one we live in, where they are constantly rattling sabers at South Korea and Japan when it comes to military expansion? The one we live in, where they brutally cracked down on Hong Kong when they did not abide by the 50 year one country two systems deal, not even making it half of the way through the agreed period? The one we live in, where there is constant threat to Taiwan? It may have been a lazy post you're responding to, but anyone that is paying attention to this topic enough to talk about it is going to either say 'Of course China is imperialist, the same as every other global power' or take some sort of tankie approach to justify it.
- cwillu 7mo ago
  “One country two systems” is definitionally not imperialism, and given that “One China” is still an internationally recognized thing, neither is Taiwan. “Imperialism” is not a synonym for “morally repugnant government policy”.
  - cthalupa 7mo ago
    I can see the argument for Hong Kong. I don't agree, really, but I can understand it. Under the strictest of definitions, perhaps it isn't. But Taiwan is very obviously a totally separate country no matter what fictions anyone employs. If you are trying to talk about the thin veneer of everyone going "Uh huh, sure, China, yep Taiwan is totally part of you, wink wink, nudge nudge" as somehow making China not imperialist when Taiwan basically lives under the perpetual threat of a Chinese military invasion and having their own democratic form of government overthrown and replaced with the CCP, then... I don't really know what to say. I suppose we could argue about imperialism being more of an economic thing - in which case this all still holds up - China's investments in Africa are effectively the same playbook the US has run out in developing nations for years. The US learned it from prior imperialist nations but belts and roads is nearly a carbon copy of what the US has done in other places. But let's look at what the original poster was actually talking about - saying that China is safe because they don't have a military industrial complex because they're not imperialist. The proper word to use, if we want to get down to the semantics of it all, would be expansionist - but it's still not true. China has the 2nd largest military industrial complex in the world, and the gap is shrinking every day between them and the US. And if you were to look at wartime capacity, where China's dual-use shipyards could be swapped to naval production instead of commercial, a huge portion of that gap disappears immediately.
- mobilefriendly 7mo ago
  You forgot Tibet and the Uyghurs https://worldwithoutgenocide.org/genocides-and-conflicts/genocide-of-the-uyghurs-in-western-china/china-tibet-and-the-uyghurs https://worldwithoutgenocide.org/genocides-and-conflicts/gen...
  - 7mo ago

statuslover9000 7mo ago

For example, China operates 1 foreign military base, in Djibouti. How many do you think the U.S. has in the South China Sea alone? Beyond that, how many people has China killed in foreign military conflicts in the past 40 years? How many foreign governments have they overthrown? Instead of all this, they’ve used their resources not only to become the world’s economic superpower but also to lift 800 million people out of poverty, accounting for 75% of the world’s reduction during the past 4 decades. The U.S. has added 10 million during that same time period.

8note 7mo ago
why use 40 years as the example? its a pretty convenient framing to exclude the foreign governments its toppled. eg. tibet. the government in exile remains the government in exile. youd have some standing if china dropped control over its imperial holdings, rather than pretend theyre part of china
- statuslover9000 7mo ago
  First off, I consider the post-Mao / starting with Deng era of Chinese government to be the most relevant when considering who they “are” as a country now. However, I’d still maintain that before that, China’s foreign policy was more focused on maintaining territorial sovereignty against the threat of Western imperialism vs. focused on expansion or foreign influence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_foreign_relations_of_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_foreign_relations_o... Meanwhile, the entire territory of the U.S. is predicated on one of history’s largest genocides, and a consistently expansionary foreign policy on top of that.