6 ms·

But you also want smart phones, electric cars, and a navy. There needs to be a path towards doing things other than foisting them on people who are out of sight

But you also want smart phones, electric cars, and a navy. There needs to be a path towards doing things other than foisting them on people who are out of sight.

georgemcbay 8mo ago
> But you also want smart phones, electric cars, and a navy. I would like far less of all of these to exist than we currently produce (I use a 5 year old phone, an 11 year old car, and think the US Navy could function just fine with a lot less budget and warships).
- josephcsible 8mo ago
  > I use a 5 year old phone I don't, because I care about security updates, and I don't want to have to choose between a highly degraded battery and giving up waterproofing. > an 11 year old car Crash safety has improved by leaps and bounds in recent years. I suspect you're more likely to be killed in a car accident that you wouldn't be in a new car, than to be killed by one of the industries that California bans. > think the US Navy could function just fine with a lot less budget and warships If a powerful adversary goes to war with us, then we'd want a lot more, and only increasing then would be too late, because we'd lose the war first.
dlev_pika 8mo ago
That’s ok, Texans don’t mind having to drink bottled water
- ixtli 8mo ago
  I lived in Mexico for a while and while I really enjoyed it it’s horrible that you have to fear the tap water. It’s not humane
  - hunterpayne 8mo ago
    I agree but I fail to see how bad water infrastructure that allows poop to get into the water supply in Mexico has anything to do with this topic. Nobody is arguing that you should be able to spew cancer causing chemicals into the air. It is possible to do all these industrial processes responsibly. It just costs more to do it. So either you can allow businesses to do these things with reasonable amounts of regulation locally or you can prevent those businesses (what CA does) and import these products made somewhere where they won't follow your regulations. And since pollution notoriously doesn't honor borders, perhaps its best not to use simplistic scarecrow arguments and instead have a nuanced understanding of the topic. But don't let me stop your partisan hackery, I'm sure you enjoy it.
    - inigyou 8mo ago
      > Nobody is arguing that you should be able to spew cancer causing chemicals into the air. TFA appears to be arguing just that. It lists a prohibition on spewing cancer-causing chemicals into the air, as a ban which needs to be lifted.
    - deleted 8mo ago
      [deleted]
Ifkaluva 8mo ago
What if, hear me out, what if we did these things… in space?!
- nailer 8mo ago
  To be fair there is quite a bit of space there.
- bruce343434 8mo ago
  Assemble a navy in space then just airdrop it through the atmosphere?
WD-42 8mo ago
Texans seem more than happy to host these industries. Let them, they have no public land left to protect anyway. The environment is arguably California’s most valuable asset. May as well preserve it so people continue to want to actually live here.
- encoderer 8mo ago
  This is a self fulfilling profecy. For a long time, it was jobs and the promise of a better future for your family. By killing that all we have is weather.
  - mh- 8mo ago
    And if the last several years are indicative of the trend, wildfire season is now a substantial part of the year.
  - thephyber 8mo ago
    You act as though California is no longer one of the largest populations or one of the largest economies. The “snowball fallacy” is a fallacy because there is no reason California s can’t swing the regulatory pendulum back the other direction if there is too much economy / freedom impacted.
    - jjmarr 8mo ago
      When I took a machining course, the instructor sat in the corner and showed us YouTube videos in Mandarin with English subtitles to teach us the equipment. We are never going to catch up.
      - themaninthedark 8mo ago
        What a myopic attitude. 3 to 4 decades ago anything from China was poor quality and US manufacturing was tight tolerance. When we outsourced, we did the training to get them where they are today and stopped investing in our skills at home. There are still skilled people here who can train and the knowledge is not some sort of eldritch incantation. The main issues with learning is lack of jobs and lack of opportunity to apply skills if you have them.
bilbo0s 8mo ago
But you also want smart phones, electric cars, and a navy This is kind of disingenuous. I mean, not everything used in California, needs to be manufactured in California. Why not manufacture it in New Mexico? Or Arkansas for that matter? What you're implying, is that Wisconsin, Nebraska, Maine, Florida, etc, etc, etc, should all build out the manufacturing base to manufacture things that are used in those states. That's not really how a healthy economy should work. I guess what I'm pointing out is that, we don't need to manufacture smartphones in South Dakota. It's perfectly acceptable to manufacture them in, say, New Jersey, and then ship them to South Dakota. Similarly, we don't need to manufacture everything in California.
- nailer 8mo ago
  > I mean, not everything used in California, needs to be manufactured in California. Not the parent but nobody is implying that. Just that most Californians consume or want these things and thus expect other states to build them.
  - bilbo0s 8mo ago
    Which is no different than any other state.
    - nailer 8mo ago
      No, other states build these things. It it a point specially about California.
      - bilbo0s 7mo ago
        Sure. Everything's built overseas. We all already know that. Why can't things be be built here, in a state other than California? What is the fixation with California? Tennessee or Nebraska would love to build smart phones, or even just the chips for smart phones. What is the reasoning for not building these things in other states?
paxys 8mo ago
Plenty of states and countries are okay with having this stuff in their backyard. Most of them encourage it. Let them build it.
thephyber 8mo ago
Maps of California are dotted with SuperFund sites where these companies left the taxpayers with the bill to clean up their toxic messes. We don’t “foist” these externalities on other people; they choose to hold lower value on a clean environment than regions which regulate pollutants and other negative externalities.
culi 8mo ago
Most of the complaints from this website aren't about things being outright banned. It's mostly stuff where the regulation is so strict that's it's "nearly impossible". But the regulation seems fair to me wrt what's actually required to keep TCE, asbestos, Freon, chloroform, etc out of our soil and water. Companies that are complaining are complaining that they can't treat the environment as an economic externality anymore in California. Therefore the price of all of these goods are being subsidized with our health and our ecosystems' health. I hope more of the world follows California's lead and we eventually have a price of these goods that represents what it actually takes to manufacture them in a fair way

But you also want smart phones, electric cars, and a navy. There needs to be a path towards doing things other than foisting them on people who are out of sight.

georgemcbay 8mo ago

> But you also want smart phones, electric cars, and a navy. I would like far less of all of these to exist than we currently produce (I use a 5 year old phone, an 11 year old car, and think the US Navy could function just fine with a lot less budget and warships).

josephcsible 8mo ago
> I use a 5 year old phone I don't, because I care about security updates, and I don't want to have to choose between a highly degraded battery and giving up waterproofing. > an 11 year old car Crash safety has improved by leaps and bounds in recent years. I suspect you're more likely to be killed in a car accident that you wouldn't be in a new car, than to be killed by one of the industries that California bans. > think the US Navy could function just fine with a lot less budget and warships If a powerful adversary goes to war with us, then we'd want a lot more, and only increasing then would be too late, because we'd lose the war first.

dlev_pika 8mo ago

That’s ok, Texans don’t mind having to drink bottled water

ixtli 8mo ago
I lived in Mexico for a while and while I really enjoyed it it’s horrible that you have to fear the tap water. It’s not humane
- hunterpayne 8mo ago
  I agree but I fail to see how bad water infrastructure that allows poop to get into the water supply in Mexico has anything to do with this topic. Nobody is arguing that you should be able to spew cancer causing chemicals into the air. It is possible to do all these industrial processes responsibly. It just costs more to do it. So either you can allow businesses to do these things with reasonable amounts of regulation locally or you can prevent those businesses (what CA does) and import these products made somewhere where they won't follow your regulations. And since pollution notoriously doesn't honor borders, perhaps its best not to use simplistic scarecrow arguments and instead have a nuanced understanding of the topic. But don't let me stop your partisan hackery, I'm sure you enjoy it.
  - inigyou 8mo ago
    > Nobody is arguing that you should be able to spew cancer causing chemicals into the air. TFA appears to be arguing just that. It lists a prohibition on spewing cancer-causing chemicals into the air, as a ban which needs to be lifted.
  - deleted 8mo ago
    [deleted]

Ifkaluva 8mo ago

What if, hear me out, what if we did these things… in space?!

nailer 8mo ago
To be fair there is quite a bit of space there.
bruce343434 8mo ago
Assemble a navy in space then just airdrop it through the atmosphere?

WD-42 8mo ago

Texans seem more than happy to host these industries. Let them, they have no public land left to protect anyway. The environment is arguably California’s most valuable asset. May as well preserve it so people continue to want to actually live here.

encoderer 8mo ago
This is a self fulfilling profecy. For a long time, it was jobs and the promise of a better future for your family. By killing that all we have is weather.
- mh- 8mo ago
  And if the last several years are indicative of the trend, wildfire season is now a substantial part of the year.
- thephyber 8mo ago
  You act as though California is no longer one of the largest populations or one of the largest economies. The “snowball fallacy” is a fallacy because there is no reason California s can’t swing the regulatory pendulum back the other direction if there is too much economy / freedom impacted.
  - jjmarr 8mo ago
    When I took a machining course, the instructor sat in the corner and showed us YouTube videos in Mandarin with English subtitles to teach us the equipment. We are never going to catch up.
    - themaninthedark 8mo ago
      What a myopic attitude. 3 to 4 decades ago anything from China was poor quality and US manufacturing was tight tolerance. When we outsourced, we did the training to get them where they are today and stopped investing in our skills at home. There are still skilled people here who can train and the knowledge is not some sort of eldritch incantation. The main issues with learning is lack of jobs and lack of opportunity to apply skills if you have them.

bilbo0s 8mo ago

But you also want smart phones, electric cars, and a navy This is kind of disingenuous. I mean, not everything used in California, needs to be manufactured in California. Why not manufacture it in New Mexico? Or Arkansas for that matter? What you're implying, is that Wisconsin, Nebraska, Maine, Florida, etc, etc, etc, should all build out the manufacturing base to manufacture things that are used in those states. That's not really how a healthy economy should work. I guess what I'm pointing out is that, we don't need to manufacture smartphones in South Dakota. It's perfectly acceptable to manufacture them in, say, New Jersey, and then ship them to South Dakota. Similarly, we don't need to manufacture everything in California.

nailer 8mo ago
> I mean, not everything used in California, needs to be manufactured in California. Not the parent but nobody is implying that. Just that most Californians consume or want these things and thus expect other states to build them.
- bilbo0s 8mo ago
  Which is no different than any other state.
  - nailer 8mo ago
    No, other states build these things. It it a point specially about California.
    - bilbo0s 7mo ago
      Sure. Everything's built overseas. We all already know that. Why can't things be be built here, in a state other than California? What is the fixation with California? Tennessee or Nebraska would love to build smart phones, or even just the chips for smart phones. What is the reasoning for not building these things in other states?

paxys 8mo ago

Plenty of states and countries are okay with having this stuff in their backyard. Most of them encourage it. Let them build it.

thephyber 8mo ago

Maps of California are dotted with SuperFund sites where these companies left the taxpayers with the bill to clean up their toxic messes. We don’t “foist” these externalities on other people; they choose to hold lower value on a clean environment than regions which regulate pollutants and other negative externalities.

culi 8mo ago

Most of the complaints from this website aren't about things being outright banned. It's mostly stuff where the regulation is so strict that's it's "nearly impossible". But the regulation seems fair to me wrt what's actually required to keep TCE, asbestos, Freon, chloroform, etc out of our soil and water. Companies that are complaining are complaining that they can't treat the environment as an economic externality anymore in California. Therefore the price of all of these goods are being subsidized with our health and our ecosystems' health. I hope more of the world follows California's lead and we eventually have a price of these goods that represents what it actually takes to manufacture them in a fair way