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> Oops, said the quiet part out loud that it’s all about money. “I mean, if all of our competitors are kicking puppies in the face, it doesn’t make sense for us

by watwut 9mo ago

> Oops, said the quiet part out loud that it’s all about money. “I mean, if all of our competitors are kicking puppies in the face, it doesn’t make sense for us to not do it too. Maybe we’ll also kick kittens while we’re at it”. I mean, yes, that is actually how world works. That is why we need safety, environmental and other anti-fraud regulations. Because without them, competition makes it so that every successful company will fraud, hurt and harm. Those who wont will be taken over by those who do.

rco8786 9mo ago
Yes, this. It's unfortunate that anthropic dropped this and it's also exactly how the system is supposed to work. Companies don't regulate themselves, the government regulates the companies. Now, you may notice that the government is also choosing not to regulate these companies...which is another matter altogether.
- ozmodiar 9mo ago
  It's so much worse than that. The government actively encourages a lack of business ethics. Heck, it started the term with a crypto rug pull. Money continues to funnel upward to all the worst players, and watchdogs are being targeted and destroyed. Even if you get new people in power, you're going to find the upper echelons completely full of outlandishly wealthy, morally bankrupt individuals that are very politically active. And now they have access to all of our communications and an AI to sift through it looking for dissent (or to spark its own). I guess this is the end game of "move fast and break things." The situation was never good, but it continues to get worse at an alarming rate.
  - mschuster91 9mo ago
    > Heck, it started the term with a crypto rug pull If you ask me... that wasn't a rug pull, at least not in the intent - it more was a way for foreign actors to funnel money directly to Trump and his family without any trace.
    - lupire 9mo ago
      Cryptocurrency is the most traceable money in the world. Cryptocurrency is for implusible deniability, not untraceability.
- bumby 9mo ago
  There is plenty of precedent that companies are expected to regulate themselves. If you are in the US and perform an engineering role without a license or without working under someone with a license, it’s because of an “industrial exemption.” The premise is that companies have enough standards and processes in place to mitigate that risk. However, there is also plenty of evidence that this setup may no longer work. It seems like the norm has shifted, where companies no longer think it’s their duty to manage risk, only to chase $$$. When coupled with anti-government rhetoric, it effectively socializes the risk to the public but not the profits.
  - lupire 9mo ago
    Am exemption from PE stamping (misguided as it maybe) does not mean unregulated. There are still regulations on designs and builds.
    - bumby 9mo ago
      True to an extent, but those regulations tend to downstream of bad things happening. The exemption means “self-regulation” which is what the OP was speaking to. There are industrial standards, for example, but that’s not a governing body. You can create a design that goes against a standard and there’s nothing to stop you from releasing it to the public. The same can’t be said for those who require licenses and stamped designs. There’s also no explicit individual ethics codes in exempted industries. In contrast, a stamped design is saying the design adheres to good standards. Apropos to HN, somebody could write safety critical software with emergency braking delays because of nuisance alarms and put it on the street without any licensed engineer taking responsibility for it. The governance only comes after an accident and an NTHSB investigation.
  - rco8786 9mo ago
    The entire system you just described is government regulation. > without a license A government issued license. > it’s because of an “industrial exemption.” A government allowed exemption. Etc. Agree with your second paragraph.
    - 9mo ago
- bigbadfeline 9mo ago
  > anthropic dropped this and it's also exactly how the system is supposed to work. Companies don't regulate themselves, the government regulates the companies. In this case, it's exactly how it's NOT supposed to work because there's no government regulation concerning the issue. It would be bad looks to have regulation that mandates LESS safety thus the issue was forced on commercial grounds. I called it yesterday, there was never any doubt in my mind how this would end, and it did in less than 24 hours: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47144609 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47144609
  - rco8786 9mo ago
    > because there's no government regulation concerning the issue Yea, see the next sentence in my post :-/
latexr 9mo ago
> I mean, yes, that is actually how world works. And soon enough, it won’t work at all because of it. > Those who wont will be taken over by those who do. And if you compromise on your core values because of money, they weren’t core values to begin with¹. “I want to be ethical but if I am I won’t get to be a billionaire” isn’t an excuse. We shouldn’t just shrug our shoulders at what we see as wrong because “everybody does it” or “that’s just business” or “that’s life”. Complacency and apologists are how a bad system remains bad. https://www.newyorker.com/cartoon/a16995 https://www.newyorker.com/cartoon/a16995 ¹ I’m willing to give leeway to individuals. You can believe stealing is wrong but if you’re desperate and steal a loaf of bread to feed your kid, there’s nuance. A VC-backed company is something entirely different.
freejazz 9mo ago
Anthropic posits itself as a public benefit corp

by watwut 9mo ago

rco8786 9mo ago

Yes, this. It's unfortunate that anthropic dropped this and it's also exactly how the system is supposed to work. Companies don't regulate themselves, the government regulates the companies. Now, you may notice that the government is also choosing not to regulate these companies...which is another matter altogether.

ozmodiar 9mo ago
It's so much worse than that. The government actively encourages a lack of business ethics. Heck, it started the term with a crypto rug pull. Money continues to funnel upward to all the worst players, and watchdogs are being targeted and destroyed. Even if you get new people in power, you're going to find the upper echelons completely full of outlandishly wealthy, morally bankrupt individuals that are very politically active. And now they have access to all of our communications and an AI to sift through it looking for dissent (or to spark its own). I guess this is the end game of "move fast and break things." The situation was never good, but it continues to get worse at an alarming rate.
- mschuster91 9mo ago
  > Heck, it started the term with a crypto rug pull If you ask me... that wasn't a rug pull, at least not in the intent - it more was a way for foreign actors to funnel money directly to Trump and his family without any trace.
  - lupire 9mo ago
    Cryptocurrency is the most traceable money in the world. Cryptocurrency is for implusible deniability, not untraceability.
bumby 9mo ago
There is plenty of precedent that companies are expected to regulate themselves. If you are in the US and perform an engineering role without a license or without working under someone with a license, it’s because of an “industrial exemption.” The premise is that companies have enough standards and processes in place to mitigate that risk. However, there is also plenty of evidence that this setup may no longer work. It seems like the norm has shifted, where companies no longer think it’s their duty to manage risk, only to chase $$$. When coupled with anti-government rhetoric, it effectively socializes the risk to the public but not the profits.
- lupire 9mo ago
  Am exemption from PE stamping (misguided as it maybe) does not mean unregulated. There are still regulations on designs and builds.
  - bumby 9mo ago
    True to an extent, but those regulations tend to downstream of bad things happening. The exemption means “self-regulation” which is what the OP was speaking to. There are industrial standards, for example, but that’s not a governing body. You can create a design that goes against a standard and there’s nothing to stop you from releasing it to the public. The same can’t be said for those who require licenses and stamped designs. There’s also no explicit individual ethics codes in exempted industries. In contrast, a stamped design is saying the design adheres to good standards. Apropos to HN, somebody could write safety critical software with emergency braking delays because of nuisance alarms and put it on the street without any licensed engineer taking responsibility for it. The governance only comes after an accident and an NTHSB investigation.
- rco8786 9mo ago
  The entire system you just described is government regulation. > without a license A government issued license. > it’s because of an “industrial exemption.” A government allowed exemption. Etc. Agree with your second paragraph.
  - 9mo ago
bigbadfeline 9mo ago
> anthropic dropped this and it's also exactly how the system is supposed to work. Companies don't regulate themselves, the government regulates the companies. In this case, it's exactly how it's NOT supposed to work because there's no government regulation concerning the issue. It would be bad looks to have regulation that mandates LESS safety thus the issue was forced on commercial grounds. I called it yesterday, there was never any doubt in my mind how this would end, and it did in less than 24 hours: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47144609 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47144609
- rco8786 9mo ago
  > because there's no government regulation concerning the issue Yea, see the next sentence in my post :-/

latexr 9mo ago

> I mean, yes, that is actually how world works. And soon enough, it won’t work at all because of it. > Those who wont will be taken over by those who do. And if you compromise on your core values because of money, they weren’t core values to begin with¹. “I want to be ethical but if I am I won’t get to be a billionaire” isn’t an excuse. We shouldn’t just shrug our shoulders at what we see as wrong because “everybody does it” or “that’s just business” or “that’s life”. Complacency and apologists are how a bad system remains bad. https://www.newyorker.com/cartoon/a16995 https://www.newyorker.com/cartoon/a16995 ¹ I’m willing to give leeway to individuals. You can believe stealing is wrong but if you’re desperate and steal a loaf of bread to feed your kid, there’s nuance. A VC-backed company is something entirely different.

freejazz 9mo ago

Anthropic posits itself as a public benefit corp