4 ms·

Then you create a new metric, you don't just throw your hands up and say, "well, I guess this stuff just can't be measured!"

saraid216 14y ago
Believe it or not, this happens on a regular basis. You never hear about it, though, because standardized testing is our current gold standard and people refuse to use something else.
seanmcdirmid 14y ago
In science, no metric is better than a bad misleading metric, definitely.
- Locke1689 14y ago
  It's not science if there's no metric. If your hypothesis can't be falsified there's no scientific method. I'm not sure what you're advocating, but it seems to be wish-based education.
  - seanmcdirmid 14y ago
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/post/why-faith-in-standardized-testing-industry-is-misplaced/2011/04/10/AFXIkSHD_blog.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/post/why-fa...
  - wpietri 14y ago
    Do you really think there are only two modes of thought? Pure science and wish fulfillment? That would explain why you'd cling to cargo-cult science rather than admit that the current use of standardized testing is not scientific in any way.
wpietri 14y ago
Great! Then do it. Tell me the correct metric for measuring software developers. We'll use it to hire and fire them, to decide their pay, to compare divisions of a company, and so on. Do that successfully, and I'll happily give you a good metric for teachers.
- Locke1689 14y ago
  Where do you work that you aren't graded on a metric? The places I have worked have all emphasized goal-based metrics. The software developer lays out what they think their responsibilities should be and how they'll be measured on them. The manager then reviews the list with the developer and confirms the responsibilities and the measurements. The developer is then later graded upon his or her ability to meet the predetermined requirements. I think the same thing could be used for teachers. Seems workable to me.
  - wpietri 14y ago
    I am having trouble taking you seriously. You argue in one place that scientific metrics are the only way to evaluate educators. And then here you are arguing that managerial judgment is a serious metric. Even though it's entirely non-numeric, personal, unstandardized, unrepeatable, and unreliable. The same thing was used for teachers: it's called the judgment of their employers. If you're happy with that, then there's no particular need for all the NCLB standardized testing.
    - Locke1689 14y ago
      Where did I say I advocated standardized testing? I simply want a metric. It doesn't have to be standardized, it can be personalized. However, eventually I would like to see us gather some useful information from it. Think of my metric as performing an experiment. We'll try many different methods for the same curriculum, gather the results of those methods (what were the most common goals, what were the most commonly completed goals, what were the most commonly failed goals, etc.). Do you see my point now?

saraid216 14y ago

Believe it or not, this happens on a regular basis. You never hear about it, though, because standardized testing is our current gold standard and people refuse to use something else.

seanmcdirmid 14y ago

In science, no metric is better than a bad misleading metric, definitely.

Locke1689 14y ago
It's not science if there's no metric. If your hypothesis can't be falsified there's no scientific method. I'm not sure what you're advocating, but it seems to be wish-based education.
- seanmcdirmid 14y ago
  http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/post/why-faith-in-standardized-testing-industry-is-misplaced/2011/04/10/AFXIkSHD_blog.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/post/why-fa...
- wpietri 14y ago
  Do you really think there are only two modes of thought? Pure science and wish fulfillment? That would explain why you'd cling to cargo-cult science rather than admit that the current use of standardized testing is not scientific in any way.

wpietri 14y ago

Great! Then do it. Tell me the correct metric for measuring software developers. We'll use it to hire and fire them, to decide their pay, to compare divisions of a company, and so on. Do that successfully, and I'll happily give you a good metric for teachers.

Locke1689 14y ago
Where do you work that you aren't graded on a metric? The places I have worked have all emphasized goal-based metrics. The software developer lays out what they think their responsibilities should be and how they'll be measured on them. The manager then reviews the list with the developer and confirms the responsibilities and the measurements. The developer is then later graded upon his or her ability to meet the predetermined requirements. I think the same thing could be used for teachers. Seems workable to me.
- wpietri 14y ago
  I am having trouble taking you seriously. You argue in one place that scientific metrics are the only way to evaluate educators. And then here you are arguing that managerial judgment is a serious metric. Even though it's entirely non-numeric, personal, unstandardized, unrepeatable, and unreliable. The same thing was used for teachers: it's called the judgment of their employers. If you're happy with that, then there's no particular need for all the NCLB standardized testing.
  - Locke1689 14y ago
    Where did I say I advocated standardized testing? I simply want a metric. It doesn't have to be standardized, it can be personalized. However, eventually I would like to see us gather some useful information from it. Think of my metric as performing an experiment. We'll try many different methods for the same curriculum, gather the results of those methods (what were the most common goals, what were the most commonly completed goals, what were the most commonly failed goals, etc.). Do you see my point now?