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Two things are valid at once: - Hamas is a terrorist organization that planned and executed a mass terror campaign, fully knowing and hoping for the reaction.
by troupo 8mo ago
Two things are valid at once:
- Hamas is a terrorist organization that planned and executed a mass terror campaign, fully knowing and hoping for the reaction. And boasting about it continuously and repeatedly.
- Israel's response was hasty, unplanned, purely driven by emotion at the beginning, and it quickly grew beyond any reason in the next weeks.
- ceejayoz 8mo agoI am entirely behind this take.
- guerrilla 8mo agoYou didn't actually address the actual point. Israel and it's defenders have been lying about the death toll this entire time and Hamas was not. > - Israel's response was hasty, unplanned, purely driven by emotion at the beginning, and it quickly grew beyond any reason in the next weeks. This is also an extreme understatement. It's literally a genocide.
- troupo 8mo ago[flagged]
- guerrilla 8mo agoThe evidence that their numbers were accurate was just presented to you in this very thread.
- cholantesh 8mo agoI take it that literally every NGO in this space and genocide scholars are all in on the lie?
- yosamino 8mo agohere you go: > The Israel Defense Forces believes that the Hamas-run health ministry’s death toll from the war in the Gaza Strip has been largely accurate, a senior Israeli military official acknowledged on Thursday. https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-believes-70000-gazans-killed-in-war-as-claimed-by-hamas/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-believes-70000-gazans-kill... IDF claims 2/3 to 3/4 of killed are civilians. Now add in that around half of the population of Gaza is under 18 and also that half the population is female. I know that I will not convince you, you are a person who thinks "lol" is adequate terminology when discussing the killing of humans, but you also don't get to lie about things on the internet that even the party you support does not lie about. Please try and adhere to the standard of conversation that all of us on HN are trying have to elevate our discussion. Read it here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- bdhe 8mo ago> and it quickly grew beyond any reason Why did it quickly grow?
- troupo 8mo agoBecause of literally years of terrorist acts from Hamas? Because the action initially had overwhelming public support? Because, as any military action without proper planning, they promised a quick victory and had no plans beyond "bomb, bomb, bomb"? And had no plans for "what do we do if we don't succeed"? For an exactly same "military action with no planning but a lot of bravado" scenario see Russia's invasion into Ukraine.
- baq 8mo agoConsider the possibility that “bomb bomb bomb” was the entire and only point of the exercise.
- sophacles 8mo agoBecause there were children to starve. Brown children.
- yoavm 8mo agoMore than half of the Israeli Jews are "brown people" from the neighboring Arab countries.
- tdeck 8mo agoThe correct answer is: because the Biden administration told them there were no red lines. Israel is completely dependent on the US, Reagan picked up the phone and got them to stop bombing Lebanon in 1982. As Israel continued to ramp up the atrocities, they discovered that nothing would cause them to lose patronage from the US.
- baq 8mo ago[flagged]
- abdelhousni 8mo agoYou forgot eighty years of occupation, cultural , economical and ethnical cleansing of the local indigenous people called Palestinians with help of US and Western countries mainly.
- slg 8mo ago>the local indigenous people called Palestinians While you have a valid point overall, I always hate this specific phrasing because it's either ignorant of history or implies there is a statute of limitations on being indigenous. And if it is the latter, you're actively being counterproductive to the cause because that is telling the Israelis that the land will be morally theirs if they can hold it for enough generations thereby encouraging continued occupation.
- pojzon 8mo agoThis will be the case tho. US big brother will make sure to protect its little “older” brother. Hilarious as it sounds.
- echoangle 8mo ago> implies there is a statute of limitations on being indigenous. Is there not? I’m pretty sure every tribe that’s considered indigenous now at any place has replaced some other group that lived there before them.
- defrost 8mo agoNot clear, and unlikely in Australia. * https://mgnsw.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/map_col_highres.jpg https://mgnsw.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/map_col_high... * https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2016-09-22/world-first-study-reveals-rich-history-of-aboriginal-australians/7858376 https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2016-09-22/world-first-s... This recent genetic based view replaces the "gut feeling" view akin to yours that was long pushed by Quadrant et al.
- 8mo ago
- slg 8mo agoIsrael's response was very similar to the US's response to 9/11. 3,000 Americans were killed by terrorists (a smaller percentage of the population than Israelis killed on 10/7) and as a response the US started two wars killing at least 100 times as many Afghans and Iraqis (there are lots of debates about the total casualties there too just like Gaza). This is not a defense of Israel, just a fact that seemingly is never part of the conversation that I think can help people better understand why this is happening.
- LightBug1 8mo agoTens of millions protested the US response. Today they still spit to the side when having to say the name George Bush or Tony Blair, among others. You either weren't there, have a bad memory, are watching typically mainstream new sources, or are willfully ignoring the voices that are having that conversation today. Many of the ills today can be traced back to powers grabbed at the time to assist that so-called "war on terror".
- slg 8mo agoI genuinely don't know what distinction you're trying to make here. Do you think there aren't equivalent protests in Israel? There were minorities in both countries that opposed these responses from the beginning and those responses generally became more unpopular as time went on just like the men who spearheaded them, but a majority of both countries were initially supportive.
- LightBug1 8mo agoPerhaps I'm wrong, but your initial post reads as if Israel's genocide in Palestine is consistent with historical precedent such as the Iraq war when facing similar national traumas. I'm suggesting that many of us are disgusted now by Israel's genocide, land theft, and murder ... just as millions of us were disgusted by the Iraq war.
- slg 8mo ago
- TheOtherHobbes 8mo agoHamas is a terror organisation funded, and quite possibly created, by far-right nationalist elements in the Israeli government to weaken the Palestinian authority and create a pretext for the occupation of Gaza. Netanyahu is on the record funnelling money through Qatar. He said it was for "humanitarian aid" - which would be more credible if it wasn't such an extraordinary and unusual outbreak of concern for Palestinian wellbeing. The occupation is straight out genocide, labelled as such by many Israeli scholars, as well as most of Rest of World. This level of barbarism and entitlement has no place on a civilised planet.
- tartoran 8mo agoWe should stop using this term terror/terrorist, it's lost any meaning. If Hamas are terrorists because they're terrorizing Israeli population then so are Israelis' IDF or whatever force kills other country's population. And the list extends beyond that. To paint a resisting force/army as terrorists is just charged language to emotionally manipulate and pollute discourse. It would be more useful to put in balance what each side is fighting for.
- km3r 8mo agoTerrorism has a simple definition: using force against civilian life to further ones goals. Target a music festival with no military value: terrorism. Blow up a building because hamas has a tunnel under there: not terrorism. If the military value gained is disproportionate to the civilian cost, it is a war crime. But still not terrorism.
- tartoran 8mo ago> Terrorism has a simple definition: using force against civilian life to further ones goals. Not disagreeing with the definition but this is what both sides have been doing. Look, blowing up aid workers, which is in question in this article, is also terrorism. Killing unarmed civilians, kids, etc is also terrorist. Also if you you use your definition for what Israel has been doing in the last 70-80 years it makes them terrorists as well, the word is simply meaningless at this point.
- throwaway27448 8mo agoYou can call hamas whatever you'd like, but it's certainly not hamas doing most of the terrorizing in palestine....
- tw1984 8mo ago> and it quickly grew beyond any reason in the next weeks. you still refuse to call it a crime against humanity? shame on you.