5 ms·

Take a look at the recently released questions from the 2012 california math standardized tests. Looks like math, not memorization to me. Here is grade 7: http

by NoPiece 14y ago

Take a look at the recently released questions from the 2012 california math standardized tests. Looks like math, not memorization to me. Here is grade 7: http://www.cde.ca.gov/ta/tg/sr/documents/cstrtqmath7.pdf http://www.cde.ca.gov/ta/tg/sr/documents/cstrtqmath7.pdf Here is algebra: http://www.cde.ca.gov/ta/tg/sr/documents/cstrtqalgebra.pdf http://www.cde.ca.gov/ta/tg/sr/documents/cstrtqalgebra.pdf

debacle 14y ago
Now show me the same test from Alabama, or North Carolina. Chances are it's not of the same quality. California actually has a relatively good educational system, compared to the rest of the country.
- danielweber 14y ago
  Grade 7 NC math test looks pretty similar to the California test. http://www.ncpublicschools.org/docs/accountability/testing/releasedforms/grade7mathreleased.pdf http://www.ncpublicschools.org/docs/accountability/testing/r... And I'm teaching someone grade 7 math in North Carolina, so this is something I care about a lot. There's not a whole lot of secret sauce in a multiple-choice test. Yes, you can do them well or you can do them poorly. But even if you were to assume that California has super-awesome math tests, it would be pretty easy to duplicate them elsewhere.
- greedo 14y ago
  The "relatively" qualifier leaves a lot of wiggle room, but how are you comparing the educational system?
betterunix 14y ago
Looks like memorization to me. Looks like the questions are formulaic, and that students are expected to memorize both the formulas needed to answer the questions and the formula that the question itself follows. Sure, a student who actually understands the material will pass the test; but a student who does not actually understand the material can pass too, and will have an easier time doing so. If you accept the notion that computer programming is math, then these tests are about math: you could write a computer program that uses some basic pattern matching and symbolic manipulation to pass those tests.
- NoPiece 14y ago
  I disagree that using memorized formulas to solve math problems isn't meaningful learning. But granting you that, I'd argue that a student who has memorized the formulas and can apply them to that test and get correct answers is a success story. That's better than most people, and enough of a tool to make math an asset for that person in life. Students who conceptually get it, and those who have just "memorized" will do well on atest. The test will help identifying the students who can do neither, and the teachers who are underperforming, which is the real problem.
  - chii 14y ago
    > I'd argue that a student who has memorized the formulas and can apply them to that test and get correct answers is a success story. but what is the goal here? I assume the goal is to teach that person how to notice a situation in real life, and use the knowledge learned at school to cope with that situation. Does rote learning actually help for such a goal? I argue that it _might_, but only if the situation "looks" similar to one of the pre-prepared situations that the student has studied. Those who have grasped the concept, and is able to gain deep understanding of fundamental principles, will be much better prepared for that eventual situation mentioned above. And if i was an employer, I'd want to hire that person, instead of the one who learnt by rote. Now, granted, there isn't really an easy way to distinguish between the two above. Which is why the standard test is used - its the best we've got. But if the teaching method is allowed to be influenced by these standarized tests such that the student, instead of gaining a deep understanding, is relegated to just rote learning, he/she will never really be able to apply what they've learnt to situations they've never encountered before, and thus, the goal is not fullfilled.

by NoPiece 14y ago

debacle 14y ago

Now show me the same test from Alabama, or North Carolina. Chances are it's not of the same quality. California actually has a relatively good educational system, compared to the rest of the country.

danielweber 14y ago
Grade 7 NC math test looks pretty similar to the California test. http://www.ncpublicschools.org/docs/accountability/testing/releasedforms/grade7mathreleased.pdf http://www.ncpublicschools.org/docs/accountability/testing/r... And I'm teaching someone grade 7 math in North Carolina, so this is something I care about a lot. There's not a whole lot of secret sauce in a multiple-choice test. Yes, you can do them well or you can do them poorly. But even if you were to assume that California has super-awesome math tests, it would be pretty easy to duplicate them elsewhere.
greedo 14y ago
The "relatively" qualifier leaves a lot of wiggle room, but how are you comparing the educational system?

betterunix 14y ago

Looks like memorization to me. Looks like the questions are formulaic, and that students are expected to memorize both the formulas needed to answer the questions and the formula that the question itself follows. Sure, a student who actually understands the material will pass the test; but a student who does not actually understand the material can pass too, and will have an easier time doing so. If you accept the notion that computer programming is math, then these tests are about math: you could write a computer program that uses some basic pattern matching and symbolic manipulation to pass those tests.

NoPiece 14y ago
I disagree that using memorized formulas to solve math problems isn't meaningful learning. But granting you that, I'd argue that a student who has memorized the formulas and can apply them to that test and get correct answers is a success story. That's better than most people, and enough of a tool to make math an asset for that person in life. Students who conceptually get it, and those who have just "memorized" will do well on atest. The test will help identifying the students who can do neither, and the teachers who are underperforming, which is the real problem.
- chii 14y ago
  > I'd argue that a student who has memorized the formulas and can apply them to that test and get correct answers is a success story. but what is the goal here? I assume the goal is to teach that person how to notice a situation in real life, and use the knowledge learned at school to cope with that situation. Does rote learning actually help for such a goal? I argue that it _might_, but only if the situation "looks" similar to one of the pre-prepared situations that the student has studied. Those who have grasped the concept, and is able to gain deep understanding of fundamental principles, will be much better prepared for that eventual situation mentioned above. And if i was an employer, I'd want to hire that person, instead of the one who learnt by rote. Now, granted, there isn't really an easy way to distinguish between the two above. Which is why the standard test is used - its the best we've got. But if the teaching method is allowed to be influenced by these standarized tests such that the student, instead of gaining a deep understanding, is relegated to just rote learning, he/she will never really be able to apply what they've learnt to situations they've never encountered before, and thus, the goal is not fullfilled.