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> We previously explored Swift, but the C++ interop never quite got there, and platform support outside the Apple ecosystem was limited. Why was there ever any

> We previously explored Swift, but the C++ interop never quite got there, and platform support outside the Apple ecosystem was limited. Why was there ever any expectation for Swift having good platform support outside Apple? This should have been (and was to me) already obvious when they originally announced moving to Swift.

adastra22 9mo ago
Apple’s own marketing speak has Swift as a cross platform language. Just like, I suppose, C# is a cross platform language. Apple puts zero resources into making that claim reality, however.
- hocuspocus 9mo ago
  Apple actually did put some resources behind it, the toolchain is reasonably pleasant to use outside macOS and Xcode, they have people building an ecosystem in the Swift Server Workgroup, and arguably some recent language design decisions don't seem to be purely motivated by desktop/mobile usage. But in the end I can't help but feel Swift has become an absolute beast of a multi-paradigm language with even worse compile times than Rust or C++ for dubious ergonomics gains.
  - adastra22 9mo ago
    A language is more than a compiler. All of the Swift frameworks you would need to do anything actually useful or interesting in the language are macOS-only. You cannot develop in Swift for Windows/Linux/Android the way that you develop in Swift for macOS/iOS. That matters.
    - hocuspocus 9mo ago
      You don't need to convince me that Swift is poorly positioned there, but if you only care about server side (or possibly CLI) apps, the usable ecosystem on Linux isn't too shabby. Does it make sense compared to C#, Go, Rust or a JVM language? I don't know, but it's there, and Apple put some resources behind the initiative.
      - adastra22 9mo ago
        I think it is comparable to C#, at least C# a decade or more ago. Back then it was a great language for developing GUI applications on Windows, Unity games, and that's about it. Now there's a blossoming community of cross-platform frameworks, but only because Microsoft invested in making those first-class. Apple hasn't been putting that effort into Swift.
        pjmlp 9mo ago
        Microsoft cross platform effort always pushed forward Web development and distributed systems, hardly "that's about it". And if you mean before the whole .NET Core rewrite, many big corp server applications were already written in .NET, products like SharePoint, Sitecore, Optimizely, Dynamics 365, Four51,.... and plenty of server infrastructure for XBox and Windows games.
  - shantara 9mo ago
    Was it Apple, or community driven projects?
- hypeatei 9mo ago
  > Just like, I suppose, C# Have you actually used .NET on Linux/macOS? I have (both at home and work) and there isn't anything that made me think it was neglected on those platforms. Everything just works™
  - adastra22 9mo ago
    It didn't use to be that way, for a very long time.
    - Fervicus 9mo ago
      When it wasn't that way, they never had any marketing speak that suggested that though?
    - vips7L 9mo ago
      It's been 10 years of it running on Linux.
      - Kapendev 9mo ago
        People here need time to notice XD
    - GoblinSlayer 9mo ago
      What didn't work and when?
deleted 9mo ago
[deleted]
oblio 9mo ago
Join any Swift discussion here and you'll notice that Any Day Now™ Swift will be an awesome cross platform programming language[1]. Just like Objective C was :-))) [1] Swift was first created in 2010, 16 years ago and officially launched in 2014, 12 years ago, by a huge multi-billion dollar corporation. The same corporation has launched hundreds of products and services in the same time period. If they really wanted Swift to be cross platform at a competitive level (Java, .Net, Python, JS, etc), they would have done it by now.

adastra22 9mo ago

Apple’s own marketing speak has Swift as a cross platform language. Just like, I suppose, C# is a cross platform language. Apple puts zero resources into making that claim reality, however.

hocuspocus 9mo ago
Apple actually did put some resources behind it, the toolchain is reasonably pleasant to use outside macOS and Xcode, they have people building an ecosystem in the Swift Server Workgroup, and arguably some recent language design decisions don't seem to be purely motivated by desktop/mobile usage. But in the end I can't help but feel Swift has become an absolute beast of a multi-paradigm language with even worse compile times than Rust or C++ for dubious ergonomics gains.
- adastra22 9mo ago
  A language is more than a compiler. All of the Swift frameworks you would need to do anything actually useful or interesting in the language are macOS-only. You cannot develop in Swift for Windows/Linux/Android the way that you develop in Swift for macOS/iOS. That matters.
  - hocuspocus 9mo ago
    You don't need to convince me that Swift is poorly positioned there, but if you only care about server side (or possibly CLI) apps, the usable ecosystem on Linux isn't too shabby. Does it make sense compared to C#, Go, Rust or a JVM language? I don't know, but it's there, and Apple put some resources behind the initiative.
    - adastra22 9mo ago
      I think it is comparable to C#, at least C# a decade or more ago. Back then it was a great language for developing GUI applications on Windows, Unity games, and that's about it. Now there's a blossoming community of cross-platform frameworks, but only because Microsoft invested in making those first-class. Apple hasn't been putting that effort into Swift.
      - pjmlp 9mo ago
        Microsoft cross platform effort always pushed forward Web development and distributed systems, hardly "that's about it". And if you mean before the whole .NET Core rewrite, many big corp server applications were already written in .NET, products like SharePoint, Sitecore, Optimizely, Dynamics 365, Four51,.... and plenty of server infrastructure for XBox and Windows games.
- shantara 9mo ago
  Was it Apple, or community driven projects?
hypeatei 9mo ago
> Just like, I suppose, C# Have you actually used .NET on Linux/macOS? I have (both at home and work) and there isn't anything that made me think it was neglected on those platforms. Everything just works™
- adastra22 9mo ago
  It didn't use to be that way, for a very long time.
  - Fervicus 9mo ago
    When it wasn't that way, they never had any marketing speak that suggested that though?
  - vips7L 9mo ago
    It's been 10 years of it running on Linux.
    - Kapendev 9mo ago
      People here need time to notice XD
  - GoblinSlayer 9mo ago
    What didn't work and when?

deleted 9mo ago

[deleted]

oblio 9mo ago

Join any Swift discussion here and you'll notice that Any Day Now™ Swift will be an awesome cross platform programming language[1]. Just like Objective C was :-))) [1] Swift was first created in 2010, 16 years ago and officially launched in 2014, 12 years ago, by a huge multi-billion dollar corporation. The same corporation has launched hundreds of products and services in the same time period. If they really wanted Swift to be cross platform at a competitive level (Java, .Net, Python, JS, etc), they would have done it by now.