7 ms·

> In order for the Romo, or really any modern autonomous vacuum, to function it needs to constantly collect visual data from the building it is operating in. I

> In order for the Romo, or really any modern autonomous vacuum, to function it needs to constantly collect visual data from the building it is operating in. I specifically bought one without a camera or mic.

sverhagen 8mo ago
How do you know? For sure, I mean?
- brookst 8mo ago
  I mean your coffee maker could be a one-off spy device with nation-state backing. But it seems unlikely.
  - dylan604 8mo ago
    phew, yet another reason it pays off to not be a coffee drinker.
    - Tempest1981 8mo ago
      :) I'm sticking with my Aeropress
      - Marsymars 8mo ago
        I'm sitting here drinking an Aeropress-made coffee as I type this, but thinking about how the kettle I used to boil the water is wifi-connected. (Although the smarts are limited to firmware updates, there's no control of the kettle or useful data collected from the kettle.)
        iamtedd 8mo ago
        A kettle needs firmware updates?
        dylan604 8mo ago
        A kettle needs firmware?
        Marsymars 8mo ago
        Some software features are actually quite nice on kettles! e.g. Mine has adjustable altitude calibration which simplifies things that are temperature-sensitive if you live somewhere with a boiling point notably below 100°: https://www.precisekettlepicks.blog/blog/buying-guides-by-use-case-budget/altitude-kettle-science-precise-temp-high/ https://www.precisekettlepicks.blog/blog/buying-guides-by-us...
        Marsymars 8mo ago
        I'd say "has" firmware updates rather than "needs". You can see release notes: https://help.fellowproducts.com/hc/en-us/articles/9593179929115-What-is-the-current-EKG-firmware-version-and-what-did-it-update https://help.fellowproducts.com/hc/en-us/articles/9593179929...
        ssl-3 8mo ago
        I understand why such a device might have firmware. For instance: The drip coffee maker in my kitchen also has firmware; it is used for things like operating the clock (which I've never set...), starting automatically at a pre-set time, and for turning the hot bits off after an hour or two. It's completely offline; these are just pre-programmed functions that will never change. But I have some questions, if you've got a moment. Why does the kettle's firmware need updating? What inhibits a future firmware update from controlling the kettle and collecting data? How would you or any other owner of this style of kettle know if it had shifted gears? (And remember: Since the kettle has a radio and a network connection, data collection isn't necessarily limited to kettle operations. Deducing location is easy for a motivated party using wifi and/or bluetooth signals in populated areas where others are using wireless technologies; see, for example: https://www.qualcomm.com/internet-of-things/solutions/qualcomm-terrestrial-positioning-service https://www.qualcomm.com/internet-of-things/solutions/qualco... )
        Marsymars 8mo ago
        > Why does the kettle's firmware need updating? What inhibits a future firmware update from controlling the kettle and collecting data? How would you or any other owner of this style of kettle know if it had shifted gears? It's a Fellow EKG Pro kettle. They've got release notes here: https://help.fellowproducts.com/hc/en-us/articles/9593179929115-What-is-the-current-EKG-firmware-version-and-what-did-it-update https://help.fellowproducts.com/hc/en-us/articles/9593179929... Notably, bug fixes to the same features that your drip coffee maker has (clock/scheduling stuff stuff), and the addition of new languages to the UI. > What inhibits a future firmware update from controlling the kettle and collecting data? How would you or any other owner of this style of kettle know if it had shifted gears? I assume these are somewhat rhetorical questions where we both know the answers - I'm not harbouring illusions here - as with any internet-connected software you have to trust the vendor. If it were up to me, I'd prefer a Z-Wave-connected kettle that received its firmware updates via Home Assistant... but fancy pour-over kettles are niche enough that a market for a Z-Wave one simply doesn't exist. As-is, I've got enough trust in Fellow that I'm leaving my kettle connected for firmware updates. Of course, that may change.
        8mo ago
    - debugnik 8mo ago
      Not really, I'd be impressed if my moka could spy on me, at least after the first use.
  - jlarocco 8mo ago
    If Google thought it was okay to hide a microphone, I'm sure less scrutinized companies try to get away with worse. https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-47303077 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-47303077
  - skeeter2020 8mo ago
    if they can build an internet connected coffee maker with mic and camera for 60 bucks that's freakin' amazing!
    - doubled112 8mo ago
      Would it include a cell radio and SIM card? Or are they hoping for an open WiFi network in range?
      - alwa 8mo ago
        Radiate the signal out through its power cord, silly.
    - misnome 8mo ago
      I'm pretty sure they'd be happy to swallow the loss when building a one-off device to specifically target you.
      - blibble 8mo ago
        defeated by walking into a random shop and picking one off the shelf rather than buying it from scamazon
        appletrotter 8mo ago
        Undefeated when they break into your home
        blibble 8mo ago
        at that point the coffee machine is sort of redundant
    - mylifeandtimes 8mo ago
      $17.60 for the internet connected microphone and camera (see parts list below), list of coffee machines for under ($60-$18): https://www.google.com/search?q=coffee+machine+under+%2442 https://www.google.com/search?q=coffee+machine+under+%2442 m5stack camera: $7.10 https://shop.m5stack.com/products/unit-cam-wi-fi-camera-ov2640 https://shop.m5stack.com/products/unit-cam-wi-fi-camera-ov26... m5 stack microphone: $3.50 https://shop.m5stack.com/products/pdm-microphone-unit-spm1423 https://shop.m5stack.com/products/pdm-microphone-unit-spm142... m5stack atom light S3 controller: $7.50 https://shop.m5stack.com/products/atom-lite-esp32-development-kit https://shop.m5stack.com/products/atom-lite-esp32-developmen...
  - soopypoos 8mo ago
    he did say he was trained at the kremlin...
- soopypoos 8mo ago
  I wrapped mine in foil to be safe and now it's fabulous
tgsovlerkhgsel 8mo ago
Are there any like that that would have automatic emptying?
- valicord 8mo ago
  Roborock q revo
  - bdcravens 8mo ago
    The Q Revo series does have a camera and mic.
    - izacus 8mo ago
      They don't, the camera equipped ones are the maxV series. Q Revo has an IR sensor which doesn't transmit that data anywhere.
      - bdcravens 8mo ago
        I had a Q Revo Edge that had a mic (it responded to "Hey Rocky" commands) and I could remotely view my house through the camera. Are you thinking of the S8 line? That's the one with the MaxV model.
        izacus 8mo ago
        No, I'm thinking about the Q Revo line which does not have cameras as I mentioned.
    - valicord 8mo ago
      Only some models
  - arein3 8mo ago
    Ive got a q revo pro, which can dry the mops. Happy with it but note that I dont have carpets, I guess for carpets you need something with more features.
amelius 8mo ago
Does your smartphone have a mic?
- dylan604 8mo ago
  You've brought up such a brilliantly useless point to this discussion. I'm really appreciative of your efforts
- codeulike 8mo ago
  Smartphones at least have some semblance of security, whereas iot devices are a free for all
  - ssl-3 8mo ago
    Do they? I'd like to think that they should have reasonable security with my best interests in mind, but I really have no way of investigating what the baseband is or is not doing.
- fsflover 8mo ago
  Yes, and a hardware kill switch for it.
Marsymars 8mo ago
> In order for the Romo, or really any modern autonomous vacuum, to function it needs to constantly collect visual data from the building it is operating in. IMO the random bouncing of older Roombas was unfairly pilloried. Sure, it didn't look great, but in practice it was effective at cleaning.
skrebbel 8mo ago
My Eufy claims to do all processing locally. I admit I never verified this (eg turn off the wifi while it's running - I should actually). But they were the only Chinese manufacturer that at least bothered to write anything about data locality and privacy in their marketing materials, and that got them my money. Obviously at any point the brand can send a firmware update down the wire that does send a realtime video feed from my home right to Chairman Xi's bedroom. I'm aware of that, but the reality also is that the European/US brands currently don't get anywhere near the Chinese price/quality ratio, and I didn't want to muck about with Valetudo, I'm not courageous enough for that. I'm not super happy about this situation but I am super happy about the robot. It's really very good.
- accelbred 8mo ago
  Isn't Eufy the one that marketed fully local smart cameras that actually just streamed to the cloud unencrypted?
  - bryceacc 8mo ago
    cooooorrect https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/02/ankers-eufy-admits-problems-with-unencrypted-video-access-pledges-overhaul/#:~:text=Camera%20feeds%2C%20when%20activated%2C%20were%20seemingly%20accessible,Player%20(something%20later%20confirmed%20by%20The%20Verge). https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/02/ankers-eufy-admits-p...
    - skrebbel 8mo ago
      that said, this being 2023 and them being properly shamed might be why their site now says it's all local and TÜV certified (which i doubt means much, but still)? like outrage actually forced them to get their act together?
  - skrebbel 8mo ago
    hahahaha srsly i feel like such a dork right now

sverhagen 8mo ago

How do you know? For sure, I mean?

brookst 8mo ago
I mean your coffee maker could be a one-off spy device with nation-state backing. But it seems unlikely.
- dylan604 8mo ago
  phew, yet another reason it pays off to not be a coffee drinker.
  - Tempest1981 8mo ago
    :) I'm sticking with my Aeropress
    - Marsymars 8mo ago
      I'm sitting here drinking an Aeropress-made coffee as I type this, but thinking about how the kettle I used to boil the water is wifi-connected. (Although the smarts are limited to firmware updates, there's no control of the kettle or useful data collected from the kettle.)
      - iamtedd 8mo ago
        A kettle needs firmware updates?
        dylan604 8mo ago
        A kettle needs firmware?
        Marsymars 8mo ago
        Some software features are actually quite nice on kettles! e.g. Mine has adjustable altitude calibration which simplifies things that are temperature-sensitive if you live somewhere with a boiling point notably below 100°: https://www.precisekettlepicks.blog/blog/buying-guides-by-use-case-budget/altitude-kettle-science-precise-temp-high/ https://www.precisekettlepicks.blog/blog/buying-guides-by-us...
        Marsymars 8mo ago
        I'd say "has" firmware updates rather than "needs". You can see release notes: https://help.fellowproducts.com/hc/en-us/articles/9593179929115-What-is-the-current-EKG-firmware-version-and-what-did-it-update https://help.fellowproducts.com/hc/en-us/articles/9593179929...
      - ssl-3 8mo ago
        I understand why such a device might have firmware. For instance: The drip coffee maker in my kitchen also has firmware; it is used for things like operating the clock (which I've never set...), starting automatically at a pre-set time, and for turning the hot bits off after an hour or two. It's completely offline; these are just pre-programmed functions that will never change. But I have some questions, if you've got a moment. Why does the kettle's firmware need updating? What inhibits a future firmware update from controlling the kettle and collecting data? How would you or any other owner of this style of kettle know if it had shifted gears? (And remember: Since the kettle has a radio and a network connection, data collection isn't necessarily limited to kettle operations. Deducing location is easy for a motivated party using wifi and/or bluetooth signals in populated areas where others are using wireless technologies; see, for example: https://www.qualcomm.com/internet-of-things/solutions/qualcomm-terrestrial-positioning-service https://www.qualcomm.com/internet-of-things/solutions/qualco... )
        Marsymars 8mo ago
        > Why does the kettle's firmware need updating? What inhibits a future firmware update from controlling the kettle and collecting data? How would you or any other owner of this style of kettle know if it had shifted gears? It's a Fellow EKG Pro kettle. They've got release notes here: https://help.fellowproducts.com/hc/en-us/articles/9593179929115-What-is-the-current-EKG-firmware-version-and-what-did-it-update https://help.fellowproducts.com/hc/en-us/articles/9593179929... Notably, bug fixes to the same features that your drip coffee maker has (clock/scheduling stuff stuff), and the addition of new languages to the UI. > What inhibits a future firmware update from controlling the kettle and collecting data? How would you or any other owner of this style of kettle know if it had shifted gears? I assume these are somewhat rhetorical questions where we both know the answers - I'm not harbouring illusions here - as with any internet-connected software you have to trust the vendor. If it were up to me, I'd prefer a Z-Wave-connected kettle that received its firmware updates via Home Assistant... but fancy pour-over kettles are niche enough that a market for a Z-Wave one simply doesn't exist. As-is, I've got enough trust in Fellow that I'm leaving my kettle connected for firmware updates. Of course, that may change.
        8mo ago
  - debugnik 8mo ago
    Not really, I'd be impressed if my moka could spy on me, at least after the first use.
- jlarocco 8mo ago
  If Google thought it was okay to hide a microphone, I'm sure less scrutinized companies try to get away with worse. https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-47303077 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-47303077
- skeeter2020 8mo ago
  if they can build an internet connected coffee maker with mic and camera for 60 bucks that's freakin' amazing!
  - doubled112 8mo ago
    Would it include a cell radio and SIM card? Or are they hoping for an open WiFi network in range?
    - alwa 8mo ago
      Radiate the signal out through its power cord, silly.
  - misnome 8mo ago
    I'm pretty sure they'd be happy to swallow the loss when building a one-off device to specifically target you.
    - blibble 8mo ago
      defeated by walking into a random shop and picking one off the shelf rather than buying it from scamazon
      - appletrotter 8mo ago
        Undefeated when they break into your home
        blibble 8mo ago
        at that point the coffee machine is sort of redundant
  - mylifeandtimes 8mo ago
    $17.60 for the internet connected microphone and camera (see parts list below), list of coffee machines for under ($60-$18): https://www.google.com/search?q=coffee+machine+under+%2442 https://www.google.com/search?q=coffee+machine+under+%2442 m5stack camera: $7.10 https://shop.m5stack.com/products/unit-cam-wi-fi-camera-ov2640 https://shop.m5stack.com/products/unit-cam-wi-fi-camera-ov26... m5 stack microphone: $3.50 https://shop.m5stack.com/products/pdm-microphone-unit-spm1423 https://shop.m5stack.com/products/pdm-microphone-unit-spm142... m5stack atom light S3 controller: $7.50 https://shop.m5stack.com/products/atom-lite-esp32-development-kit https://shop.m5stack.com/products/atom-lite-esp32-developmen...
- soopypoos 8mo ago
  he did say he was trained at the kremlin...
soopypoos 8mo ago
I wrapped mine in foil to be safe and now it's fabulous

tgsovlerkhgsel 8mo ago

Are there any like that that would have automatic emptying?

valicord 8mo ago
Roborock q revo
- bdcravens 8mo ago
  The Q Revo series does have a camera and mic.
  - izacus 8mo ago
    They don't, the camera equipped ones are the maxV series. Q Revo has an IR sensor which doesn't transmit that data anywhere.
    - bdcravens 8mo ago
      I had a Q Revo Edge that had a mic (it responded to "Hey Rocky" commands) and I could remotely view my house through the camera. Are you thinking of the S8 line? That's the one with the MaxV model.
      - izacus 8mo ago
        No, I'm thinking about the Q Revo line which does not have cameras as I mentioned.
  - valicord 8mo ago
    Only some models
- arein3 8mo ago
  Ive got a q revo pro, which can dry the mops. Happy with it but note that I dont have carpets, I guess for carpets you need something with more features.

amelius 8mo ago

Does your smartphone have a mic?

dylan604 8mo ago
You've brought up such a brilliantly useless point to this discussion. I'm really appreciative of your efforts
codeulike 8mo ago
Smartphones at least have some semblance of security, whereas iot devices are a free for all
- ssl-3 8mo ago
  Do they? I'd like to think that they should have reasonable security with my best interests in mind, but I really have no way of investigating what the baseband is or is not doing.
fsflover 8mo ago
Yes, and a hardware kill switch for it.

Marsymars 8mo ago

> In order for the Romo, or really any modern autonomous vacuum, to function it needs to constantly collect visual data from the building it is operating in. IMO the random bouncing of older Roombas was unfairly pilloried. Sure, it didn't look great, but in practice it was effective at cleaning.

skrebbel 8mo ago

My Eufy claims to do all processing locally. I admit I never verified this (eg turn off the wifi while it's running - I should actually). But they were the only Chinese manufacturer that at least bothered to write anything about data locality and privacy in their marketing materials, and that got them my money. Obviously at any point the brand can send a firmware update down the wire that does send a realtime video feed from my home right to Chairman Xi's bedroom. I'm aware of that, but the reality also is that the European/US brands currently don't get anywhere near the Chinese price/quality ratio, and I didn't want to muck about with Valetudo, I'm not courageous enough for that. I'm not super happy about this situation but I am super happy about the robot. It's really very good.

accelbred 8mo ago
Isn't Eufy the one that marketed fully local smart cameras that actually just streamed to the cloud unencrypted?
- bryceacc 8mo ago
  cooooorrect https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/02/ankers-eufy-admits-problems-with-unencrypted-video-access-pledges-overhaul/#:~:text=Camera%20feeds%2C%20when%20activated%2C%20were%20seemingly%20accessible,Player%20(something%20later%20confirmed%20by%20The%20Verge). https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/02/ankers-eufy-admits-p...
  - skrebbel 8mo ago
    that said, this being 2023 and them being properly shamed might be why their site now says it's all local and TÜV certified (which i doubt means much, but still)? like outrage actually forced them to get their act together?
- skrebbel 8mo ago
  hahahaha srsly i feel like such a dork right now