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>> In many countries you are only allowed to call yourself a Software Engineer if you actually have a professional title. Which countries are those? Are you al

>> In many countries you are only allowed to call yourself a Software Engineer if you actually have a professional title. Which countries are those? Are you also only allowed to call yourself a Musician if you a Conservatory Degree?

pjmlp 8mo ago
Portugal, Germany, Canada, Switzerland are the ones I am aware of. Software Engineering degrees are certified by the Engineering Order, universities cannot call themselves that just because they feel like it, and any kind of legal binding documents when notarised required the professional validity.
- Betelbuddy 8mo ago
  They regulate the title not the profession.
  - pjmlp 8mo ago
    I mentioned legal signatures for a reason.
    - Betelbuddy 8mo ago
      No Software Engineer in title or in real skills will do such a thing.
      - pjmlp 8mo ago
        Sign project contracts with Eng. and find out when liability comes into play.
- wink 8mo ago
  First of all, hardly anyone cares (default email signatures etc.pp even if the people don't want that - but you said legally bindign, and I think that just usually never happens.). And second, at least in Germany it's also somewhat of a bullshit situation that 80% of the people who do a "normal" Computer Science degree don't have that (Diplom-Informatiker/M.Sc), but the 20% who happen to study at a certain uni in a certain degree (that is mostly related, but not the default Computer Science/Software Engineering one) are/were getting their "Diplom-Ingenieur".
  - kuerbel 8mo ago
    Thanks to Hamburg you can call yourself an Ingenieur with a bachelor of science (German source: https://www.bit01.de/blog/informatiker-ingenieur-titel/ https://www.bit01.de/blog/informatiker-ingenieur-titel/ ... although it's 5 years old now. Should still be valid.)
Teever 8mo ago
Why the glib dismissal when you most certainly live in a country where the use of titles like 'doctor', 'dentist', 'officer' or 'lawyer' is most certainly regulated? This isn't really that exceptional and as someone from a place where not just anyone can call themselves engineer I'm always baffled when people think that it is.
- Betelbuddy 8mo ago
  Your comment completely misses the point of my question. Those countries are regulating the title not the profession. Here is the difference: the Doctors have a liability for their medical practice, the real Engineers meaning those doing Bridges and Buildings that can kill thousands of people if they fall, have a professional obligation and responsability on the outcomes of their designs and implementation. I can guarantee you, no Software Engineer from Portugal to Germany will be willing to guarantee the behavior and fitness for purpose, of any System or Software product they develop :-) As you very well can see, if you bother to read the full details on the Software License disclaimers of any software from any large company. From Microsoft to Oracle, IBM and others. As such those are Software Engineers on title only, what is convenient to be hired for post within Government and similar...
  - pjmlp 8mo ago
    That is the thing software can kill, or destroy lives in presence of bugs. Again, sign any legal documents as engineer, and a court visit might turn into reality.
    - Betelbuddy 8mo ago
      If Oracle, IBM or Microsoft after 50 years, and employing thousands of Software Engineers ...include the standard disclaimers on their Software, I dont think those in title only should make much fuss of the Software Engineer badge...
      - namibj 8mo ago
        Then maybe you shouldn't be allowed to rely on such software not causing utter carnage when you're implementing some infrastructure thing via software? Also note that such warranty disclaiming "fitness for any purpose" is not possible if you sell for money software that you say is for such an infrastructure situation, at least in e.g. Germany. That's not from the license but from the sale though.

pjmlp 8mo ago

Portugal, Germany, Canada, Switzerland are the ones I am aware of. Software Engineering degrees are certified by the Engineering Order, universities cannot call themselves that just because they feel like it, and any kind of legal binding documents when notarised required the professional validity.

Betelbuddy 8mo ago
They regulate the title not the profession.
- pjmlp 8mo ago
  I mentioned legal signatures for a reason.
  - Betelbuddy 8mo ago
    No Software Engineer in title or in real skills will do such a thing.
    - pjmlp 8mo ago
      Sign project contracts with Eng. and find out when liability comes into play.
wink 8mo ago
First of all, hardly anyone cares (default email signatures etc.pp even if the people don't want that - but you said legally bindign, and I think that just usually never happens.). And second, at least in Germany it's also somewhat of a bullshit situation that 80% of the people who do a "normal" Computer Science degree don't have that (Diplom-Informatiker/M.Sc), but the 20% who happen to study at a certain uni in a certain degree (that is mostly related, but not the default Computer Science/Software Engineering one) are/were getting their "Diplom-Ingenieur".
- kuerbel 8mo ago
  Thanks to Hamburg you can call yourself an Ingenieur with a bachelor of science (German source: https://www.bit01.de/blog/informatiker-ingenieur-titel/ https://www.bit01.de/blog/informatiker-ingenieur-titel/ ... although it's 5 years old now. Should still be valid.)

Teever 8mo ago

Why the glib dismissal when you most certainly live in a country where the use of titles like 'doctor', 'dentist', 'officer' or 'lawyer' is most certainly regulated? This isn't really that exceptional and as someone from a place where not just anyone can call themselves engineer I'm always baffled when people think that it is.

Betelbuddy 8mo ago
Your comment completely misses the point of my question. Those countries are regulating the title not the profession. Here is the difference: the Doctors have a liability for their medical practice, the real Engineers meaning those doing Bridges and Buildings that can kill thousands of people if they fall, have a professional obligation and responsability on the outcomes of their designs and implementation. I can guarantee you, no Software Engineer from Portugal to Germany will be willing to guarantee the behavior and fitness for purpose, of any System or Software product they develop :-) As you very well can see, if you bother to read the full details on the Software License disclaimers of any software from any large company. From Microsoft to Oracle, IBM and others. As such those are Software Engineers on title only, what is convenient to be hired for post within Government and similar...
- pjmlp 8mo ago
  That is the thing software can kill, or destroy lives in presence of bugs. Again, sign any legal documents as engineer, and a court visit might turn into reality.
  - Betelbuddy 8mo ago
    If Oracle, IBM or Microsoft after 50 years, and employing thousands of Software Engineers ...include the standard disclaimers on their Software, I dont think those in title only should make much fuss of the Software Engineer badge...
    - namibj 8mo ago
      Then maybe you shouldn't be allowed to rely on such software not causing utter carnage when you're implementing some infrastructure thing via software? Also note that such warranty disclaiming "fitness for any purpose" is not possible if you sell for money software that you say is for such an infrastructure situation, at least in e.g. Germany. That's not from the license but from the sale though.