4 ms·

Take a look at these screenshots: https://libreoffice.en.uptodown.com/mac https://libreoffice.en.uptodown.com/mac It looks ancient, worse than office apps from

by Flavius 8mo ago

Take a look at these screenshots: https://libreoffice.en.uptodown.com/mac https://libreoffice.en.uptodown.com/mac It looks ancient, worse than office apps from 20 years ago.

barnabee 8mo ago
Office apps from 20 years ago looked better than office apps now.
- blackhaz 8mo ago
  And from 32 years ago as well - MS Office 4.0 as an example.
slyfox125 8mo ago
It looks great using Plasma. If the comparison and "problem" is the lack of a "ribbon" menu, etc., then you are missing the whole point of Office alternatives: they are free, open source, but most importantly, they are usable. That is, they do not eschew usability and function for the sake of change, pure aesthetics, or a company's latest foray into some new gimmick. Ultimately, the "classic" approach taken is because many users feel that the classic style is more usable and makes them more productive irrespective of their learned habits of the past 20-30 years.
- mft_ 8mo ago
  It looks awful and undiscoverable on a standard Mint/Cinnamon install. Anyway, the point is surely that if LibreOffice really wants to attract users from Microsoft Office, then it should do everything possible to optimise that transition? Offering the option of a UI mimicking the familiar MS Office layout is not a difficult engineering problem. And if it makes users significantly more likely to switch, it should be a high priority to implement. Honestly, at this stage, thinking of Gimp, FreeCAD, LibreOffice, and Blender, it’s as though there’s a weird group psychology deliberately against offering even decent (let along best-in-class) UIs in the open source world. These are all apps with excellent fundamental underlying engines/tech which are handicapped hugely by their UI/UX. (Yes I know some of these have improved in recent years, but only after far longer without improvements.)
  - jamesnorden 8mo ago
    >Offering the option of a UI mimicking the familiar MS Office layout is not a difficult engineering problem. And if it makes users significantly more likely to switch, it should be a high priority to implement. It's already there. It really feels like such criticisms are from people who haven't used it in 10+ years.
    - mft_ 8mo ago
      Well, if that's the case, I take (that part of) it back and I'll fire up Mint later to explore. Thanks. It wasn't an obvious option when I tried LibreOffice a few weeks ago, but maybe I should have explored further.
    - AnonymousPlanet 8mo ago
      My experience is less than two years old. I have the impression that those who defend it have a UI taste that is stuck in the 2000s. The same people who also point at UIs that are barely usable and ugly from a modern perspective like Windows 2000 and say "this was the pinnacle of UI".
      - roryirvine 8mo ago
        The "Notebookbar" ribbon interface has been there since 2017, and was available even in Debian Stable since 2019. It's not quite identical to MSOffice due to Microsoft's patents, but is pretty close. Perhaps you just didn't spot it in the UI preferences?
      - isicjsjcu 8mo ago
        [dead]
      - abanana 8mo ago
        > UI taste that is stuck in the 2000s > UIs that are barely usable... like Windows 2000 Words fail me. Perhaps it's that well-known psychological effect where people self-report higher productivity when using an interface they find more visually appealing, whereas studying them proves the opposite is true.
- keyringlight 8mo ago
  LibreOffice also has a ribbon toolbars mode, it's 5 seconds to switch if you prefer it under View > User interface.
- gzread 8mo ago
  Microsoft did usability studies on real people to determine the ribbon interface is better. This is back in the days when software companies cared about objectively verifiable results.
  - loloquwowndueo 8mo ago
    Only no, it’s not and everyone reviled it when it came out but we’ve been stuck with it ever since. MS may have done usability studies earlier (say, when they cared about dethroning Lotus 123 and WordPerfect) but that war was long won when the ribbon UI came out, by then they only cared about milking the cash cow.
  - abanana 8mo ago
    No, they did not (or if they did, they didn't publish it). If I'm wrong, please give me some links because I'd genuinely love to see it. Microsoft did those usability studies on the versions of Office that were current before the ribbon. The ribbon followed those studies as their attempt at a solution. A few times over the years I've tried to search for usability studies of the ribbon interface because I've never got on with it myself. I find plenty of others asking the same thing online, and everybody points them to those same earlier studies from before the ribbon, while wrongly telling them it's a study of the ribbon. Those studies are unable to tell us whether or not MS's attempt at a solution actually fixed the problems. I believe the ribbon was a downgrade in usability terms (but people expect it in office suites, purely because it's seen as looking more modern). And I'd love to see real intensive research to tell me whether my belief is right or wrong.
    - oblio 8mo ago
      The studies I can't point you to, but there were lots of blogs by the lead Office UX person at the time, Jensen Harris. https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/archive/blogs/jensenh/ https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/archive/blogs/jensenh/ Unfortunately those blog entries have been destroyed because the images are no longer there. I read all of them, they were at least 6-7 and quite detailed and I remember thinking that the thought process behind the ribbon was very solid. https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/archive/blogs/jensenh/the-why-of-the-new-ui-part-1 https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/archive/blogs/jensenh/the-... https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/archive/blogs/jensenh/ye-olde-museum-of-office-past-why-the-ui-part-2 https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/archive/blogs/jensenh/ye-o... etc - you can find all of them there plus many other related blog entries.
gerdesj 8mo ago
"You are running version 7.0" - why not try some screenshots from this decade? I have version 25.8.4.2 running here. It looks rather better and most importantly offers me the choice of a ribbon or not and many other choices rather than enforcing a single "opinionated" interface.
- Flavius 8mo ago
  What do you mean by version 7.0? I'm running Version: 26.2.0.3 and it still looks dated after I did my best to configure the interface.
  - tialaramex 8mo ago
    The screenshot you linked literally says that "You are running version 7.0 of LibreOffice for the first time"
  - gerdesj 8mo ago
    You say dated and I say useful. Who is "right"? Me: I started off with the likes of Wordperfect and Wordstar, Lotus 123 and Quatro Pro, Harvard Graphics, and rather a lot more and that's just on MS's efforts. I've also taught PageMaker, CorelDraw and a lot more stuff that I have forgotten. I am (probably) rather older than you and that does not make either of us "right" or "wrong". However, I have been an IT trainer on and off for 30 odd years and I have seen how all the differing design paradigms and UI efforts have scarred end users. Have you ever noted how awful all and I mean ALL UIs are generally awful? I'll give you two examples - Apple and KDE, that came up for me recently: Apple tablet or phone: Print something. This is from memory but the UI is so shit it doesn't matter if I get it wrong. Press the rectangle with an up arrow, select a printer, press the word Print (next to the other icon that might do something) KDE: I can't be arsed at this point to bother. There are things that are not intuitive. If LO doesn't work for you then that's fine - buy something that does. For me, I create some horrendously complicated documents and it does work OK and believe me - I know how to stress an application - its my job and has been for some years. I also find it easier to teach people how to use LO as opposed to MSO. That's just me. I'm sure you have some anecdotes of your own.
jamesnorden 8mo ago
Maybe try installing a current version and seeing for yourself, there's multiple UI styles to chose from now, even one that is meant to mimic the MS "ribbon".
yason 8mo ago
That looks exactly like an office app should look like. Basic interface patterns, clear distinctive visual areas and borders, all in the tradition of a classical graphical user interface. And yes, classical GUI more or less peaked in the early 2000's and it has generally been a downhill from there because the irresistible need of the industry for offering "something new" every few years.
- taspeotis 8mo ago
  Excuse me word processors are meant to have a ribbon, backstage view and where in LibreOffice is a sidepanel for me to talk to LibreLM to do agentic editing? Plus if it runs on Android it must support snackbars.
  - doubled112 8mo ago
    What is a snackbar?!
2b3a51 8mo ago
Well 'ancient' to me in the context of computer interaction means punched cards (mechanical punches!) and a card reader, upper case only, so these terms are relative I suppose. I think this is a matter of choice and it is nice that there are choices. As other posters in this little sub-tree have suggested, there are people who value continuity over a period of time.
- 7bit 8mo ago
  > are relative I suppose. > A matter of choice Congratulations on figuring this out. It's not like the commenter you replied to said, it "feels dated" ... Oh no wait, he did.
mikkupikku 8mo ago
Looks like a completely normal office application to me. Do you have an example of what you think they should look like?

by Flavius 8mo ago

Take a look at these screenshots: https://libreoffice.en.uptodown.com/mac https://libreoffice.en.uptodown.com/mac It looks ancient, worse than office apps from 20 years ago.

barnabee 8mo ago

Office apps from 20 years ago looked better than office apps now.

blackhaz 8mo ago
And from 32 years ago as well - MS Office 4.0 as an example.

slyfox125 8mo ago

It looks great using Plasma. If the comparison and "problem" is the lack of a "ribbon" menu, etc., then you are missing the whole point of Office alternatives: they are free, open source, but most importantly, they are usable. That is, they do not eschew usability and function for the sake of change, pure aesthetics, or a company's latest foray into some new gimmick. Ultimately, the "classic" approach taken is because many users feel that the classic style is more usable and makes them more productive irrespective of their learned habits of the past 20-30 years.

mft_ 8mo ago
It looks awful and undiscoverable on a standard Mint/Cinnamon install. Anyway, the point is surely that if LibreOffice really wants to attract users from Microsoft Office, then it should do everything possible to optimise that transition? Offering the option of a UI mimicking the familiar MS Office layout is not a difficult engineering problem. And if it makes users significantly more likely to switch, it should be a high priority to implement. Honestly, at this stage, thinking of Gimp, FreeCAD, LibreOffice, and Blender, it’s as though there’s a weird group psychology deliberately against offering even decent (let along best-in-class) UIs in the open source world. These are all apps with excellent fundamental underlying engines/tech which are handicapped hugely by their UI/UX. (Yes I know some of these have improved in recent years, but only after far longer without improvements.)
- jamesnorden 8mo ago
  >Offering the option of a UI mimicking the familiar MS Office layout is not a difficult engineering problem. And if it makes users significantly more likely to switch, it should be a high priority to implement. It's already there. It really feels like such criticisms are from people who haven't used it in 10+ years.
  - mft_ 8mo ago
    Well, if that's the case, I take (that part of) it back and I'll fire up Mint later to explore. Thanks. It wasn't an obvious option when I tried LibreOffice a few weeks ago, but maybe I should have explored further.
  - AnonymousPlanet 8mo ago
    My experience is less than two years old. I have the impression that those who defend it have a UI taste that is stuck in the 2000s. The same people who also point at UIs that are barely usable and ugly from a modern perspective like Windows 2000 and say "this was the pinnacle of UI".
    - roryirvine 8mo ago
      The "Notebookbar" ribbon interface has been there since 2017, and was available even in Debian Stable since 2019. It's not quite identical to MSOffice due to Microsoft's patents, but is pretty close. Perhaps you just didn't spot it in the UI preferences?
    - isicjsjcu 8mo ago
      [dead]
    - abanana 8mo ago
      > UI taste that is stuck in the 2000s > UIs that are barely usable... like Windows 2000 Words fail me. Perhaps it's that well-known psychological effect where people self-report higher productivity when using an interface they find more visually appealing, whereas studying them proves the opposite is true.
keyringlight 8mo ago
LibreOffice also has a ribbon toolbars mode, it's 5 seconds to switch if you prefer it under View > User interface.
gzread 8mo ago
Microsoft did usability studies on real people to determine the ribbon interface is better. This is back in the days when software companies cared about objectively verifiable results.
- loloquwowndueo 8mo ago
  Only no, it’s not and everyone reviled it when it came out but we’ve been stuck with it ever since. MS may have done usability studies earlier (say, when they cared about dethroning Lotus 123 and WordPerfect) but that war was long won when the ribbon UI came out, by then they only cared about milking the cash cow.
- abanana 8mo ago
  No, they did not (or if they did, they didn't publish it). If I'm wrong, please give me some links because I'd genuinely love to see it. Microsoft did those usability studies on the versions of Office that were current before the ribbon. The ribbon followed those studies as their attempt at a solution. A few times over the years I've tried to search for usability studies of the ribbon interface because I've never got on with it myself. I find plenty of others asking the same thing online, and everybody points them to those same earlier studies from before the ribbon, while wrongly telling them it's a study of the ribbon. Those studies are unable to tell us whether or not MS's attempt at a solution actually fixed the problems. I believe the ribbon was a downgrade in usability terms (but people expect it in office suites, purely because it's seen as looking more modern). And I'd love to see real intensive research to tell me whether my belief is right or wrong.
  - oblio 8mo ago
    The studies I can't point you to, but there were lots of blogs by the lead Office UX person at the time, Jensen Harris. https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/archive/blogs/jensenh/ https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/archive/blogs/jensenh/ Unfortunately those blog entries have been destroyed because the images are no longer there. I read all of them, they were at least 6-7 and quite detailed and I remember thinking that the thought process behind the ribbon was very solid. https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/archive/blogs/jensenh/the-why-of-the-new-ui-part-1 https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/archive/blogs/jensenh/the-... https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/archive/blogs/jensenh/ye-olde-museum-of-office-past-why-the-ui-part-2 https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/archive/blogs/jensenh/ye-o... etc - you can find all of them there plus many other related blog entries.

gerdesj 8mo ago

"You are running version 7.0" - why not try some screenshots from this decade? I have version 25.8.4.2 running here. It looks rather better and most importantly offers me the choice of a ribbon or not and many other choices rather than enforcing a single "opinionated" interface.

Flavius 8mo ago
What do you mean by version 7.0? I'm running Version: 26.2.0.3 and it still looks dated after I did my best to configure the interface.
- tialaramex 8mo ago
  The screenshot you linked literally says that "You are running version 7.0 of LibreOffice for the first time"
- gerdesj 8mo ago
  You say dated and I say useful. Who is "right"? Me: I started off with the likes of Wordperfect and Wordstar, Lotus 123 and Quatro Pro, Harvard Graphics, and rather a lot more and that's just on MS's efforts. I've also taught PageMaker, CorelDraw and a lot more stuff that I have forgotten. I am (probably) rather older than you and that does not make either of us "right" or "wrong". However, I have been an IT trainer on and off for 30 odd years and I have seen how all the differing design paradigms and UI efforts have scarred end users. Have you ever noted how awful all and I mean ALL UIs are generally awful? I'll give you two examples - Apple and KDE, that came up for me recently: Apple tablet or phone: Print something. This is from memory but the UI is so shit it doesn't matter if I get it wrong. Press the rectangle with an up arrow, select a printer, press the word Print (next to the other icon that might do something) KDE: I can't be arsed at this point to bother. There are things that are not intuitive. If LO doesn't work for you then that's fine - buy something that does. For me, I create some horrendously complicated documents and it does work OK and believe me - I know how to stress an application - its my job and has been for some years. I also find it easier to teach people how to use LO as opposed to MSO. That's just me. I'm sure you have some anecdotes of your own.

jamesnorden 8mo ago

Maybe try installing a current version and seeing for yourself, there's multiple UI styles to chose from now, even one that is meant to mimic the MS "ribbon".

yason 8mo ago

That looks exactly like an office app should look like. Basic interface patterns, clear distinctive visual areas and borders, all in the tradition of a classical graphical user interface. And yes, classical GUI more or less peaked in the early 2000's and it has generally been a downhill from there because the irresistible need of the industry for offering "something new" every few years.

taspeotis 8mo ago
Excuse me word processors are meant to have a ribbon, backstage view and where in LibreOffice is a sidepanel for me to talk to LibreLM to do agentic editing? Plus if it runs on Android it must support snackbars.
- doubled112 8mo ago
  What is a snackbar?!

2b3a51 8mo ago

Well 'ancient' to me in the context of computer interaction means punched cards (mechanical punches!) and a card reader, upper case only, so these terms are relative I suppose. I think this is a matter of choice and it is nice that there are choices. As other posters in this little sub-tree have suggested, there are people who value continuity over a period of time.

7bit 8mo ago
> are relative I suppose. > A matter of choice Congratulations on figuring this out. It's not like the commenter you replied to said, it "feels dated" ... Oh no wait, he did.

mikkupikku 8mo ago

Looks like a completely normal office application to me. Do you have an example of what you think they should look like?