4 ms·

Even restricting the mitigation to "students and hobbyists" is bad. I should have the right to have parents, friends or anyone use a "free" store that is not u

Even restricting the mitigation to "students and hobbyists" is bad. I should have the right to have parents, friends or anyone use a "free" store that is not under control of Google if the user and app developer wish so. But also, somehow there should be something done to avoid the monopoly forcing to use the Google services. Like major institutions like bank, gov and co being forced to provide alternatives like a webapp when they provide app tied to the Google play store.

echelon 8mo ago
We deserve web installs without deep settings menu configurations, scare walls, or onerous processes. The EU and every other nation with digital sovereignty concerns need to make this happen to both Apple and Google. These are our devices. The giants are camping.
fragmede 8mo ago
But unfortunately, it turns out that some people you interact with aren't actually your friend. That guy that seems totally legit and just wants your sister to install his fun little game/app that he wrote is actually trying to get her to install an app that's going to track your location and read all your messages and copy all your photos. To keep her safe from the "actually" bad people, of course.
- whatshisface 8mo ago
  >going to track your location and read all your messages and copy all your photos. To keep her safe from the "actually" bad people, of course. The guy's name? Google. ;-)
  - NewsaHackO 8mo ago
    Actually, what Google does is totally legit because they pester you constantly about "sharing your location/photos/installing Gemini" until you accidentally press yes, and they can say they have your consent. So they are actually the good guys.
    - luxpir 8mo ago
      I concur, and find it abhorrent. And wish more people would kick up a stink about this. We need a publication or channel that talks about rights like this. I don't know of any that do a decent job. I donate to my local best option.
- microtonal 8mo ago
  By default their app cannot though because Android uses proper sandboxing and gated API access. So you actually have to give the app location access, access to your messages and access to your photos. Well, unless you use one of the many crappy Android devices that never get security updates, are running old kernels, old vendor security patch levels, miss all Android security patches, except applying the backported security bulletins every three months (1-2 months late). Yet, Google is happy to certify them as Android devices. It was never about security, it is about control. If it was about security, they would have revoked the GMS licenses of pretty much every vendor outside Google themselves and maaaaybe Samsung, until vendors actually started caring about security. If it was about security, there would not be as many scam apps in the Play Store itself. Back to your sister, the proper solution is to educate her (and everyone else) not to give apps unfettered access when they ask you to, plus let Google implement more security measures that systems like GrapheneOS already have (contact scopes, sensor permissions, network access permissions, etc.).
  - int0x29 8mo ago
    The tricky bit with that is it would get a monopoly lawsuit from manufacturers with a lot more money to throw around quickly. The biggest problem in improving android security posture is getting manufacturers to have robust security and release updates without getting monopoly lawsuits. It also doesn't help that mobile carriers can delay updates for months. Thanks T-Mobile.
    - TeMPOraL 8mo ago
      It also doesn't help that "robust security" often is the problem in the first place. People forget to ask the most important question: security for whom, and from what.
  - dotancohen 8mo ago
    > Well, unless you use one of the many crappy Android devices that never get security updates You mean those crappy devices that let me record my phone calls and let the voice recorder continue recording the lecture even when the screen is locked?
- mavamaarten 8mo ago
  So, what you're saying is that Google should work on better privacy controls. Right? Right???
- direwolf20 8mo ago
  Let's ban passwords because you could give me your password
  - master-lincoln 8mo ago
    That's why passkeys were introduced. Can not fish them
    - TeMPOraL 8mo ago
      Which is a problem because someone you need to. The industry still doesn't understand the concept of delegation of authority and the fundamental role it plays in everyday life. It also doesn't understand the idea of people making mistakes and the need to have robust recovery paths either.
    - echii12 8mo ago
      yes it is like the a problem because someone you need to. The industry still doesn't understand the concept of delegation of authority and the fundamental role it plays in everyday life. It also doesn't understand the idea of people making mistakes and the need to have robust recovery paths either.
  - duskdozer 8mo ago
    Forced "Log in with a magic link!" wants to say hello
  - wepple 8mo ago
    Hilarious example to use, because that literally is an effort that’s underway. Thousands of people get scammed and have their lives ruined every year, so deprecating passwords is absolutely the right move
    - nananana9 8mo ago
      Yeah, no. The actual solution is 1. Stop requiring computers/phones for everything. Your 91 year old grandma isn't going to make her way through your super cool very intuitive 2FA magic link email confirmation system, and I don't WANT to make my way through your super cool very intuitive 2FA magic link email confirmation system. 2. teach the people who need to use computers, how to use them.
- wiseowise 8mo ago
  > That guy that seems totally legit and just wants your sister to install his fun little game/app that he wrote is actually trying to get her to install an app that's going to track your location and read all your messages and copy all your photos. Is "that guy" in the room with us right now?
  - fragmede 8mo ago
    No. Thankfully the FBI caught them and they're in prison now.
- realusername 8mo ago
  As opposed to the Play Store where you search for "ChatGPT" and end up on a scam app which read all your messages and copy all your photos? And that example isn't random, I just tried and the first result for me is a counterfeit app with the logo of chatgpt copied .
sulam 8mo ago
I'm far from a Google apologist, but at the end of the day don't they have the right to write software however they want it? You have the right to build things the way you want to, fork Android, etc etc. If you're trying to say you have the right to tell Google what the code their employees write can do, well, I don't really agree with that. Sounds coercive, honestly. I wouldn't want them to do that to you and I don't want you to do that to them.
- aiauthoritydev 8mo ago
  It is little surprising a lot of smart people somehow miss this simple logic. Android is massive and extremely popular and I know several people who have been scammed already. It is important that Google makes this harder for scammers. Google is not doing this to harm developers but to protect their users.
  - foo12bar 8mo ago
    This is "think of the children/grandma" logic. There is a different between maintaining a company store where everything is verified, and forcing everyone to use it. Google shouldn't be able to hold a vertical monopoly, on what apps can run, what os's are allowed and what hardware can be used on devices that run Android, rest solely on this weak excuse that someone might harm grandma. Oh, and of course, if grandma gets scammed by a app in the Google store, Google isn't in any way held responsible. Such garbage, two-faced bs.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 8mo ago
    > It is little surprising a lot of smart people somehow miss this simple logic. Is it that people "somehow miss this simple logic", or is it that they weigh security and freedom differently than you?
  - deleted 8mo ago
    [deleted]
  - microtonal 8mo ago
    You already get a pretty scary warning when you try to install an app that was downloaded outside the Play Store. If people still install malware, that's the responsibility that comes with freedom. Your line of reasoning can be applied everywhere in life - people should not be able to do their own bank transfers or use a credit card, I know several people that who have been scammed already. Moreover, there are better ways to protect against malware: 1. educate people; 2. rather than using whitelisting, use blacklisting (similar to XProtect on macOS). Finally, the argument is not very strong on Google's side, since the Play Store itself has had its history of scams. Which, again is easier to protect against by educating people. No, don't put your banking information in a random app you downloaded from the Play Store (use the app that your bank tells you to). Do not install random keyboards from the Play Store. Etc.
klabb3 8mo ago
> I should have the right to […] use a "free" store that is not under control of Google Yes, but we also need to stop thinking like we’re trying to please the ghost of Steve Jobs. There is no ”store”. There are installers. You distribute them how you see fit, probably through the web. These ”alternative stores” angle is a controlled dissent corporate plan B, much like how recycling was propped up by the fossil fuel industry.

echelon 8mo ago

We deserve web installs without deep settings menu configurations, scare walls, or onerous processes. The EU and every other nation with digital sovereignty concerns need to make this happen to both Apple and Google. These are our devices. The giants are camping.

fragmede 8mo ago

But unfortunately, it turns out that some people you interact with aren't actually your friend. That guy that seems totally legit and just wants your sister to install his fun little game/app that he wrote is actually trying to get her to install an app that's going to track your location and read all your messages and copy all your photos. To keep her safe from the "actually" bad people, of course.

whatshisface 8mo ago
>going to track your location and read all your messages and copy all your photos. To keep her safe from the "actually" bad people, of course. The guy's name? Google. ;-)
- NewsaHackO 8mo ago
  Actually, what Google does is totally legit because they pester you constantly about "sharing your location/photos/installing Gemini" until you accidentally press yes, and they can say they have your consent. So they are actually the good guys.
  - luxpir 8mo ago
    I concur, and find it abhorrent. And wish more people would kick up a stink about this. We need a publication or channel that talks about rights like this. I don't know of any that do a decent job. I donate to my local best option.
microtonal 8mo ago
By default their app cannot though because Android uses proper sandboxing and gated API access. So you actually have to give the app location access, access to your messages and access to your photos. Well, unless you use one of the many crappy Android devices that never get security updates, are running old kernels, old vendor security patch levels, miss all Android security patches, except applying the backported security bulletins every three months (1-2 months late). Yet, Google is happy to certify them as Android devices. It was never about security, it is about control. If it was about security, they would have revoked the GMS licenses of pretty much every vendor outside Google themselves and maaaaybe Samsung, until vendors actually started caring about security. If it was about security, there would not be as many scam apps in the Play Store itself. Back to your sister, the proper solution is to educate her (and everyone else) not to give apps unfettered access when they ask you to, plus let Google implement more security measures that systems like GrapheneOS already have (contact scopes, sensor permissions, network access permissions, etc.).
- int0x29 8mo ago
  The tricky bit with that is it would get a monopoly lawsuit from manufacturers with a lot more money to throw around quickly. The biggest problem in improving android security posture is getting manufacturers to have robust security and release updates without getting monopoly lawsuits. It also doesn't help that mobile carriers can delay updates for months. Thanks T-Mobile.
  - TeMPOraL 8mo ago
    It also doesn't help that "robust security" often is the problem in the first place. People forget to ask the most important question: security for whom, and from what.
- dotancohen 8mo ago
  > Well, unless you use one of the many crappy Android devices that never get security updates You mean those crappy devices that let me record my phone calls and let the voice recorder continue recording the lecture even when the screen is locked?
mavamaarten 8mo ago
So, what you're saying is that Google should work on better privacy controls. Right? Right???
direwolf20 8mo ago
Let's ban passwords because you could give me your password
- master-lincoln 8mo ago
  That's why passkeys were introduced. Can not fish them
  - TeMPOraL 8mo ago
    Which is a problem because someone you need to. The industry still doesn't understand the concept of delegation of authority and the fundamental role it plays in everyday life. It also doesn't understand the idea of people making mistakes and the need to have robust recovery paths either.
  - echii12 8mo ago
    yes it is like the a problem because someone you need to. The industry still doesn't understand the concept of delegation of authority and the fundamental role it plays in everyday life. It also doesn't understand the idea of people making mistakes and the need to have robust recovery paths either.
- duskdozer 8mo ago
  Forced "Log in with a magic link!" wants to say hello
- wepple 8mo ago
  Hilarious example to use, because that literally is an effort that’s underway. Thousands of people get scammed and have their lives ruined every year, so deprecating passwords is absolutely the right move
  - nananana9 8mo ago
    Yeah, no. The actual solution is 1. Stop requiring computers/phones for everything. Your 91 year old grandma isn't going to make her way through your super cool very intuitive 2FA magic link email confirmation system, and I don't WANT to make my way through your super cool very intuitive 2FA magic link email confirmation system. 2. teach the people who need to use computers, how to use them.
wiseowise 8mo ago
> That guy that seems totally legit and just wants your sister to install his fun little game/app that he wrote is actually trying to get her to install an app that's going to track your location and read all your messages and copy all your photos. Is "that guy" in the room with us right now?
- fragmede 8mo ago
  No. Thankfully the FBI caught them and they're in prison now.
realusername 8mo ago
As opposed to the Play Store where you search for "ChatGPT" and end up on a scam app which read all your messages and copy all your photos? And that example isn't random, I just tried and the first result for me is a counterfeit app with the logo of chatgpt copied .

sulam 8mo ago

I'm far from a Google apologist, but at the end of the day don't they have the right to write software however they want it? You have the right to build things the way you want to, fork Android, etc etc. If you're trying to say you have the right to tell Google what the code their employees write can do, well, I don't really agree with that. Sounds coercive, honestly. I wouldn't want them to do that to you and I don't want you to do that to them.

aiauthoritydev 8mo ago
It is little surprising a lot of smart people somehow miss this simple logic. Android is massive and extremely popular and I know several people who have been scammed already. It is important that Google makes this harder for scammers. Google is not doing this to harm developers but to protect their users.
- foo12bar 8mo ago
  This is "think of the children/grandma" logic. There is a different between maintaining a company store where everything is verified, and forcing everyone to use it. Google shouldn't be able to hold a vertical monopoly, on what apps can run, what os's are allowed and what hardware can be used on devices that run Android, rest solely on this weak excuse that someone might harm grandma. Oh, and of course, if grandma gets scammed by a app in the Google store, Google isn't in any way held responsible. Such garbage, two-faced bs.
- yjftsjthsd-h 8mo ago
  > It is little surprising a lot of smart people somehow miss this simple logic. Is it that people "somehow miss this simple logic", or is it that they weigh security and freedom differently than you?
- deleted 8mo ago
  [deleted]
- microtonal 8mo ago
  You already get a pretty scary warning when you try to install an app that was downloaded outside the Play Store. If people still install malware, that's the responsibility that comes with freedom. Your line of reasoning can be applied everywhere in life - people should not be able to do their own bank transfers or use a credit card, I know several people that who have been scammed already. Moreover, there are better ways to protect against malware: 1. educate people; 2. rather than using whitelisting, use blacklisting (similar to XProtect on macOS). Finally, the argument is not very strong on Google's side, since the Play Store itself has had its history of scams. Which, again is easier to protect against by educating people. No, don't put your banking information in a random app you downloaded from the Play Store (use the app that your bank tells you to). Do not install random keyboards from the Play Store. Etc.

klabb3 8mo ago

> I should have the right to […] use a "free" store that is not under control of Google Yes, but we also need to stop thinking like we’re trying to please the ghost of Steve Jobs. There is no ”store”. There are installers. You distribute them how you see fit, probably through the web. These ”alternative stores” angle is a controlled dissent corporate plan B, much like how recycling was propped up by the fossil fuel industry.