4 ms·

Some people on X are saying they're "just" cloning/copying "puppet" human movements. I know very little about robotics, but given these appear totally free-sta

Some people on X are saying they're "just" cloning/copying "puppet" human movements. I know very little about robotics, but given these appear totally free-standing, if that was the case (I personally don't think it is), wouldn't that imply they have the same centre of gravity and weight of limbs as humans? Surely they'd have to be able to balance themselves, and copying a human's movements "exactly" wouldn't work for their own motion otherwise? I think when watching I saw one or two of the robots "judder" their feet a bit out of sync with others - this seems to imply they are capable of balancing their own motion a bit individually.

holoduke 8mo ago
Those are the same people that say that China is 30 years behind in chip manufacturing.
- suddenlybananas 8mo ago
  I don't know if you're aware but robots and chips are different things that require different expertise.
  - throwaway24778 8mo ago
    It's still a completely farcical attitude. At this point it's just a matter of how many years it'll take for chinese manufacturing to outstrip western expertise with chips, too. Ten years? Five? Two? Very exciting times to live through.
wasmainiac 8mo ago
It’s not a 1:1 human motion capture to servo translation. There is some work done to fix Center of gravity like you said and issues with friction and momentum. The hard part with “autonomy” is interpretation of the environment and feeding that back into some control loop to accomplish a goal in real time. That is why most of these demos are basically recordings of movements, like choreography.
- pixelesque 8mo ago
  They're also interacting with the environment (vaulting boxes / walls), which implies they either know their 3D position very accurately, or they have some form of sensors and can adapt a bit.
  - wasmainiac 8mo ago
    That’s fine, static objects can be integrated in to sequences if each unit has enough positional accuracy. My point is that if you interrupt the sequence by pushing it over or standing in front of it, the unit will not be able to recover or mitigate the issue. I’m not sure about the models in the video but they should enter a safe state, hopefully gracefully.
deleted 8mo ago
[deleted]
mesrik 8mo ago
Yes, the autonomy level of these robots was what I was yesterday emailing with my former colleagues we were wondering. Two months ago CNET & PC-Mag posted following video which suggests more about robots movements being assisted by humans. And it also shows Chinese have being edge of the development at that point. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXTibM33SDg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXTibM33SDg However, then another short video bit alike popped up and is puzzling too. Apparently Unitree robot is playing pingpong match like a pro. Sorry about german announcer, I couldn't find with english. https://www.youtube.com/shorts/BgD1ukTyNnw https://www.youtube.com/shorts/BgD1ukTyNnw There is another match viewable by pressing that "Robot plays ping ppng #robot" arrow. How about that robot? Is it human assisted or not? Our opinions diverted, I'm quite sure it is assisted but my former colleague thinks it's got to be autonomous as it would be too difficult and slow to do that fast movements with remote control assisted robot. It would be nice to hear opinions about that playing robot too if anyone could provide some insight in that. edit: I think the serve waiting robot hand movement and after losing wiping left eye gesture as a disappointing a bit in my opinion gives up it's human. Or if not, why would a robot do such a human like gestures. edit2: OK, good points, I see now. It's definitely a fake. Thanks to all who replied :)
- tudelo 8mo ago
  The ping pong video you linked is clearly fake. Look at the paddle... anyways...
- sheept 8mo ago
  I think the ping pong match video might be misleading you. Based on the visual artifacts around the robot, the original footage likely had a human player that was swapped in with a robot in this video. It also has an altered content warning.
- Bewelge 8mo ago
  I'm 99% sure that ping pong match is CGI. The whole robot has this green screen effect. Look at its feet. And at second 17 it just disappears entirely for a few frames.
- Keyframe 8mo ago
noxin 8mo ago
It looks like they have a point https://x.com/Osint613/status/2024068210660643009 https://x.com/Osint613/status/2024068210660643009
imtringued 8mo ago
The impressive part here isn't the movement itself. You can easily train a model to perform a "procedural animation" that includes a full body control policy. The hard part is making it reliable enough to perform long sequences of movements and adapting to differences in robot placement. In other words, performing a flawless stage play is the hardest part.
- tianqi 8mo ago
  I'm afraid you might not understand what you're talking about. Animation is a geometry problem, while robotics is a dynamics problem. The latter is subject to constraints many times greater than the former. There is no such "easy" model as you imagined that can transform the former into the latter.
jansan 8mo ago
Of course the robots have been pre-trained and the movements are scripted, and nobody is claiming otherwise. But there must be a lot of autonomous balancing taking place. At one point you can see the robots adjusting their feet slightly different although they are all in sync, and that catapult does not look like its movement is exactly the same every time. It is just super impressive. Does anyone remember when Honda's Asimo robot clumsily fell down the stairs during a demonstration[1] and we thought we were safe from a robot invasion by just moving to the upper floor? That was about 20 years ago. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mx6paHrnIE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mx6paHrnIE
simonjgreen 8mo ago
As someone who owns a pair of Unitree G2s this blew my mind
- faeyanpiraat 8mo ago
  what are you using those for ?
  - simonjgreen 8mo ago
    Performance and entertainment at events, along with four of their Go2 Pro dogs (the real crowd pleasers)
tw1984 8mo ago
> balancing their own motion a bit individually. check this 4 months old video below https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPSLMX_V38E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPSLMX_V38E I'd willing to bet that it is already close to impossible to get the robot lose its balance without some significant external forces.
michaelt 8mo ago
I've worked on much less expensive, much smaller humanoid robots. These robots are certainly running through a scripted set of poses which has been extensively tested for the conditions (Humans would also be choreographed and have to hit certain marks at certain times). If you covered the stage in loose gravel or a thick carpet they'd all start falling over. The things the robots hold are almost certainly taped into their hands. Despite that, this is a very impressive demo. Those robots are $40k+, they've got 20+ of them. And not a single one fell over. They're fast too - and there are a load of corners they could have cut, but they didn't. The floor has two textures, it would have been easier without that. The humans right alongside them? Much less safety paperwork without them. The robot wearing trousers and a cape? Much easier without that. The fewer robots you have, the lower the chances on falls over landing their backflip. Lose the audience and record it in multiple takes. Hell, you could have human acrobats in robot costumes and it'd cost far less and be much easier. So this demo is very much a costly signal of confidence.
- verdverm 8mo ago
  > They're fast too That was of of the two things that impressed me most, along with the choreography involving close and direct contact
- flakeoil 8mo ago
  > The things the robots hold are almost certainly taped into their hands. You can clearly see that the robots change their grip of their sword, so it cannot be taped to their hands.
  - Joel_Mckay 8mo ago
    Probably a compliant magnetic coupling, as even simple force-sensing mechanical hands cost too much to practice back-flips. =3
  - michaelt 8mo ago
    When is that? With the poles at the 1 minute mark, the robots enter holding them and their left hand never moves on the pole. Also note the stationary hand is matte grey while the moving hand is metallic silver. Likewise with the wine gourds (?) at 2m30s and the nunchucks at 3m40s. It’s a completely sensible design decision, much simpler to do cartwheels and vaults if you don’t have super delicate fingers fitted.
clifdweller 8mo ago
They do use keyframes most likely captured from a human controller. you can see this after they do the backflip at :29s they land a bit differently and recover in slightly different ways but all end up in a static pose for a moment before moving on to next movement. The advancement here is the dynamics to go between those frames. Looking at last years performance you can see they pretty much go from frame a to b then stabilize then to c then stabilize. This is what makes this years look much more lifelike there seems to be some active stabilization going on during the movements. It also seems to let them chain movements that can take advantage of momentum much better rather than needing to be at rest between frames.

holoduke 8mo ago

Those are the same people that say that China is 30 years behind in chip manufacturing.

suddenlybananas 8mo ago
I don't know if you're aware but robots and chips are different things that require different expertise.
- throwaway24778 8mo ago
  It's still a completely farcical attitude. At this point it's just a matter of how many years it'll take for chinese manufacturing to outstrip western expertise with chips, too. Ten years? Five? Two? Very exciting times to live through.

wasmainiac 8mo ago

It’s not a 1:1 human motion capture to servo translation. There is some work done to fix Center of gravity like you said and issues with friction and momentum. The hard part with “autonomy” is interpretation of the environment and feeding that back into some control loop to accomplish a goal in real time. That is why most of these demos are basically recordings of movements, like choreography.

pixelesque 8mo ago
They're also interacting with the environment (vaulting boxes / walls), which implies they either know their 3D position very accurately, or they have some form of sensors and can adapt a bit.
- wasmainiac 8mo ago
  That’s fine, static objects can be integrated in to sequences if each unit has enough positional accuracy. My point is that if you interrupt the sequence by pushing it over or standing in front of it, the unit will not be able to recover or mitigate the issue. I’m not sure about the models in the video but they should enter a safe state, hopefully gracefully.

deleted 8mo ago

[deleted]

mesrik 8mo ago

Yes, the autonomy level of these robots was what I was yesterday emailing with my former colleagues we were wondering. Two months ago CNET & PC-Mag posted following video which suggests more about robots movements being assisted by humans. And it also shows Chinese have being edge of the development at that point. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXTibM33SDg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXTibM33SDg However, then another short video bit alike popped up and is puzzling too. Apparently Unitree robot is playing pingpong match like a pro. Sorry about german announcer, I couldn't find with english. https://www.youtube.com/shorts/BgD1ukTyNnw https://www.youtube.com/shorts/BgD1ukTyNnw There is another match viewable by pressing that "Robot plays ping ppng #robot" arrow. How about that robot? Is it human assisted or not? Our opinions diverted, I'm quite sure it is assisted but my former colleague thinks it's got to be autonomous as it would be too difficult and slow to do that fast movements with remote control assisted robot. It would be nice to hear opinions about that playing robot too if anyone could provide some insight in that. edit: I think the serve waiting robot hand movement and after losing wiping left eye gesture as a disappointing a bit in my opinion gives up it's human. Or if not, why would a robot do such a human like gestures. edit2: OK, good points, I see now. It's definitely a fake. Thanks to all who replied :)

tudelo 8mo ago
The ping pong video you linked is clearly fake. Look at the paddle... anyways...
sheept 8mo ago
I think the ping pong match video might be misleading you. Based on the visual artifacts around the robot, the original footage likely had a human player that was swapped in with a robot in this video. It also has an altered content warning.
Bewelge 8mo ago
I'm 99% sure that ping pong match is CGI. The whole robot has this green screen effect. Look at its feet. And at second 17 it just disappears entirely for a few frames.
Keyframe 8mo ago

noxin 8mo ago

It looks like they have a point https://x.com/Osint613/status/2024068210660643009 https://x.com/Osint613/status/2024068210660643009

imtringued 8mo ago

The impressive part here isn't the movement itself. You can easily train a model to perform a "procedural animation" that includes a full body control policy. The hard part is making it reliable enough to perform long sequences of movements and adapting to differences in robot placement. In other words, performing a flawless stage play is the hardest part.

tianqi 8mo ago
I'm afraid you might not understand what you're talking about. Animation is a geometry problem, while robotics is a dynamics problem. The latter is subject to constraints many times greater than the former. There is no such "easy" model as you imagined that can transform the former into the latter.

jansan 8mo ago

Of course the robots have been pre-trained and the movements are scripted, and nobody is claiming otherwise. But there must be a lot of autonomous balancing taking place. At one point you can see the robots adjusting their feet slightly different although they are all in sync, and that catapult does not look like its movement is exactly the same every time. It is just super impressive. Does anyone remember when Honda's Asimo robot clumsily fell down the stairs during a demonstration[1] and we thought we were safe from a robot invasion by just moving to the upper floor? That was about 20 years ago. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mx6paHrnIE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mx6paHrnIE

simonjgreen 8mo ago

As someone who owns a pair of Unitree G2s this blew my mind

faeyanpiraat 8mo ago
what are you using those for ?
- simonjgreen 8mo ago
  Performance and entertainment at events, along with four of their Go2 Pro dogs (the real crowd pleasers)

tw1984 8mo ago

> balancing their own motion a bit individually. check this 4 months old video below https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPSLMX_V38E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPSLMX_V38E I'd willing to bet that it is already close to impossible to get the robot lose its balance without some significant external forces.

michaelt 8mo ago

I've worked on much less expensive, much smaller humanoid robots. These robots are certainly running through a scripted set of poses which has been extensively tested for the conditions (Humans would also be choreographed and have to hit certain marks at certain times). If you covered the stage in loose gravel or a thick carpet they'd all start falling over. The things the robots hold are almost certainly taped into their hands. Despite that, this is a very impressive demo. Those robots are $40k+, they've got 20+ of them. And not a single one fell over. They're fast too - and there are a load of corners they could have cut, but they didn't. The floor has two textures, it would have been easier without that. The humans right alongside them? Much less safety paperwork without them. The robot wearing trousers and a cape? Much easier without that. The fewer robots you have, the lower the chances on falls over landing their backflip. Lose the audience and record it in multiple takes. Hell, you could have human acrobats in robot costumes and it'd cost far less and be much easier. So this demo is very much a costly signal of confidence.

verdverm 8mo ago
> They're fast too That was of of the two things that impressed me most, along with the choreography involving close and direct contact
flakeoil 8mo ago
> The things the robots hold are almost certainly taped into their hands. You can clearly see that the robots change their grip of their sword, so it cannot be taped to their hands.
- Joel_Mckay 8mo ago
  Probably a compliant magnetic coupling, as even simple force-sensing mechanical hands cost too much to practice back-flips. =3
- michaelt 8mo ago
  When is that? With the poles at the 1 minute mark, the robots enter holding them and their left hand never moves on the pole. Also note the stationary hand is matte grey while the moving hand is metallic silver. Likewise with the wine gourds (?) at 2m30s and the nunchucks at 3m40s. It’s a completely sensible design decision, much simpler to do cartwheels and vaults if you don’t have super delicate fingers fitted.

clifdweller 8mo ago

They do use keyframes most likely captured from a human controller. you can see this after they do the backflip at :29s they land a bit differently and recover in slightly different ways but all end up in a static pose for a moment before moving on to next movement. The advancement here is the dynamics to go between those frames. Looking at last years performance you can see they pretty much go from frame a to b then stabilize then to c then stabilize. This is what makes this years look much more lifelike there seems to be some active stabilization going on during the movements. It also seems to let them chain movements that can take advantage of momentum much better rather than needing to be at rest between frames.