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I often wonder whether the folks at Apple have the Asahi team on their radar. Are they in awe of the reverse engineering marvels coming out of the Asahi project

by sohrob 8mo ago

I often wonder whether the folks at Apple have the Asahi team on their radar. Are they in awe of the reverse engineering marvels coming out of the Asahi project, or are they indifferent to it?

Kenji 8mo ago
Certainly they know about it. There is no way they don't.
Bigpet 8mo ago
I think the dev that was responsible for the bootloader or some security chip having the option to be opened posted on twitter a while ago. Pretty sure he implied or mentioned that this was what he was hoping for. Edit: this was what I was remembering: https://x.com/XenoKovah/status/1339914714055368704 https://x.com/XenoKovah/status/1339914714055368704
- bigyabai 8mo ago
  In fairness; that decision predates the existence of Asahi. Unless Apple was working with the community before Apple Silicon dropped, this isn't much acknowledgement of their existence.
worldsavior 8mo ago
I don't think they care. It brings more customers to Apple.
chippiewill 8mo ago
IIRC Marcan mentioned something he found that had been deliberately put into the Mac boot loader that made booting alternative operating systems easier and perhaps making it possible altogether.
- jsheard 8mo ago
  That's apparent enough from the fact that you don't need a jailbreak exploit to boot non-Apple-signed kernels on a Mac, unlike iPads with exactly the same silicon. They are intentionally configured differently.
  - imglorp 8mo ago
    Why the locking difference on platforms? I so want to run my os on ipad and save it from the ewaste bin.
    - szmarczak 8mo ago
      iPads are cheaper than MacBooks and more popular. They'd rather prefer if you bought another one instead of using it indefinitely. The same with smartphones. The answer always has been: I like money!
      - walletdrainer 8mo ago
        This is a weird conspiracy theory because people don’t really do that with macs.
        szmarczak 7mo ago
        iPads and MacBooks are architecturally different devices with different purposes (but soon the difference may vanish). People tend to upgrade their phones/tablets more often than their PCs/laptops. Macs aren't locked down because they are designed NOT to be locked down. You can write drivers for macOS (otherwise it couldn't compete with Windows or Linux) but not for iPadOS.
        szmarczak 7mo ago
        That's weird response because people really did that with Macs. People used to run Windows (Boot Camp) on their Mac devices.
        7mo ago
- signa11 8mo ago
  xeno-kovah is responsible for that one. see the most excellent 39c3 video "asahi linux porting linux to apple silicon" for more information.
- wpm 8mo ago
  Yes, because if they didn't, the fact that macOS doesn't lock you down in a sandbox means that is more like the entire boot chain would've been jailbroken. The boot chain shared for the most part with iOS devices, where Apple 100% does not want "jailbreaks" because it means App Stores that they don't get to take 15-30% from. The happy path on the Mac was provided so the talent capable of booting Linux on it could take the happy path that hides all of the stuff Apple would rather not have a bunch of reverse engineers sniffing around.
WD-42 8mo ago
They are aware. They are also aware of the designs sitting in the cabinet right next to them in Cupertino that would make all the reverse engineering instantly unnecessary. Such a monumentally Sisyphean waste of effort in behalf of the Asahi devs in my opinion. If you care about personal computing or Linux, don’t buy a Mac.
- ckbkr10 8mo ago
  I'm still surprised how much drive this project has, a platform that doesn't want to support it and could introduce breaking changes any day. Just why?
  - 12345hn6789 8mo ago
    This horse has been beat to death on HN. Because the apple laptop ecosystem is the highest quality laptop you can purchase.
    - MarsIronPI 8mo ago
      Maybe so, but nothing beats the 2008-2013 Thinkpad keyboards. The key travel and tactility are unmatched even by later Thinkpads. Also no trackpoint.
      - swiftcoder 8mo ago
        > nothing beats the 2008-2013 Thinkpad keyboards Maybe so, but 15-20 year old laptops are definitely starting to show their age. An M2 MacBook Pro, on the other hand, is only 4 years old, has a fairly OK keyboard, and is still in striking distance of current high-end ultrabooks when it comes to performance.
        MarsIronPI 8mo ago
        The only thing my X230 struggles to do is run LLMs locally. My needs are simple, and I think normal people (i.e. probably not most people on this site) don't have needs that are any more demanding than mine. Granted, this is running GNU/Linux rather than Windows. If you're running Windows then yeah, they show their age.
coldtea 8mo ago
Sure they do. They even explicitly made some changes back 2-3 years ago to make it easier for Asahi (or such projects)

by sohrob 8mo ago

I often wonder whether the folks at Apple have the Asahi team on their radar. Are they in awe of the reverse engineering marvels coming out of the Asahi project, or are they indifferent to it?

Kenji 8mo ago

Certainly they know about it. There is no way they don't.

Bigpet 8mo ago

I think the dev that was responsible for the bootloader or some security chip having the option to be opened posted on twitter a while ago. Pretty sure he implied or mentioned that this was what he was hoping for. Edit: this was what I was remembering: https://x.com/XenoKovah/status/1339914714055368704 https://x.com/XenoKovah/status/1339914714055368704

bigyabai 8mo ago
In fairness; that decision predates the existence of Asahi. Unless Apple was working with the community before Apple Silicon dropped, this isn't much acknowledgement of their existence.

worldsavior 8mo ago

I don't think they care. It brings more customers to Apple.

chippiewill 8mo ago

IIRC Marcan mentioned something he found that had been deliberately put into the Mac boot loader that made booting alternative operating systems easier and perhaps making it possible altogether.

jsheard 8mo ago
That's apparent enough from the fact that you don't need a jailbreak exploit to boot non-Apple-signed kernels on a Mac, unlike iPads with exactly the same silicon. They are intentionally configured differently.
- imglorp 8mo ago
  Why the locking difference on platforms? I so want to run my os on ipad and save it from the ewaste bin.
  - szmarczak 8mo ago
    iPads are cheaper than MacBooks and more popular. They'd rather prefer if you bought another one instead of using it indefinitely. The same with smartphones. The answer always has been: I like money!
    - walletdrainer 8mo ago
      This is a weird conspiracy theory because people don’t really do that with macs.
      - szmarczak 7mo ago
        iPads and MacBooks are architecturally different devices with different purposes (but soon the difference may vanish). People tend to upgrade their phones/tablets more often than their PCs/laptops. Macs aren't locked down because they are designed NOT to be locked down. You can write drivers for macOS (otherwise it couldn't compete with Windows or Linux) but not for iPadOS.
      - szmarczak 7mo ago
        That's weird response because people really did that with Macs. People used to run Windows (Boot Camp) on their Mac devices.
        7mo ago
signa11 8mo ago
xeno-kovah is responsible for that one. see the most excellent 39c3 video "asahi linux porting linux to apple silicon" for more information.
wpm 8mo ago
Yes, because if they didn't, the fact that macOS doesn't lock you down in a sandbox means that is more like the entire boot chain would've been jailbroken. The boot chain shared for the most part with iOS devices, where Apple 100% does not want "jailbreaks" because it means App Stores that they don't get to take 15-30% from. The happy path on the Mac was provided so the talent capable of booting Linux on it could take the happy path that hides all of the stuff Apple would rather not have a bunch of reverse engineers sniffing around.

WD-42 8mo ago

They are aware. They are also aware of the designs sitting in the cabinet right next to them in Cupertino that would make all the reverse engineering instantly unnecessary. Such a monumentally Sisyphean waste of effort in behalf of the Asahi devs in my opinion. If you care about personal computing or Linux, don’t buy a Mac.

ckbkr10 8mo ago
I'm still surprised how much drive this project has, a platform that doesn't want to support it and could introduce breaking changes any day. Just why?
- 12345hn6789 8mo ago
  This horse has been beat to death on HN. Because the apple laptop ecosystem is the highest quality laptop you can purchase.
  - MarsIronPI 8mo ago
    Maybe so, but nothing beats the 2008-2013 Thinkpad keyboards. The key travel and tactility are unmatched even by later Thinkpads. Also no trackpoint.
    - swiftcoder 8mo ago
      > nothing beats the 2008-2013 Thinkpad keyboards Maybe so, but 15-20 year old laptops are definitely starting to show their age. An M2 MacBook Pro, on the other hand, is only 4 years old, has a fairly OK keyboard, and is still in striking distance of current high-end ultrabooks when it comes to performance.
      - MarsIronPI 8mo ago
        The only thing my X230 struggles to do is run LLMs locally. My needs are simple, and I think normal people (i.e. probably not most people on this site) don't have needs that are any more demanding than mine. Granted, this is running GNU/Linux rather than Windows. If you're running Windows then yeah, they show their age.

coldtea 8mo ago

Sure they do. They even explicitly made some changes back 2-3 years ago to make it easier for Asahi (or such projects)