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> is really just because hardware design is a niche field Which doesn't pay as well as jobs in software do, unfortunately.

by acuozzo 8mo ago

IshKebab 8mo ago
Really? In my experience in the UK it pays ~20% better. We're talking about silicon hardware design. Not PCBs.
- acuozzo 8mo ago
  At least in the US, yes. Check out general1465's reply to me. The problem, I think, is that there are many competent hardware design engineers available abroad and since hardware is usually designed with very rigorous specs, tests, etc. it's easy to outsource. You can test if the hardware design engineer(s) came up with an adequate design and, if not, refuse payment or demand reimbursement, depending on how the contract is written. It's all very clear-cut and measurable. Software is still the "Wild West", even with LLMs. It's nebulous, fast-moving, and requires a lot of communication to get close to reaching the maintenance stage.
  - BitsAndObjects 8mo ago
    PCB Design != Chip Design. The article was about chip design. Not trying to stop you debating the merits and shortcomings of PCB Design roles, just pointing out you may be discussing very very different jobs.
    - acuozzo 8mo ago
      I'm talking about chip design: Verilog, VHDL, et al. Very specifications-driven and easily tested. Very easy to outsource if you have a domestic engineer write the spec and test suite. Mind you, I am not talking about IP-sensitive chip design or anything novel. I am talking about iterative improvements to well-known and solved problems e.g., a next generation ADC with slightly less output ripple.
      - BitsAndObjects 8mo ago
        Sure, so, yeah "general1465" seemed to be talking about PCB Design. And from what I know of SemiEngineering's focus, they're talking about chip design in the sense of processor design (like Tenstorrent, Ampere, Ventana, SiFive, Rivos, Graphcore, Arm, Intel, AMD, Nvidia, etc.) rather than the kind of IP you're referring to. Although, I think there's still an argument to be made for the skill shortage in the broader semiconductor design areas. Anyway, I agree with you that the commoditized IP that's incrementally improving, while very important, isn't going to pay as well as the "novel stuff" in processor design, or even in things like photonics.
      - IshKebab 8mo ago
        > easily tested. Definitely not. You do normally have pretty good specifications, but the level of testing required is much higher than software. > Very easy to outsource The previous company I was in tried to outsource some directed C tests. It did not go well. It's easy to outsource but it's even easier to get worthless tests back.
        acuozzo 8mo ago
        > the level of testing required is much higher than software No dispute there. I suppose I meant "simply" instead of "easily". Outside of aeronautics software (specifically, aviation and spaceships/NASA), the topology of the software solution space can change dramatically during development. Stated differently: the cyclomatic complexity of a codebase is absurdly volatile, especially during the exploratory development stage, but even later on... things can very abruptly change. AFAICT, this is not really the case with chip design. That is, the sheer amount of testing you have to do is high, but the very nature of *what you're testing* isn't changing under your feet all the time. This means that the construction of a test suite can largely be front-loaded which I think of as "simple", I suppose...
general1465 8mo ago
Exactly money is problem. I am by trade hardware designer. I have no problem to sit down, create PCB in KiCAD and have it made perfect on first try. But I am doing this just as a hobby because it does not pay much. SWE just pays better even with the AI scarecrow behind it.

> is really just because hardware design is a niche field Which doesn't pay as well as jobs in software do, unfortunately.

by acuozzo 8mo ago

> is really just because hardware design is a niche field Which doesn't pay as well as jobs in software do, unfortunately.

IshKebab 8mo ago

Really? In my experience in the UK it pays ~20% better. We're talking about silicon hardware design. Not PCBs.

acuozzo 8mo ago
At least in the US, yes. Check out general1465's reply to me. The problem, I think, is that there are many competent hardware design engineers available abroad and since hardware is usually designed with very rigorous specs, tests, etc. it's easy to outsource. You can test if the hardware design engineer(s) came up with an adequate design and, if not, refuse payment or demand reimbursement, depending on how the contract is written. It's all very clear-cut and measurable. Software is still the "Wild West", even with LLMs. It's nebulous, fast-moving, and requires a lot of communication to get close to reaching the maintenance stage.
- BitsAndObjects 8mo ago
  PCB Design != Chip Design. The article was about chip design. Not trying to stop you debating the merits and shortcomings of PCB Design roles, just pointing out you may be discussing very very different jobs.
  - acuozzo 8mo ago
    I'm talking about chip design: Verilog, VHDL, et al. Very specifications-driven and easily tested. Very easy to outsource if you have a domestic engineer write the spec and test suite. Mind you, I am not talking about IP-sensitive chip design or anything novel. I am talking about iterative improvements to well-known and solved problems e.g., a next generation ADC with slightly less output ripple.
    - BitsAndObjects 8mo ago
      Sure, so, yeah "general1465" seemed to be talking about PCB Design. And from what I know of SemiEngineering's focus, they're talking about chip design in the sense of processor design (like Tenstorrent, Ampere, Ventana, SiFive, Rivos, Graphcore, Arm, Intel, AMD, Nvidia, etc.) rather than the kind of IP you're referring to. Although, I think there's still an argument to be made for the skill shortage in the broader semiconductor design areas. Anyway, I agree with you that the commoditized IP that's incrementally improving, while very important, isn't going to pay as well as the "novel stuff" in processor design, or even in things like photonics.
    - IshKebab 8mo ago
      > easily tested. Definitely not. You do normally have pretty good specifications, but the level of testing required is much higher than software. > Very easy to outsource The previous company I was in tried to outsource some directed C tests. It did not go well. It's easy to outsource but it's even easier to get worthless tests back.
      - acuozzo 8mo ago
        > the level of testing required is much higher than software No dispute there. I suppose I meant "simply" instead of "easily". Outside of aeronautics software (specifically, aviation and spaceships/NASA), the topology of the software solution space can change dramatically during development. Stated differently: the cyclomatic complexity of a codebase is absurdly volatile, especially during the exploratory development stage, but even later on... things can very abruptly change. AFAICT, this is not really the case with chip design. That is, the sheer amount of testing you have to do is high, but the very nature of *what you're testing* isn't changing under your feet all the time. This means that the construction of a test suite can largely be front-loaded which I think of as "simple", I suppose...

general1465 8mo ago

Exactly money is problem. I am by trade hardware designer. I have no problem to sit down, create PCB in KiCAD and have it made perfect on first try. But I am doing this just as a hobby because it does not pay much. SWE just pays better even with the AI scarecrow behind it.