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I like the science and engineering fairs though because "I built a thing" doesn't fit into the scientific model. I always had this trouble in the fair with robo

I like the science and engineering fairs though because "I built a thing" doesn't fit into the scientific model. I always had this trouble in the fair with robotics because what's the hypothesis? "I hypothesize I can build a robot that..." no that's not science that's engineering.

timr 8mo ago
It's also really damned hard to come up with an interesting, novel question, that is testable, with resources available to the average school child, in a reasonable amount of time. Allowing engineering opens up the workable space by quite a bit.
- anon291 8mo ago
  Questions don't need to be new to be science. My brother and I, for example, did an experiment where we tested pH of various water bodies around us. The hypothesis was based off of local drainage patterns. Not a new question... Still scientific.
MITSardine 8mo ago
To be fair, a lot of science doesn't follow the scientific method. I've yet to see an applied mathematician (to speak only of what I know) come up with a hypothesis, it's usually rather: here's how people solve this problem currently, this has this and that drawback, and our paper introduces a new method that solves bigger problems faster/new classes of problems. The same could be said of theoretical work: here, we tightened up an inequality. This is also research, not all of it is experimental!
- ModernMech 8mo ago
  Yeah I get it when giving projects to kids it's easier to be like "Here are the 5 sections you have to do" and then grade them on how well they did the 5 sections... but that's really limiting the spirit of the thing if the idea was to let the kids off the leash and see where they can take their minds.
- musicale 8mo ago
  I concur - research can include both scientific and engineering research. I note MIT (like many universities) has a department of Electrical Engineering and Computer "Science".
  - ModernMech 8mo ago
    It's interesting seeing the EECS and CS+CompENG programs splitting into two CompE and AI programs currently. This is happening in my department where we are standing up an AI major and we're all asking "Is the CS department the AI department now or what? Where do all the systems people go?"
anon291 8mo ago
That's not science then. Just because engineering is equally enigmatic to most people as science doesn't mean they're the same. Science means applying the scientific method. "I hypothesize that method X is the best way to construct a robot that does Y and I've tested methods A, B, and C to validate that claim" That's science. Just building something can actually be a pursuit of non science..this is why many engineers have not invented here syndrome. They think they're thinking scientifically, but they don't. Thus, instead of checking their assumptions, they run with them.
- ModernMech 8mo ago
  I think you're agreeing with me? Or maybe you meant to reply to someone else because that's my point: building the robot is not science, but it's something I think kids should still do, that's why science and engineering fairs are my preference. Or maybe there should be engineering fairs?
  - anon291 8mo ago
    No I'm saying a science and engineering fair doesn't really make sense. There's science in engineering, but just any engineering task is not scientific necessarily.
    - ModernMech 8mo ago
      Oh, I see. I think they're combined as one fair instead of a separate science fair and an engineering fair because there's not enough students to justify having two separate events.
    - musicale 8mo ago
      Fortunately computer science is often in the school of engineering.
wildzzz 8mo ago
We did ISEF in highschool. I always wanted to build something but just couldn't figure out a way to justify it. My teacher usually just said do an experiment please. I usually just did some lame science project that didn't really produce anything interesting. Freshman year: effect of light wavelength on basil plant growth. I shined a black light, a regular light bulb, and a very bright IR light at some basil plants. I probably could have made it better by doing colored lights with controlled lux levels. Didn't win anything and the judges were unimpressed. Sophomore year: effect of water pH on electrolysis gas production. Varied the pH on some water and put it in an electrolysis apparatus. I actually got 3rd place in the highschool chemistry group surprisingly. It wasn't a very rigorous project but I guess no one else did anything terribly interesting. Not enough to go onto regional or state level (not sure what came next). Even my parents were surprised.

timr 8mo ago

It's also really damned hard to come up with an interesting, novel question, that is testable, with resources available to the average school child, in a reasonable amount of time. Allowing engineering opens up the workable space by quite a bit.

anon291 8mo ago
Questions don't need to be new to be science. My brother and I, for example, did an experiment where we tested pH of various water bodies around us. The hypothesis was based off of local drainage patterns. Not a new question... Still scientific.

MITSardine 8mo ago

To be fair, a lot of science doesn't follow the scientific method. I've yet to see an applied mathematician (to speak only of what I know) come up with a hypothesis, it's usually rather: here's how people solve this problem currently, this has this and that drawback, and our paper introduces a new method that solves bigger problems faster/new classes of problems. The same could be said of theoretical work: here, we tightened up an inequality. This is also research, not all of it is experimental!

ModernMech 8mo ago
Yeah I get it when giving projects to kids it's easier to be like "Here are the 5 sections you have to do" and then grade them on how well they did the 5 sections... but that's really limiting the spirit of the thing if the idea was to let the kids off the leash and see where they can take their minds.
musicale 8mo ago
I concur - research can include both scientific and engineering research. I note MIT (like many universities) has a department of Electrical Engineering and Computer "Science".
- ModernMech 8mo ago
  It's interesting seeing the EECS and CS+CompENG programs splitting into two CompE and AI programs currently. This is happening in my department where we are standing up an AI major and we're all asking "Is the CS department the AI department now or what? Where do all the systems people go?"

anon291 8mo ago

That's not science then. Just because engineering is equally enigmatic to most people as science doesn't mean they're the same. Science means applying the scientific method. "I hypothesize that method X is the best way to construct a robot that does Y and I've tested methods A, B, and C to validate that claim" That's science. Just building something can actually be a pursuit of non science..this is why many engineers have not invented here syndrome. They think they're thinking scientifically, but they don't. Thus, instead of checking their assumptions, they run with them.

ModernMech 8mo ago
I think you're agreeing with me? Or maybe you meant to reply to someone else because that's my point: building the robot is not science, but it's something I think kids should still do, that's why science and engineering fairs are my preference. Or maybe there should be engineering fairs?
- anon291 8mo ago
  No I'm saying a science and engineering fair doesn't really make sense. There's science in engineering, but just any engineering task is not scientific necessarily.
  - ModernMech 8mo ago
    Oh, I see. I think they're combined as one fair instead of a separate science fair and an engineering fair because there's not enough students to justify having two separate events.
  - musicale 8mo ago
    Fortunately computer science is often in the school of engineering.

wildzzz 8mo ago

We did ISEF in highschool. I always wanted to build something but just couldn't figure out a way to justify it. My teacher usually just said do an experiment please. I usually just did some lame science project that didn't really produce anything interesting. Freshman year: effect of light wavelength on basil plant growth. I shined a black light, a regular light bulb, and a very bright IR light at some basil plants. I probably could have made it better by doing colored lights with controlled lux levels. Didn't win anything and the judges were unimpressed. Sophomore year: effect of water pH on electrolysis gas production. Varied the pH on some water and put it in an electrolysis apparatus. I actually got 3rd place in the highschool chemistry group surprisingly. It wasn't a very rigorous project but I guess no one else did anything terribly interesting. Not enough to go onto regional or state level (not sure what came next). Even my parents were surprised.