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Still baffles me how did Russian Empire/Soviets come from this to being a petty regional player who can barely take on a much weaker neighbor and being fully de
by wiseowise 9mo ago
Still baffles me how did Russian Empire/Soviets come from this to being a petty regional player who can barely take on a much weaker neighbor and being fully dependent on China.
- RaccoonAttack 9mo agoNeighbor was Soviet too.
- Luc 9mo agoThe Soviets tried to transition from an economy focused on war and heavy industry to a consumer oriented economy, and they failed massively. See the book 'Building a ruin'.
- ptero 9mo agoThey never actually put a full effort into building a consumer oriented economy. The authorities would say something about a new food program or a housing program but only as motivational goals. Main players always saw getting people less economically dependent on the state as a major threat. Making people economically miserable was never a goal, but when building consumer economy would start showing promise the state would reestablish control (see for example Kosygin reforms).
- philistine 9mo agoExactly; the Soviet Union famously tried to reform its political institutions before reforming its economy. The Chinese looked at that and decided never to reform their political system.
- Quarrel 9mo agoI'm not sure the Soviets ultimately ever really tried to make the transition, when confronted with the reality that the ruling dogma that they represented no longer worked, they couldn't handle the collapses in the periphery. Also see the 'lost years' of the Japanese economy, or the Chinese as they try to make the transition now. It is terribly hard, but the USSR had their heads well in the sand at that point.
- expedition32 9mo agoThe Soviets wanted to build a new system China decided to take over the old one after realising Marxism wasn't going to cut it.
- moffkalast 9mo agoWhy would it? The 'much weaker neighbour' in question and other satellites did most of the work on these kinds of projects. Korolev was Ukrainian, they launched from Kazakhstan. The most famous USSR planes, i.e. Antonov, are Ukrainian. Odessa shipyard was the main ship manufacturer.
- konart 9mo ago>The 'much weaker neighbour' in question and other satellites did most of the work Aside from Ukraine and Belarus these "other satellites" had nothing resembling modern civilization at the beginning of the USSR times. >Korolev was Ukrainian... ... who finished Bauman's University in Moscow. What does his ethnicity has to do with this? And why him and not Tsiolkovsky? >they launched from Kazakhstan And who designed and build Baikonur? Locals? >most famous USSR planes, i.e. Antonov "most famous" how? As far as Antonov goes it's mostly famous for An225 and An124. An225 was a joint affort by at least 8 different entities. Only two of which where in Ukraine. An124 had a similar story. Should I even begin to state the obvious and say that not Antonov was not only manned by ukrainians?
- lovegrenoble 9mo ago>> The most famous USSR planes, i.e. Antonov, are Ukrainian Created in Novosibirsk, Russia (Russian SFSR). Later, the Bureau was relocated to Kyiv. Oleg Antonov (aircraft designer) born in Troitsy, Moscow Governorate.
- sedan_baklazhan 9mo agoLet me remind you of three things: 1) This weaker neighbor is aided and funded by a block of countries with a total population of 1b, 6 times that of Russia. 2) The same block is doing all it can to crash the Russian economy. 3) Nevertheless, this union of a weak neighbor + 1b block is steadily loosing land.
- wiseowise 9mo ago> This weaker neighbor is aided and funded by a block of countries with a total population of 1b, 6 times that of Russia. 'Aided and funded' literally a fractional percent of their economies over five years. > The same block is doing all it can to crash the Russian economy I severely doubt about "all it can" part. > Nevertheless, this union of a weak neighbor + 1b block is steadily loosing land. Less than percent a year since 2023. This is a shockingly bad performance for a country to that considered themselves rival to China/Europe/US. As to "+ 1b block" it's like that joke goes: "Russia v NATO war. Russian status: 1 mil casualties. NATO status: hasn't arrived yet."
- sedan_baklazhan 9mo ago[flagged]
- wiseowise 9mo ago> Yes, extensively aided and funded, no matter how you try to avoid this fact I literally gave you the number, this is the fact: West has provided less than percent of their economies over 5 years. > Russia has more sanctions applied that any country ever did. That's what attacking your neighbour does, yes. And it's far, far from 'all it can' part. > Still it is Russia gaining land and NATO ally, which runs on NATO money and NATO weapons, retreating. Russia took less than percent of Ukrainian soil every year after initial shock gains. This is hilariously bad performance for the great power that fights against donated scraps. It's not even high end tech (F-35s, last gen Euro-fighters). > NATO has arrived indeed. NATO ally (or protectorate) has huge and obvious manpower loss. Does NATO know it has arrived?
- BoxOfRain 9mo agoI think we in the West underestimate just how severe the '90s were in Russia. You can observe the fall of the USSR by looking at a graph of average life expectancy in Russia, the scale of state failure was really enormous.
- libertine 9mo agoThe saddest part is that while the 90s were severe, Russia could have changed for the better.. and the worst part is neighboring countries are suffering along with it. There was a failure of institutional reform - in fact the only institution that seemed to have reformed was corruption, which changed from one elite to another. A lot of the current state propaganda tries really hard to spin the narrative "democratic reform never again, look at the 90s"! Like if democracy is something easy, and plug and play... Or like there's some magical impediment that doesn't allow Russians to go from serfdom to free citizens, as if it's too much for them. For how many centuries did France iterate to implement democracy? The US had a brutal civil war. Japan had to pick itself up after WW2 and change part of the culture. Germany had to be rebuilt. Now we're witnessing another upcoming 90s in Russia - who knows if it will be worse since Russia folded into a regional power. Such a missed opportunity right next to a growing European Union, and China.
- alexejb 9mo agoYou should look into "shock therapy" and how western powers advised the Russian government at the time. Also how oligarchs came to power from the late 80s to the late 90s. Russia experienced unhinged free market reforms applied by incompetent politicians and opportunists who managed to sell out the accumulated wealth of the former RSFSR in just a few years. I don't see how neighboring countries are "suffering along" – e.g. Ukraine got all its debts forgiven and inherited specialized industries which were subsidized by Russia during soviet times. They had 25 years to make something out of it and did basically nothing. We'll see how the European Union will "grow" in the next years...
- wiseowise 9mo ago> I don't see how neighboring countries are "suffering along" – e.g. Ukraine got all its debts forgiven and inherited specialized industries which were subsidized by Russia during soviet times. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Ukrainian_war https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Ukrainian_war https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Chechen_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Chechen_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Chechen_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Chechen_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Abkhazia_(1992%E2%80%931993) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Abkhazia_(1992%E2%80%93... And many more here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_battles_involving_Russia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_battles_involving_Russ... And all that ignoring the puppeteering they’re trying to do in post Soviet republics.
- lnsru 9mo agoJust one thing: the western semiconductors went illegally to Soviet Union through German Democratic Republic. That’s why area about Dresden is called Silicon Saxony and from my viewpoint is doing fine right now. There was no Intel in Soviet Union. No Traitorous eight. Only talented guys trying to copy last generation western parts or working on workarounds while the west was innovating. The backwardness accumulated in Soviet Union over time in semiconductor design and manufacturing areas and the whole industry became obsolete. You couldn’t see it in the other side of the pond or Iron Curtain. Many novel Soviet things were happening outside of current russia. I think, Ukraine was big in ship and plane building, but that’s not my domain.
- Quarrel 9mo agoDespite what some of the replies say, it isn't because of their fall, but because we beleived the stories of their rise. In the 1960s, some American economists were starting to argue & beleive that "communism" was just a better economic model. Then it all came to a crashing halt. Once you get past the basics of industrialising serfs, ie they started from a sadly much lower starting point than most Western economies of the time, and account for the compound growth the West had gone through in the 18th & 19th centuries, and then are finally able to look past their Potemkin villages of the 20th century, they were left with no way to proceed. No market signals, no major improvements in consumption. Yes, they had a large (miltary focused) industrial sector, and a large primary economy (as they do now), but their bureaucracy, nepotism & corruption were always going to catch up with them. Without economic growth, as they got through the 'easy' phases of industrialisation, the periphery was always going to be a problem, then the core. I'm not sure the "fully dependent on China" slight is needed though, as it could apply to a good chunk of the West at this point. Still, as Europe has learnt with reliance on Russia, these things can be at least factored in.
- rayiner 9mo agoIt’s because the soviets were investing the full output of their nation in the military and space program to sprint forward on that front. While the U.S. was doing all that as just a side hustle.
- ihqtedumpcucks 9mo ago[flagged]
- alexejb 9mo agothen just read some history books from different perspectives and make you own conclusions. it's rather baffling to see how many tech people on hn are die hard believers of old clichés and western war propaganda.
- poontangbot 9mo agoCommunism socialism. Does it every time.
- usrnm 9mo agoYou're not surprised the same happened to every other large empire in history, but the USSR baffles you? What about the British Empire? Dutch? France? Austria-Hungary, ffs? The same will happen to the US one day.
- eleitl 9mo agoThe 1990s happened. And a lot happened in the last quarter century, so you should update yor world model (preferably without resorting to MSM propaganda). As to why why Russia, China, Iran and North Korea are sticking together, it is because they they don't want to hang separately. As to why the West has lost its proxy war against a petty regional player, that is something for the history books.
- AnimalMuppet 9mo ago"Has lost?" Objection, your honor. Assumes facts not in evidence.
- deleted 9mo ago[deleted]
- Svoka 9mo agoWesterner's fascination with russia is what baffles me. Only 'special' weapon russia has is a disregard to human life westerners can't even comprehend for some reason. They call it 'winter' or some other silly thing. All their 'achievements' can be traced to inhumane treatment of enslaved peoples. Whatever achievement you think russia had - you just just lift the top soil, no need to dig deep, to be absolutely disgusted by what it was built on. Ukraine is not weaker, it is smaller. Big difference. It was a powerhouse of the USSR, producing majority of talent. Be it in Ukraine or deported to Siberia. Russia is, and always was, a parasite on other peoples.
- orthoxerox 9mo agoThe USSR spent its demographic and industrial transition on this. When you have a booming population and a low industrial base, you can squeeze the people a lot harder: they still see that their lives are improving and the lives of their children will improve even more. This means you can continuously consume their savings via inflation, stoking the national economy. South Korea famously did this very well, turning from a war-torn former dominion of Japan into an industrial and cultural powerhouse. The Soviets went all-in on building a military-industrial complex without growing their civilian economy, basically eating all the gains their growing population provided. Very charitably, you could say they went all-in, expecting to win the conflict with the West and get their economies "for free", but badly miscalculated their chances.
- LordHeini 9mo agoDon't confuse the soviet union with Russia. In the Soviet union only half the population was Russian. 15% of the Soviets where Ukrainian for example
- nnynny23 9mo agoAh yes, the good old “everything good from the Soviet Union was because of non-Russian soviets and everything bad about was because of the Russian soviets”. It’s astounding that open bigotry is tolerated here.
- wiseowise 9mo agoRussian victim complex is so strong that mentioning other nationalities within Soviet Union is “bigotry” and “Russophobia”.
- dgudkov 9mo agoOne of the mistakes in viewing Russia/USSR is applying similar social/cultural patterns typical for the Western civilization. But they are a very different culture and mentality. Their space achievements are an impressive proof of how far one can go in faking progress at scale by massive technology theft, enslavement, and violence. You can really achieve a lot this way! Rockets and nuclear devices have been designed by captured Nazi scientists and imprisoned engineers (later designs by home-grown engineers have been largely based on those designs). Key technologies were not invented but stolen, copied, and reverse-engineered. Factories designed and built by US design bureaus (before WW2). Cheap labour provided by enslaved peasants who didn't even have the freedom to move to a big city. Borders closed to prevent brain outflow. And lots lots of violence against their own people just for the sake of "looking like a global power". And since it was always fake, no major technology went out of the USSR and became widespread globally such as computers, networks, internet, software stacks, protocols, etc. Nothing major and widely useful came out of the USSR or post-USSR Russia. So what you see with Russia happening now, is just the bubble popping. Long due.
- mhh__ 9mo agoRussia is doing pretty well for a country fully dependant on china, then. It's a ridiculous country in some ways but given what you've said ironic it's one of the few that is genuinely self-sufficient in many regards.
- dh2022 9mo agoJust wait 10 years. If the EU decides not to forget this Ukrainian war then the EU will not do business with Russia for a generation. In that case Russia will be proper fucked.