4 ms·

If the Obama Administration started regularly deleting tweets and removing things from Google search results, a pretty big chunk of the American people would be

by wilfra 14y ago

If the Obama Administration started regularly deleting tweets and removing things from Google search results, a pretty big chunk of the American people would be really pissed off about that - including the Supreme Court and most Attorneys General. And people would vigorously hunt down the information that was being hidden from them. Generally speaking, this is not the case in China. The people know this is being done, don't really care and don't go out of their way to learn the truth. Ultimately I guess thats why they can get away with it. If this were something the average Chinese person got really angry about, it would never work. They'd have another revolution on their hands.

ihsw 14y ago
They already do it with torrent websites and nobody cares, how much of a stretch is other politically inconvenient sites being unilaterally blocked?
- nicholas_tuzzio 14y ago
  Said torrenting sites are by and large against the laws of the US and many other nations and shouldn't be compared to the NYT.
  - fijal 14y ago
    I'm sure NYT is at odds with the laws of China by publishing things that blatantly (and I'm sure falsely) accuse the ruling elite. That does not mean they should be compared. However, your argument is flawed (and you can do much better than this to prove why they should not be compared).
  - jarek 14y ago
    Defaming sovereign leaders is against the laws of many other nations - laws as popular as Anglo-Saxon copyright laws.
  - smokeyj 14y ago
    > torrenting sites are by and large against the laws of the US Right. We have free speech as long as it's legal. Just like the Chinese.
    - redwood 14y ago
      Blargh... yes and no. Nothing torrentable is explicitely bannable in the US... it's just that some methods of attaining the media are being banned. I'm not sure but I suspect the Chinese government could ban physical copies of the NYT as well as the web portal and no one would be able to do anything about it. This is not true in the US. You know I see this a lot: we have valid grievances in the US, absolutely. But we also need to be able to see our own issues within a greater world context. There is a massive spectrum and we should be very grateful for the freedom we have and institutions that enable it. If we conflate what we've got with places that truly have materially less freedom, we risk not being able to fight the most important battles.
      - smokeyj 14y ago
        The discussion is about attitudes towards censorship. The point of my comment was that Americans are willing to accept censorship, as long as it's "legal". And I think history is on my side. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_the_United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_the_United_States
        redwood 14y ago
        Again: there's a difference between - blocking an [avenue] to information where other avenues exist, and - blocking information
        redwood 14y ago
        Press Freedom Index scores: - United States: 14 - China: 136 Let's not lose focus of this very drastic difference. Sure 14 is too high, but it's not appropriate to bring it up in the context of China, in my opinion. But then, I shouldn't censor you, should i?
  - JakeSc 14y ago
    Why not? NYT has now been deemed "illegal" in the eyes of Chinese rulers, just as these torrent sites have been deemed "illegal" in the eyes of US rulers. Both cases are forms of speech. Neither is free.
    - seanmcdirmid 14y ago
      It is not deemed illegal in China, there is no transparent policy to blocking sites. If you call a Chinese ISP and ask them why Facebook isn't working, they'll tell you it must be Facebook's fault.
  - ihsw 14y ago
    It's not difficult to argue that torrenting websites -- and ThePirateBay in particular -- are treated particularly harshly due to their obstinate flouting of American civil law, in addition to so quickly dismissing legal challenges to their existence. Or more to the point it is retribution, and punitive measures are imposed as a warning to others. I am by no means arguing for (or against) the concept of IP and the laws surrounding it, however the entire situation leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

by wilfra 14y ago

ihsw 14y ago

They already do it with torrent websites and nobody cares, how much of a stretch is other politically inconvenient sites being unilaterally blocked?

nicholas_tuzzio 14y ago
Said torrenting sites are by and large against the laws of the US and many other nations and shouldn't be compared to the NYT.
- fijal 14y ago
  I'm sure NYT is at odds with the laws of China by publishing things that blatantly (and I'm sure falsely) accuse the ruling elite. That does not mean they should be compared. However, your argument is flawed (and you can do much better than this to prove why they should not be compared).
- jarek 14y ago
  Defaming sovereign leaders is against the laws of many other nations - laws as popular as Anglo-Saxon copyright laws.
- smokeyj 14y ago
  > torrenting sites are by and large against the laws of the US Right. We have free speech as long as it's legal. Just like the Chinese.
  - redwood 14y ago
    Blargh... yes and no. Nothing torrentable is explicitely bannable in the US... it's just that some methods of attaining the media are being banned. I'm not sure but I suspect the Chinese government could ban physical copies of the NYT as well as the web portal and no one would be able to do anything about it. This is not true in the US. You know I see this a lot: we have valid grievances in the US, absolutely. But we also need to be able to see our own issues within a greater world context. There is a massive spectrum and we should be very grateful for the freedom we have and institutions that enable it. If we conflate what we've got with places that truly have materially less freedom, we risk not being able to fight the most important battles.
    - smokeyj 14y ago
      The discussion is about attitudes towards censorship. The point of my comment was that Americans are willing to accept censorship, as long as it's "legal". And I think history is on my side. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_the_United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_the_United_States
      - redwood 14y ago
        Again: there's a difference between - blocking an [avenue] to information where other avenues exist, and - blocking information
      - redwood 14y ago
        Press Freedom Index scores: - United States: 14 - China: 136 Let's not lose focus of this very drastic difference. Sure 14 is too high, but it's not appropriate to bring it up in the context of China, in my opinion. But then, I shouldn't censor you, should i?
- JakeSc 14y ago
  Why not? NYT has now been deemed "illegal" in the eyes of Chinese rulers, just as these torrent sites have been deemed "illegal" in the eyes of US rulers. Both cases are forms of speech. Neither is free.
  - seanmcdirmid 14y ago
    It is not deemed illegal in China, there is no transparent policy to blocking sites. If you call a Chinese ISP and ask them why Facebook isn't working, they'll tell you it must be Facebook's fault.
- ihsw 14y ago
  It's not difficult to argue that torrenting websites -- and ThePirateBay in particular -- are treated particularly harshly due to their obstinate flouting of American civil law, in addition to so quickly dismissing legal challenges to their existence. Or more to the point it is retribution, and punitive measures are imposed as a warning to others. I am by no means arguing for (or against) the concept of IP and the laws surrounding it, however the entire situation leaves a sour taste in my mouth.