5 ms·

"Anti foreigner sentiment"? Dear NYT, try to find an apartment in the EU or Switzerland. At best, you will get a furnished (to circumvent rent caps), overpriced

by krthat1 9mo ago

"Anti foreigner sentiment"? Dear NYT, try to find an apartment in the EU or Switzerland. At best, you will get a furnished (to circumvent rent caps), overpriced 30 square meter dump that takes up 40% of your net salary. Once that problem is solved, we can talk about "sentiments".

outside1234 9mo ago
So what you are saying is that these places have not built enough housing. That sounds like the actual problem, not the population size.
- api 9mo ago
  “We will do literally anything to make housing more affordable except build more of it.” Forget where I first saw that but it’s absolutely true. The left will try rent control, subsidies, taxes and prohibitions against speculation, banning AirBnB, etc. The right will try mass deportations and population caps. Nobody will build more housing because that would work, and home owners are incentivized not to do anything that would work, and homeowners vote in much larger numbers. The problem won’t be solved until renters out vote homeowners and until everyone who wants more affordable housing stops advocating the solutions that will not work.
  - kelseyfrog 9mo ago
    How? I can't seem to affect any control the factors that constraint housing. I want to build more, but short of becoming a developer myself, I'm powerless. Even if I were a developer, I'd likely be subject to the same structural forces.
    - api 9mo ago
      The main impediments are density limits, zoning, onerous permitting requirements, lawsuits from NIMBY groups to block everything, and so on. The entire developed world is basically a big housing cartel where existing home owners work to limit supply to keep the price high.
      - kelseyfrog 9mo ago
        It feels like the most effective strategy is to Simple Sabotage[1] Field Manual the NIMBY groups. Am I picking up what you're putting down? 1. https://www.cia.gov/static/5c875f3ec660e092cf893f60b4a288df/SimpleSabotage.pdf https://www.cia.gov/static/5c875f3ec660e092cf893f60b4a288df/...
  - gizmondo 9mo ago
    In Switzerland most people rent, in Zurich/Geneva it's more than 80% of inhabitants, doesn't help one bit. I kid you not, we have the renter association that is working tirelessly to prevent new construction.
    - api 9mo ago
      I guess the motives are not just financial. They’re also just general opposition to change. There was this weird period after WWII where we built tons of housing. It was a major factor in building the largest middle class in human history. Then we stopped.
- rendang 9mo ago
  I support YIMBYism for ones own countrymen but I don't see the need to fit as many people as possible in your country. A Switzerland with 25 million people will be a worse place to live regardless of whether the housing supply keeps up
  - kelseyfrog 9mo ago
    Only the market can decide what's better or worse. Revealed preference is truer than words.
    - ndriscoll 9mo ago
      Wouldn't a referendum to limit immigration be the way to reveal their preference? Obviously immigrants would tautologically prefer to move there. How is a citizen to "vote" against that via the market? Discriminate and refuse to rent/sell to any immigrants? Charge them more to try to offset their perceived loss of utility? What portion of the country is even in a position to be asked the question via the market?
      - kelseyfrog 9mo ago
        No, because money is the only thing that measures value. People vote against their interests all the time.
        ndriscoll 9mo ago
        Again, how is money supposed to measure value here? Are people supposed to look into whether every company interacts with immigrants in any way and then boycott them if they do? The only avenue I see is for people to look at the aggregate economic benefits of immigration and then decide to limit it anyway, effectively treating the opportunity cost as the price they're willing to pay.
        kelseyfrog 9mo ago
        Money measures value numerically. Yes.
snowpid 9mo ago
im not sure about Switzerland, but there are areas in Germany, where you can.
- spwa4 9mo ago
  I doubt that very much. Sure there's places where the rent is less, but there's no jobs there. So a very low rent will still be over 40% of your pay (ie. nothing)
  - lukan 9mo ago
    Then maybe actually check places yourself? I am looking at a 4 room apartment in a very nice villa next to a small national park right now, for 560€, with a train going twice an hour 15 minutes ride to the town with my potential next job. (In germany) So salaries there are lower, but so is apparently rent. Way less than 40%, more like 20%.
    - KellyCriterion 9mo ago
      Could you please send name of city and district? Maybe in eastern germany, yes; Chemnitz is cheap. But most cities are by far not that cheap.
      - lukan 9mo ago
        Yes, most cities are not cheap, but I am also not a city person so the place is in a remote village, but well connected. And no, not naming that concrete place as I really like to move there (again), but it is in western saxony so not that far from chemnitz (a town I don't like so much, the job itself is in a small town).
        KellyCriterion 9mo ago
        Ah, yes, as guessed: The region there is quite cheap - in Chemnitz there was a 2 room apartment for 350 EUR (including heating), fully furnished, at the city/castle pond: Excellent price, but the disctrict was not that great.
alephnerd 9mo ago
Maybe work on changing zoning laws instead of pandering to farmers and rural cantons?
- hypeatei 9mo ago
  It's much easier to blame the out group for your issues. The US currently has a sizable percentage of people that believe ICE deportations are going to lower housing prices, for example.
  - frumplestlatz 9mo ago
    Does supply and demand apply or not? Building houses increases supply. Deportations reduce demand.
    - bdangubic 9mo ago
      demand for what exactly?! 1 bedroom houses that sleep 37?
    - hypeatei 9mo ago
      Immigrants make up 32.5% of construction workers[0] so without them we're unable to build new housing unless you have a solution to the falling birth rate and human capital. Also, they're more likely to reside with extended family or non-family members[1] (i.e. not eating up single family home supply) So yes, while they might have some effect on housing supply, deporting them won't make a dent in prices. If you believe that deportations = cheaper houses, then I have a bridge to sell you. Too many localities have strict building regulations that artifically keep housing prices inflated; deportations won't do anything to fix that. 0: https://www.nahb.org/advocacy/industry-issues/labor-and-employment/immigration-reform-is-key-to-building-a-skilled-workforce/concentration-of-immigration-in-construction-trades https://www.nahb.org/advocacy/industry-issues/labor-and-empl... 1: https://news.cornell.edu/stories/2019/02/living-arrangements-dreamers-are-more-complex-less-stable-study-shows https://news.cornell.edu/stories/2019/02/living-arrangements...
- toomuchtodo 9mo ago
thrance 9mo ago
Sure, apartments in Paris are overpriced because of immigrants buying them all. Fuck, that is so stupid. The same people parroting this anti-foreigners hate are also completely indifferent to slumlords profiteering on housing, and will support politicians who consistently side with landlords and homeowners over tenants and first buyers. Housing has never become more affordable under a right wing government.
- happytoexplain 9mo ago
  This is a particularly egregious case of the "same people" fallacy.
  - thrance 9mo ago
    Explain how. All the anti-immigration guys I've ever met were right-wingers. And we know the right's position on housing: never do anything that would devalue housing, never anger homeowners, always side with landlords, etc.
    - constantius 9mo ago
      I don't know whether I'd call myself anti-immigration, but I'm as left as they come and I don't think that being pro-immigration is a left/right value. You can be on the left and have objections to immigration, you can be on the right and welcome immigration. I invite you to read the book [How Migration Really Works](https://goodreads.com/book/show/82005192-how-migration-really-works https://goodreads.com/book/show/82005192-how-migration-reall...). Most people think that being anti-immigration equals being racist and wanting refugees to be turned away. And given your comment, that is also what you seem to believe. However, the large majority of immigration is state-sanctioned (so work visas, etc.), is not the immigration you hear about in the news or that racists talk about, and it's neither a left nor a right issue. Immigration does have economic benefits, but I'm certain you'll agree nothing in the world is only good or only bad. Immigration does lead to larger competition on housing (more people = more demand), and generally this happens in the cities where the housing crisis is the worst. So more immigration undoubtedly benefits landlords. Immigration also means more competition for jobs, which leads in practice to lower wages. So it also benefits capital-owners. So you can be leftist, campaign to increase intake of refugees, campaign against the housing crisis and wealth inequality, and be against immigration. As an example that might change your opinion (beyond talking to a leftist who does not think immigration is nothing but good): when the Tories came to power after Brexit, they implemented policies that greatly facilitated immigration (2-4 times yearly intake to what it was before Brexit) [0]. Corporations and the right are very much pro-immigration. Would you have expected that? [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_immigration_to_the_United_Kingdom#Post-withdrawal_from_the_EU https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_immigration_to_the_Unit...
donkeybeer 9mo ago
Immigrants must have an immense power over these countries if they are able to forcibly prevent the construction of new housing.

by krthat1 9mo ago

outside1234 9mo ago

So what you are saying is that these places have not built enough housing. That sounds like the actual problem, not the population size.

api 9mo ago
“We will do literally anything to make housing more affordable except build more of it.” Forget where I first saw that but it’s absolutely true. The left will try rent control, subsidies, taxes and prohibitions against speculation, banning AirBnB, etc. The right will try mass deportations and population caps. Nobody will build more housing because that would work, and home owners are incentivized not to do anything that would work, and homeowners vote in much larger numbers. The problem won’t be solved until renters out vote homeowners and until everyone who wants more affordable housing stops advocating the solutions that will not work.
- kelseyfrog 9mo ago
  How? I can't seem to affect any control the factors that constraint housing. I want to build more, but short of becoming a developer myself, I'm powerless. Even if I were a developer, I'd likely be subject to the same structural forces.
  - api 9mo ago
    The main impediments are density limits, zoning, onerous permitting requirements, lawsuits from NIMBY groups to block everything, and so on. The entire developed world is basically a big housing cartel where existing home owners work to limit supply to keep the price high.
    - kelseyfrog 9mo ago
      It feels like the most effective strategy is to Simple Sabotage[1] Field Manual the NIMBY groups. Am I picking up what you're putting down? 1. https://www.cia.gov/static/5c875f3ec660e092cf893f60b4a288df/SimpleSabotage.pdf https://www.cia.gov/static/5c875f3ec660e092cf893f60b4a288df/...
- gizmondo 9mo ago
  In Switzerland most people rent, in Zurich/Geneva it's more than 80% of inhabitants, doesn't help one bit. I kid you not, we have the renter association that is working tirelessly to prevent new construction.
  - api 9mo ago
    I guess the motives are not just financial. They’re also just general opposition to change. There was this weird period after WWII where we built tons of housing. It was a major factor in building the largest middle class in human history. Then we stopped.
rendang 9mo ago
I support YIMBYism for ones own countrymen but I don't see the need to fit as many people as possible in your country. A Switzerland with 25 million people will be a worse place to live regardless of whether the housing supply keeps up
- kelseyfrog 9mo ago
  Only the market can decide what's better or worse. Revealed preference is truer than words.
  - ndriscoll 9mo ago
    Wouldn't a referendum to limit immigration be the way to reveal their preference? Obviously immigrants would tautologically prefer to move there. How is a citizen to "vote" against that via the market? Discriminate and refuse to rent/sell to any immigrants? Charge them more to try to offset their perceived loss of utility? What portion of the country is even in a position to be asked the question via the market?
    - kelseyfrog 9mo ago
      No, because money is the only thing that measures value. People vote against their interests all the time.
      - ndriscoll 9mo ago
        Again, how is money supposed to measure value here? Are people supposed to look into whether every company interacts with immigrants in any way and then boycott them if they do? The only avenue I see is for people to look at the aggregate economic benefits of immigration and then decide to limit it anyway, effectively treating the opportunity cost as the price they're willing to pay.
        kelseyfrog 9mo ago
        Money measures value numerically. Yes.

snowpid 9mo ago

im not sure about Switzerland, but there are areas in Germany, where you can.

spwa4 9mo ago
I doubt that very much. Sure there's places where the rent is less, but there's no jobs there. So a very low rent will still be over 40% of your pay (ie. nothing)
- lukan 9mo ago
  Then maybe actually check places yourself? I am looking at a 4 room apartment in a very nice villa next to a small national park right now, for 560€, with a train going twice an hour 15 minutes ride to the town with my potential next job. (In germany) So salaries there are lower, but so is apparently rent. Way less than 40%, more like 20%.
  - KellyCriterion 9mo ago
    Could you please send name of city and district? Maybe in eastern germany, yes; Chemnitz is cheap. But most cities are by far not that cheap.
    - lukan 9mo ago
      Yes, most cities are not cheap, but I am also not a city person so the place is in a remote village, but well connected. And no, not naming that concrete place as I really like to move there (again), but it is in western saxony so not that far from chemnitz (a town I don't like so much, the job itself is in a small town).
      - KellyCriterion 9mo ago
        Ah, yes, as guessed: The region there is quite cheap - in Chemnitz there was a 2 room apartment for 350 EUR (including heating), fully furnished, at the city/castle pond: Excellent price, but the disctrict was not that great.

alephnerd 9mo ago

Maybe work on changing zoning laws instead of pandering to farmers and rural cantons?

hypeatei 9mo ago
It's much easier to blame the out group for your issues. The US currently has a sizable percentage of people that believe ICE deportations are going to lower housing prices, for example.
- frumplestlatz 9mo ago
  Does supply and demand apply or not? Building houses increases supply. Deportations reduce demand.
  - bdangubic 9mo ago
    demand for what exactly?! 1 bedroom houses that sleep 37?
  - hypeatei 9mo ago
    Immigrants make up 32.5% of construction workers[0] so without them we're unable to build new housing unless you have a solution to the falling birth rate and human capital. Also, they're more likely to reside with extended family or non-family members[1] (i.e. not eating up single family home supply) So yes, while they might have some effect on housing supply, deporting them won't make a dent in prices. If you believe that deportations = cheaper houses, then I have a bridge to sell you. Too many localities have strict building regulations that artifically keep housing prices inflated; deportations won't do anything to fix that. 0: https://www.nahb.org/advocacy/industry-issues/labor-and-employment/immigration-reform-is-key-to-building-a-skilled-workforce/concentration-of-immigration-in-construction-trades https://www.nahb.org/advocacy/industry-issues/labor-and-empl... 1: https://news.cornell.edu/stories/2019/02/living-arrangements-dreamers-are-more-complex-less-stable-study-shows https://news.cornell.edu/stories/2019/02/living-arrangements...
toomuchtodo 9mo ago

thrance 9mo ago

Sure, apartments in Paris are overpriced because of immigrants buying them all. Fuck, that is so stupid. The same people parroting this anti-foreigners hate are also completely indifferent to slumlords profiteering on housing, and will support politicians who consistently side with landlords and homeowners over tenants and first buyers. Housing has never become more affordable under a right wing government.

happytoexplain 9mo ago
This is a particularly egregious case of the "same people" fallacy.
- thrance 9mo ago
  Explain how. All the anti-immigration guys I've ever met were right-wingers. And we know the right's position on housing: never do anything that would devalue housing, never anger homeowners, always side with landlords, etc.
  - constantius 9mo ago
    I don't know whether I'd call myself anti-immigration, but I'm as left as they come and I don't think that being pro-immigration is a left/right value. You can be on the left and have objections to immigration, you can be on the right and welcome immigration. I invite you to read the book [How Migration Really Works](https://goodreads.com/book/show/82005192-how-migration-really-works https://goodreads.com/book/show/82005192-how-migration-reall...). Most people think that being anti-immigration equals being racist and wanting refugees to be turned away. And given your comment, that is also what you seem to believe. However, the large majority of immigration is state-sanctioned (so work visas, etc.), is not the immigration you hear about in the news or that racists talk about, and it's neither a left nor a right issue. Immigration does have economic benefits, but I'm certain you'll agree nothing in the world is only good or only bad. Immigration does lead to larger competition on housing (more people = more demand), and generally this happens in the cities where the housing crisis is the worst. So more immigration undoubtedly benefits landlords. Immigration also means more competition for jobs, which leads in practice to lower wages. So it also benefits capital-owners. So you can be leftist, campaign to increase intake of refugees, campaign against the housing crisis and wealth inequality, and be against immigration. As an example that might change your opinion (beyond talking to a leftist who does not think immigration is nothing but good): when the Tories came to power after Brexit, they implemented policies that greatly facilitated immigration (2-4 times yearly intake to what it was before Brexit) [0]. Corporations and the right are very much pro-immigration. Would you have expected that? [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_immigration_to_the_United_Kingdom#Post-withdrawal_from_the_EU https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_immigration_to_the_Unit...

donkeybeer 9mo ago

Immigrants must have an immense power over these countries if they are able to forcibly prevent the construction of new housing.