4 ms·

How much data do you want to preserve? I know it sounds “boring” but it is hard to beat a good acid-free archival paper printed with a good quality ink. Stored

by krisoft 8mo ago

How much data do you want to preserve? I know it sounds “boring” but it is hard to beat a good acid-free archival paper printed with a good quality ink. Stored in the right circumstances (not too humid, dark place, not on fire) it should last half a millennia easily. It is also pretty much guaranteed that whatever happens we will have the technology to read it again. Exotics like laser engraved metal plates or ceramics might be better if you have a lot of data and can’t guarantee your storage will be fire and flood free. If you don’t have a lot of data you can also think of engraving it into stone or press it into a clay tablet and fire it. These mediums are known to be very stable even in adverse circumstances.

catapart 8mo ago
Right on. Simple text/encoded strings weren't really on my mind while imagining the more complicated solution, but you're right that data is probably best preserved with just "printing" rather than 3d printing. I didn't have an amount in mind, I was just kind of wondering about the hobbyist aspect. Like if I woke up one day and realized I need to archive something and my most readily available tool was a 3d printer, would I have to come up with my own scheme, or has someone already done it?
- MengerSponge 8mo ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30820836 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30820836 OPTAR: 2016 https://ronja.twibright.com/optar/ https://ronja.twibright.com/optar/
  - yjftsjthsd-h 8mo ago
    That reminds me a lot of a QR code, but extended. At which point, I have to ask: Why not just use QR codes? They have the advantage of being ubiquitous, although I'm very open to the idea that they have disadvantages or leave improvements on the table.
    - MengerSponge 8mo ago
      The main advantage is information density. QR codes dedicate a lot of real estate to error correction, but the protocol is really optimized for a few words, not kilobytes at a time. It's also a problem if you need to segment your datastream onto multiple pages You've got to define a protocol for your stack of QR codes with that new encoding
weinzierl 8mo ago
If you do not have a lot of data, carving it in stone and hiding it in some desert might give the best results.
amelius 8mo ago
Embed it in the DNA of a cockroach.
- Beijinger 8mo ago
  Not a good idea. Since the DNA has no use for the organism, you work against evolutionary pressure and energetic efficiency.
  - amelius 8mo ago
    Pro-tip: use sections of mitochondrial junk DNA.
    - Beijinger 8mo ago
      OK. Junk is not important. Why should it be stable? What is the driving force against random mutations?
fainpul 8mo ago
How about b/w laser printers? Since black toner is made of carbon black and plastic, I imagine it has an extremely long lifespan.
- fhdkweig 8mo ago
  Beware flaking toner. I don't know if it flakes due to age or only immediately after printing. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=laser+printer+flaking https://duckduckgo.com/?q=laser+printer+flaking
- krisoft 8mo ago
  I do not know. But the best evidence of something surviving for 500 years is looking at things which have survived that long already. Laser printers were first invented in the 70s. So the oldest surviving laser printed pages are like 50 years old. You can of course do things like accelerated aging tests, or reasoning from chemical composition, which can give you ideas. But to be certain it is better to be conservative. With inks we have more experience. We have plenty of 500 years old books and through the years we learned better what survives and what causes problems. Now of course that doesn’t mean that every ink will be better. Just that there is a better chance that the best inks, specifically formulated for longevity will perform better than the best laser prints. That plus inks penetrate into the paper while laser prints are baked onto the fibers. Which i feel is better for staying there long term. But who knows. Maybe there will be an archivist in 2100 on the moon cursing my name for suggesting inks instead of laser prints. Maybe by then it will be clear that properly formulated tonner is actually better. In some sense only time will tell.

by krisoft 8mo ago

catapart 8mo ago

Right on. Simple text/encoded strings weren't really on my mind while imagining the more complicated solution, but you're right that data is probably best preserved with just "printing" rather than 3d printing. I didn't have an amount in mind, I was just kind of wondering about the hobbyist aspect. Like if I woke up one day and realized I need to archive something and my most readily available tool was a 3d printer, would I have to come up with my own scheme, or has someone already done it?

MengerSponge 8mo ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30820836 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30820836 OPTAR: 2016 https://ronja.twibright.com/optar/ https://ronja.twibright.com/optar/
- yjftsjthsd-h 8mo ago
  That reminds me a lot of a QR code, but extended. At which point, I have to ask: Why not just use QR codes? They have the advantage of being ubiquitous, although I'm very open to the idea that they have disadvantages or leave improvements on the table.
  - MengerSponge 8mo ago
    The main advantage is information density. QR codes dedicate a lot of real estate to error correction, but the protocol is really optimized for a few words, not kilobytes at a time. It's also a problem if you need to segment your datastream onto multiple pages You've got to define a protocol for your stack of QR codes with that new encoding

weinzierl 8mo ago

If you do not have a lot of data, carving it in stone and hiding it in some desert might give the best results.

amelius 8mo ago

Embed it in the DNA of a cockroach.

Beijinger 8mo ago
Not a good idea. Since the DNA has no use for the organism, you work against evolutionary pressure and energetic efficiency.
- amelius 8mo ago
  Pro-tip: use sections of mitochondrial junk DNA.
  - Beijinger 8mo ago
    OK. Junk is not important. Why should it be stable? What is the driving force against random mutations?

fainpul 8mo ago

How about b/w laser printers? Since black toner is made of carbon black and plastic, I imagine it has an extremely long lifespan.

fhdkweig 8mo ago
Beware flaking toner. I don't know if it flakes due to age or only immediately after printing. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=laser+printer+flaking https://duckduckgo.com/?q=laser+printer+flaking
krisoft 8mo ago
I do not know. But the best evidence of something surviving for 500 years is looking at things which have survived that long already. Laser printers were first invented in the 70s. So the oldest surviving laser printed pages are like 50 years old. You can of course do things like accelerated aging tests, or reasoning from chemical composition, which can give you ideas. But to be certain it is better to be conservative. With inks we have more experience. We have plenty of 500 years old books and through the years we learned better what survives and what causes problems. Now of course that doesn’t mean that every ink will be better. Just that there is a better chance that the best inks, specifically formulated for longevity will perform better than the best laser prints. That plus inks penetrate into the paper while laser prints are baked onto the fibers. Which i feel is better for staying there long term. But who knows. Maybe there will be an archivist in 2100 on the moon cursing my name for suggesting inks instead of laser prints. Maybe by then it will be clear that properly formulated tonner is actually better. In some sense only time will tell.