7 ms·

Administration working to strip citizenship from foreign-born Americans

70 points by OutOfHere 9mo ago

OutOfHere 9mo ago
Original link: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/immigration/trump-administration-working-expand-effort-strip-citizenship-foreign-b-rcna255427 https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/immigration/trump-administr...
OutOfHere 9mo ago
At this time, no one from abroad who hasn't already immigrated should want to become a US citizen because it means nothing and you could end up stateless and deported to a real hellhole. Also, this is not the bottom; the bottom is worse and further away. Concerned US citizens, whether by birth or by legal immigration, should at this time probably start working on an exit strategy just as a backup. I am not saying this because it's ideal; it's far from ideal, but because one has to be realistic and pragmatic.
- deleted 9mo ago
  [deleted]
- therobots927 9mo ago
  Idk why you’re getting downvoted for this. If watching masked federal agents grabbing kids off bus stops doesn’t make you think twice about living here what would it take? I for one will probably stay but only because I can trace my lineage back very far here but I grow less confident in that every day. It’s clear they aren’t following the constitution which means we are all at some level of risk of getting shipped to a camp.
- plagiarist 9mo ago
  The "first they came for" poem from the looming government pogroms will start with different categories, but have roughly the same content.
cornhole 9mo ago
this is why the second amendment exists
- OutOfHere 9mo ago
  A lot of good it did Alex Jeffrey Pretti, not. They have far bigger guns, more guns, and can track where you are at all times, picking you up when you're very vulnerable, like in the middle of traffic. The 2A helps only when a whole community were to get picked up all at once, which basically never happens. When individuals get picked up one at a time, it is in effect useless. Also, the state-specific interpretation of the 2A doesn't allow concealed carry of compact automatic weapons, and even if it did, it is basically a recipe for self annihilation because there are a lot more of them. Also, there is no way that the people will mass organize to fight ICE violently. This again is because ICE targets individuals, not entire communities.
  - cornhole 9mo ago
    [flagged]
    - superbyte 9mo ago
      [flagged]
      - cornhole 9mo ago
        pot calling the kettle black with that snarky little comment of yours. why do you assume that I have not protested and voted in the same way you have? I have voted democrat in every election I could since I was 18. I participated in protests for occupy wall street and against Donald trump. where did that lead us? to this. something isn’t working. if these people come for my family, all bets are off. i don’t care if no one is coming to save me. no one will make me and my family leave. i will die in america.
        freejazz 9mo ago
rayiner 9mo ago
[flagged]
- OutOfHere 9mo ago
  The problem is that people are detained indefinitely in extremely horrible camps (ICE facilities), essentially concentration camps, and are constantly pressured to self-deport before they get to see a judge who can clear them. It is their gameplay. Think about it happening to you. This is what's inappropriate and wrong. Another serious problem is that the context of fraud is not well defined. Does it pertain to immigration or naturalization fraud, or to a general criminal history, or even to traffic violations? It is intentionally under-specified, open to exploitation, to selective enforcement. As noted in the Smithsonian article you linked, Supreme Court cases in the 1950s and ’60s declared unconstitutional several statutes pertaining to denationalization.
  - rayiner 9mo ago
    > The problem is that people are detained indefinitely in extremely horrible camps (ICE facilities), and are constantly pressured to self-deport before they get to see a judge who can clear them. The law specifically permits detention pending a determination of immigration status, and in some cases requires such detention: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1226 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1226 > Another serious problem is that the context of fraud is not well defined. Does it pertain to immigration or naturalization fraud, or to a general criminal history, or even to traffic violations? It is open to exploitation. The statute says: "It shall be the duty of the United States attorneys for the respective districts, upon affidavit showing good cause therefor, to institute proceedings in any district court of the United States in the judicial district in which the naturalized citizen may reside at the time of bringing suit, for the purpose of revoking and setting aside the order admitting such person to citizenship and canceling the certificate of naturalization on the ground that such order and certificate of naturalization were illegally procured or were procured by concealment of a material fact or by willful misrepresentation, and such revocation and setting aside of the order admitting such person to citizenship and such canceling of certificate of naturalization shall be effective as of the original date of the order and certificate..." 8 USC 1451(a). So it is strictly limited to fraud in obtaining citizenship. But the statute is broad as to what constitutes fraud in procuring citizenship. Any "concealment of a material fact or ... willful misrepresentation" can be grounds for revoking citizenship. > Supreme Court cases in the 1950s and ’60s that declared unconstitutional several statutes pertaining to denationalization. Not ones related to fraud in procuring naturalized status.
pfannkuchen 9mo ago
> 100 to 200 possible cases per month, one of the people familiar with the plans said Headline makes it sound much more significant than it is.
- reverius42 9mo ago
  That's pretty significant if you're one of the people who built a life in the USA only to have it stripped away from you.
  - casefields 9mo ago
    If you committed fraud during your immigration paperwork, such as lie about being a convicted rapist or murderer, you should lose your citizenship.
    - greycol 9mo ago
      Yeah with as much accuracy as the current ICE aktion on US inhabitants... In a perfect system maybe you can justify this, but when the system is ship them off and let them try to appeal that the government had no evidence from overseas then the law is effectively "cost people their job, their lifestyle, and their support system and keep them out of the country for a year or two (or permanently if they don't have savings), if they do anything I don't like"
- igor47 9mo ago
  If it could happen to 100 people per month, it could happen to anyone. This is of course a way to weaponize the system against dissent. I am a naturalized US citizen. If I want to critique the administration, this is a message to me -- am I sure? What if they decide to make an example out of me? Maybe I'd better keep quiet.
  - rayiner 9mo ago
    Literally any law could be used to silence dissenters who have broken that law. That's not an argument against enforcing laws that have been on the books for over a century.
deaux 9mo ago
We of course already knew that NBC is now yet another Party mouthpiece in the mold of the People's Daily, but if you needed confirmation just look at this beautifully contradictory opener (emphasis mine) > WASHINGTON — The Trump administration is dramatically expanding an effort to _revoke U.S. citizenship_ for foreign-born Americans _as it works to curb immigration_ Next up is rounding up citizens into camps as it works to curb immigration, and we all know what comes next as it works to curb immigration. Well, I hope for the citizens that they're married to card-carrying MAGA members highly ranked in the Party, as this is the only thing that matters and gives one a shield.
freejazz 9mo ago
Why?
graybeardhacker 9mo ago
History shows that mass internment and populous movements against a segment of society never end well for the governments that push these tactics. Unfortunately, the damage to the society is often deep and far reaching before the regimes face the consequences.
- OutOfHere 9mo ago
  > mass internment and populous movements against a segment of society never end well for the governments That is a convenient assumption, and while it was been true sometimes, unfortunately it often isn't true. Mass internment has worked very well in El Salvador and China. There's no reason to think it can't continue to work in the US.
1vuio0pswjnm7 9mo ago
https://web.archive.org/web/20260212153704if_/https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/immigration/trump-administration-working-expand-effort-strip-citizenship-foreign-b-rcna255427 https://web.archive.org/web/20260212153704if_/https://www.nb... "A spokesman for USCIS, Matthew Tragesser, said the agency reviews cases of naturalized citizens when there is credible evidence that citizenship was obtained through fraud or misrepresentation. [Is denaturalisation for committing fraud in the application process common in the enforcement of immigration laws of similar countries (rhetorical question)] "We maintain a zero-tolerance policy towards fraud in the naturalization process and will pursue denaturalization proceedings for any individual who lied or misrepresented themselves," he said. ... The Justice Department has already told attorneys to focus on denaturalization cases, and it has offered possible case examples, from "individuals who pose a risk to national security" or who have engaged in war crimes or torture to people who have committed Medicaid or Medicare fraud or have otherwise defrauded the government. Roughly 800,000 people become naturalized citizens every year, according to DHS. To become a naturalized citizen, a candidate must be over 18, already be a legal permanent resident, speak English, know U.S. history and social studies and have "good moral character," according to the Immigration and Naturalization Act. Foreign-born Americans were generally stripped of citizenship only if they were found to have committed fraud during their application processes. In past decades, those cases focused on ferreting out former Nazis who fled to the U.S. after World War II under false pretenses. Both Democratic and Republican administrations have sought to increase investigations, but it's still rare for a reason, a former USCIS official said. [Is fraud in the application process consistent with "good moral character" (rhetorical question)] ... The denaturalization process is lengthy and time-consuming, and there is a high legal bar. Even if the administration makes the push to investigate someone with the aim to denaturalize, it could take years, and a subsequent deportation would take even longer." Republican lawmakers recently introduced a bill that would allow the government to strip citizenship from anyone found to have committed fraud against the government or joined a terrorist group or anyone who is convicted of a serious felony within 10 years of their citizenship."

70 points by OutOfHere 9mo ago

Original link: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/immigration/trump-administration-working-expand-effort-strip-citizenship-foreign-b-rcna255427 https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/immigration/trump-administr...

OutOfHere 9mo ago

At this time, no one from abroad who hasn't already immigrated should want to become a US citizen because it means nothing and you could end up stateless and deported to a real hellhole. Also, this is not the bottom; the bottom is worse and further away. Concerned US citizens, whether by birth or by legal immigration, should at this time probably start working on an exit strategy just as a backup. I am not saying this because it's ideal; it's far from ideal, but because one has to be realistic and pragmatic.

deleted 9mo ago
[deleted]
therobots927 9mo ago
Idk why you’re getting downvoted for this. If watching masked federal agents grabbing kids off bus stops doesn’t make you think twice about living here what would it take? I for one will probably stay but only because I can trace my lineage back very far here but I grow less confident in that every day. It’s clear they aren’t following the constitution which means we are all at some level of risk of getting shipped to a camp.
plagiarist 9mo ago
The "first they came for" poem from the looming government pogroms will start with different categories, but have roughly the same content.

cornhole 9mo ago

this is why the second amendment exists

OutOfHere 9mo ago
A lot of good it did Alex Jeffrey Pretti, not. They have far bigger guns, more guns, and can track where you are at all times, picking you up when you're very vulnerable, like in the middle of traffic. The 2A helps only when a whole community were to get picked up all at once, which basically never happens. When individuals get picked up one at a time, it is in effect useless. Also, the state-specific interpretation of the 2A doesn't allow concealed carry of compact automatic weapons, and even if it did, it is basically a recipe for self annihilation because there are a lot more of them. Also, there is no way that the people will mass organize to fight ICE violently. This again is because ICE targets individuals, not entire communities.
- cornhole 9mo ago
  [flagged]
  - superbyte 9mo ago
    [flagged]
    - cornhole 9mo ago
      pot calling the kettle black with that snarky little comment of yours. why do you assume that I have not protested and voted in the same way you have? I have voted democrat in every election I could since I was 18. I participated in protests for occupy wall street and against Donald trump. where did that lead us? to this. something isn’t working. if these people come for my family, all bets are off. i don’t care if no one is coming to save me. no one will make me and my family leave. i will die in america.
      - freejazz 9mo ago

rayiner 9mo ago

[flagged]

OutOfHere 9mo ago
The problem is that people are detained indefinitely in extremely horrible camps (ICE facilities), essentially concentration camps, and are constantly pressured to self-deport before they get to see a judge who can clear them. It is their gameplay. Think about it happening to you. This is what's inappropriate and wrong. Another serious problem is that the context of fraud is not well defined. Does it pertain to immigration or naturalization fraud, or to a general criminal history, or even to traffic violations? It is intentionally under-specified, open to exploitation, to selective enforcement. As noted in the Smithsonian article you linked, Supreme Court cases in the 1950s and ’60s declared unconstitutional several statutes pertaining to denationalization.
- rayiner 9mo ago
  > The problem is that people are detained indefinitely in extremely horrible camps (ICE facilities), and are constantly pressured to self-deport before they get to see a judge who can clear them. The law specifically permits detention pending a determination of immigration status, and in some cases requires such detention: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1226 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1226 > Another serious problem is that the context of fraud is not well defined. Does it pertain to immigration or naturalization fraud, or to a general criminal history, or even to traffic violations? It is open to exploitation. The statute says: "It shall be the duty of the United States attorneys for the respective districts, upon affidavit showing good cause therefor, to institute proceedings in any district court of the United States in the judicial district in which the naturalized citizen may reside at the time of bringing suit, for the purpose of revoking and setting aside the order admitting such person to citizenship and canceling the certificate of naturalization on the ground that such order and certificate of naturalization were illegally procured or were procured by concealment of a material fact or by willful misrepresentation, and such revocation and setting aside of the order admitting such person to citizenship and such canceling of certificate of naturalization shall be effective as of the original date of the order and certificate..." 8 USC 1451(a). So it is strictly limited to fraud in obtaining citizenship. But the statute is broad as to what constitutes fraud in procuring citizenship. Any "concealment of a material fact or ... willful misrepresentation" can be grounds for revoking citizenship. > Supreme Court cases in the 1950s and ’60s that declared unconstitutional several statutes pertaining to denationalization. Not ones related to fraud in procuring naturalized status.

pfannkuchen 9mo ago

> 100 to 200 possible cases per month, one of the people familiar with the plans said Headline makes it sound much more significant than it is.

reverius42 9mo ago
That's pretty significant if you're one of the people who built a life in the USA only to have it stripped away from you.
- casefields 9mo ago
  If you committed fraud during your immigration paperwork, such as lie about being a convicted rapist or murderer, you should lose your citizenship.
  - greycol 9mo ago
    Yeah with as much accuracy as the current ICE aktion on US inhabitants... In a perfect system maybe you can justify this, but when the system is ship them off and let them try to appeal that the government had no evidence from overseas then the law is effectively "cost people their job, their lifestyle, and their support system and keep them out of the country for a year or two (or permanently if they don't have savings), if they do anything I don't like"
igor47 9mo ago
If it could happen to 100 people per month, it could happen to anyone. This is of course a way to weaponize the system against dissent. I am a naturalized US citizen. If I want to critique the administration, this is a message to me -- am I sure? What if they decide to make an example out of me? Maybe I'd better keep quiet.
- rayiner 9mo ago
  Literally any law could be used to silence dissenters who have broken that law. That's not an argument against enforcing laws that have been on the books for over a century.

deaux 9mo ago

We of course already knew that NBC is now yet another Party mouthpiece in the mold of the People's Daily, but if you needed confirmation just look at this beautifully contradictory opener (emphasis mine) > WASHINGTON — The Trump administration is dramatically expanding an effort to _revoke U.S. citizenship_ for foreign-born Americans _as it works to curb immigration_ Next up is rounding up citizens into camps as it works to curb immigration, and we all know what comes next as it works to curb immigration. Well, I hope for the citizens that they're married to card-carrying MAGA members highly ranked in the Party, as this is the only thing that matters and gives one a shield.

freejazz 9mo ago

Why?

graybeardhacker 9mo ago

History shows that mass internment and populous movements against a segment of society never end well for the governments that push these tactics. Unfortunately, the damage to the society is often deep and far reaching before the regimes face the consequences.

OutOfHere 9mo ago
> mass internment and populous movements against a segment of society never end well for the governments That is a convenient assumption, and while it was been true sometimes, unfortunately it often isn't true. Mass internment has worked very well in El Salvador and China. There's no reason to think it can't continue to work in the US.

1vuio0pswjnm7 9mo ago

https://web.archive.org/web/20260212153704if_/https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/immigration/trump-administration-working-expand-effort-strip-citizenship-foreign-b-rcna255427 https://web.archive.org/web/20260212153704if_/https://www.nb... "A spokesman for USCIS, Matthew Tragesser, said the agency reviews cases of naturalized citizens when there is credible evidence that citizenship was obtained through fraud or misrepresentation. [Is denaturalisation for committing fraud in the application process common in the enforcement of immigration laws of similar countries (rhetorical question)] "We maintain a zero-tolerance policy towards fraud in the naturalization process and will pursue denaturalization proceedings for any individual who lied or misrepresented themselves," he said. ... The Justice Department has already told attorneys to focus on denaturalization cases, and it has offered possible case examples, from "individuals who pose a risk to national security" or who have engaged in war crimes or torture to people who have committed Medicaid or Medicare fraud or have otherwise defrauded the government. Roughly 800,000 people become naturalized citizens every year, according to DHS. To become a naturalized citizen, a candidate must be over 18, already be a legal permanent resident, speak English, know U.S. history and social studies and have "good moral character," according to the Immigration and Naturalization Act. Foreign-born Americans were generally stripped of citizenship only if they were found to have committed fraud during their application processes. In past decades, those cases focused on ferreting out former Nazis who fled to the U.S. after World War II under false pretenses. Both Democratic and Republican administrations have sought to increase investigations, but it's still rare for a reason, a former USCIS official said. [Is fraud in the application process consistent with "good moral character" (rhetorical question)] ... The denaturalization process is lengthy and time-consuming, and there is a high legal bar. Even if the administration makes the push to investigate someone with the aim to denaturalize, it could take years, and a subsequent deportation would take even longer." Republican lawmakers recently introduced a bill that would allow the government to strip citizenship from anyone found to have committed fraud against the government or joined a terrorist group or anyone who is convicted of a serious felony within 10 years of their citizenship."