35 ms·
I don’t get it. Why are artists more deserving than unemployed insurance salespeople or carpet installers?
by tomcam 8mo ago
I don’t get it. Why are artists more deserving than unemployed insurance salespeople or carpet installers?
- socalgal2 8mo agoAgreed. Can just all myself an artist to get other people's tax money?
- crossbody 8mo agothere is art in getting other people's tax money, so yes
- deleted 8mo ago[deleted]
- rpdillon 8mo agoIt seems there are 2000 positions and 8000 applicants. The program cost $74M, but more than paid for itself: > It also recouped more than the trial's net cost of 72 million euros ($86 million) through increases in arts-related expenditure, productivity gains and reduced reliance on other social welfare payments, according to a government-commissioned cost-benefit analysis.
- SoftTalker 8mo agoThey were wise to limit it, otherwise Ireland would see an unprecidented rise in the number of artists in its population.
- RealityVoid 8mo agoOh, the horror.
- ua709 8mo agoIt’s also not permanent. It’s for three years and then once off one can’t apply to the program for another three years. Reminds me of the WPA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Art_Project https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Art_Project
- crossbody 8mo agoAnyone can become an artist with no skill and minimal effort while being a carpet installer requires skill and effort. If you are a carpet installer just call it art and get the money
- OhioMan2943 8mo agothe irony in this statement is palpable
- uoaei 8mo agoOk so why don't carpet installers just find jobs?
- hn_throwaway_99 8mo agoIt's not like Ireland is getting rid of unemployment insurance. And insurance sales and carpet installation are professions where there are jobs that actually pay a living wage. A lot of societies have realized there is value in supporting art and culture. For thousands of years that activity was sponsored by monarchs, royalty and other nobility. Up until actually quite recently, most first world countries without monarchs and nobles also provided substantial support for the arts.
- calvinmorrison 8mo ago> A lot of societies have realized there is value in supporting art and culture. Basically outlandishly rich and gaudy benefactors have always had so much money they could employ OTHERS to do trivial pursuits. Now - the average taxpayer will bear that cost.
- shimman 8mo agoI'm sure if you asked the average tax payer they would prefer programs like these rather than corporate welfare nonsense. So yeah, seems alright to me. I'm a tax payer.
- calvinmorrison 8mo agoi purchase a hell of a lot more stuff from Walmart than I do fine art.
- conception 8mo agoI think what you think this says about you is not what it actually says about you.
- shimman 8mo agoYou're telling me there's more to life than being a consumer?
- 8mo ago
- cousinbryce 8mo agoUnemployed artist still make art
- deleted 8mo ago[deleted]
- garbagewoman 8mo agoThey should get basic income too, good idea
- uoaei 8mo agoWhat kind of undervalued labor do unemployed salespeople and carpet installers perform during unemployment?
- hackable_sand 8mo agoEnjoying art
- uoaei 8mo agoConsumer behavior, unbecoming of wage earners during this zeitgeist. How are the producers of art incentivized?
- assaddayinh 8mo agoThese guys are less stubborn when it comes to ruining your life for some vision?
- m3kw9 8mo agothey do deserve, but looks like this is a pilot for UBI.
- spankibalt 8mo ago> "[...] looks like this is a pilot for UBI." Did you have to be the party pooper? People were trying to indulge one of the most noble and timeless of pursuits: pissing on the poor! >(
- vintermann 8mo agoIf anything, it's a pilot to confuse people about UBI and hopefully make it unpopular. It's not basic, and it's not universal.
- GaryNumanVevo 8mo agoBecause any modern unemployment insurance program (which Ireland has) will be a percentage based on salary. Struggling artist aren't exactly making regular money like a formerly employed salesperson or carpet installer would be.
- lan321 8mo agoNote that many carpet installers and other handyman also do work (partially) under the table so their salary isn't representative of their regular income either. This also fluctuates a lot based on season. It's the cost of being (partially) self employed.
- GaryNumanVevo 8mo agoWhy should the government be asked to cover income that wasn't reported / taxed by an individual? There's a clear process to report income that's non W2 (or equivalent)
- lan321 8mo agoMentioning it since it's mostly the same with small artists. You'll always only report the bare minimum which results in the unemployment $ being rough issue. I'm not in Ireland but it's the same everywhere. No one likes paying taxes. Not saying that anything should be done about it. TBH I'd even like to have unemployment benefits be an optional insurance to reduce my taxes since I haven't gotten a cent out of it yet, but that's separate. Just noting that artists aren't in some unique situation. Nothing is stopping them from opening a company and giving themselves a fixed salary or doing some mix of salaried, freelance and under-table work.
- bummy_commenter 8mo ago[flagged]
- albedoa 8mo ago>I don’t get it. Your bio says: > I'm not trolling. I actually want to know the answer, although my comment may feel less than diplomatic. And so here is the real test. After reading the numerous responses to your question, do you get it?
- s_dev 8mo agoIrish here. It's a cultural thing. Ireland is the only country in the world whose national symbol is a musical instrument. Art is seen as a worthwhile endeavour even if it can't necessarily support itself as a private endeavour. It's for the same reason galleries and museums are subsidised by the government. Anyone can call themselves an artist but to receive this money you would have to have a portfolio of work that is approved by the application programme. Ireland already has a competitive economy. There is more to a country than economics and that includes promoting things like art to foster a sense of identity and promote Ireland on a world stage. Milton Friedman wouldn't approve and we're okay with that.
- tjwebbnorfolk 8mo agoSoon: everyone is an artist.
- Swizec 8mo agoWe have a similar scheme in Slovenia. Don't know the details but there's the concept of a "free artist". At a minimum you need a registered business, regular exhibitions or performances in your field, you have to register with the ministry of culture, and can't have a job. Contract work is allowed and encouraged. Also you are expected to apply when the government issues a Call For Creatives. I think you get paid minimum wage as long as you continue fulfilling criteria.
- pastage 8mo agoInteresting concept, seems like it is a way to pay less taxes as an artist, not really a pay but it will make it easier to live. Not sure about the selection process though.. > Self-employed in culture can be given the right to pay social security contributions from the state budget. https://e-uprava.gov.si/si/podrocja/izobrazevanje-kultura/zaposleni-v-kulturi/pravica-do-placila-prispevkov-za-socialno-varnost.html?utm_source=chatgpt.com&lang=si https://e-uprava.gov.si/si/podrocja/izobrazevanje-kultura/za...
- trinix912 8mo ago
- RupertSalt 8mo agoNow look at them yo-yos, that's the way you do it You play the guitar on the MTV That ain't workin', that's the way you do it Money for nothin' and your chicks for free We got to install microwave ovens, custom kitchen delivery We got to move these refrigerators, we got to move these Color TVs... Dire Straits, Money for Nothing, 1985 Guest artist: Sting https://www.musixmatch.com/lyrics/Dire-Straits/Money-for-Nothing-Remastered https://www.musixmatch.com/lyrics/Dire-Straits/Money-for-Not...
- osener 8mo agoI understand your perspective. However, those trades, and most work in general, differ from art. Art is vital to our society, yet the current reward system optimizes for the worst art and the worst people. We need more art that pushes boundaries and remains controversial. Instead, we favor the type of artist who attracts the most attention through their personality, whether because of their looks or a manufactured edgy image, while producing mundane, lowest-common-denominator work. We must support contemporary artists who move us forward rather than remaining stuck in popularity contests or constant nostalgia. Under the current system, it is almost inevitable that influencers use their status to promote gambling ads and NFTs, ruining the lives of their fans. We need to break this cycle of rewarding increasingly poor behavior while making it harder for independent artists to earn a living.
- smcleod 8mo agoI suspect it's a mix of trying to keep the arts (including music) alive, especially with all the big streaming services taking what would have been some of their profits in the past and - the likes of sales people don't directly do good for society (or at least, not all/most of them) - the world has more than enough sales people trying to get people to spend money, where as there's good research to show the value of investing in the arts.
- padjo 8mo agoA single well made piece of art can have a profound impact on society for generations. A well laid carpet is... Just a well laid carpet.
- lbreakjai 8mo agoNone of these 2000 artists will create anything close to a single piece of art having any sort of effect on society. I can guarantee it. I worked in "culture" for a while when I was younger. 90% of it is just disguised unemployment benefits for those that consider it a dirty word barely good enough for the hoi polloi.
- padjo 8mo agoYou can't guarantee it. Maybe you think you can but you can't.
- qsera 8mo agoIf you find yourself alone in an Island, who would you want with you among the trades you listed?
- Ekaros 8mo agoCarpet installer? Most likely handy enough for building shelter and in general manual labour.
- qsera 8mo agoGood for you! You will live long, but I will have more fun.
- Ekaros 8mo agoDying the next day? Bold choice. But you do you.
- qsera 8mo ago> Dying the next day? Bold choice. No, I can figure out how to build a shelter. But I can't figure out how to be an artist. So if you are so grossly incompetent that you can't figure out how to build a shelter to save your life, sure take your carpet installer and enjoy your hundred years of boredom.
- tgv 8mo agoBecause people hardly pay for art, yet many consider it worth keeping the arts alive.
- Ekaros 8mo agoThen those many should spend their own money. And not steal from the rest of society. Maybe they could sing up for say extra 20-50% tax which then get distributed.
- direwolf20 8mo agoWe do, it's called income tax.
- Ekaros 8mo agoI mean 20-50% on top of income tax. Putting your money where your mouth is. That percentage should not be too much for anyone truly passionate and willing to make some sacrifices.
- padjo 8mo agoSteal from the rest of society? Would you cop yourself on. Governments levy taxes and use that tax money to fund things that they think will benefit society. A la carte funding of the bits you think are worth funding is not a workable proposal. The Irish government funds lots of things I don't agree with but characterising that as theft is ludicrous.
- tgv 8mo agoLibertarians will not be satisfied until everybody suffers maximally.
- carlosjobim 8mo agoIf they're not paying for it, then they lie if they say it's worth keeping alive.
- 8mo ago
- nicbou 8mo agoI come from Quebec, a cultural island in North America. You need to create infrastructure for your culture, so that it’s not swallowed by American culture. Funding culture protects our language, and to an extent our history and our perspective. There are books, art, movies and shows about us, in our language. It makes us a people.
- altacc 8mo agoWhat you describe is not a real choice that is being made. The unemployed in Ireland get unemployment benefits, so this isn't favouring one over the other. The Artist's UBI is not enough to live on (neither are most countries' unemployment benefits to be fair) but in general a salesperson or carpet installer when in employment will make a decent living, whereas artists don't. Society tends to under value the arts and overvalue commerce (and any free market arguments about this consistently fail to reflect reality), and this address some of the balance. They did an analysis (probably generously) and found that there would actually be an ROI for this UBI.
- whywhywhywhy 8mo agoYou’d be surprised what else is subsidized once you dig into it.