3 ms·

> it’s not like companies are making a bunch of product just to throw them in the trash Sure they do. You even mention one in the venerable plastic bag. Is i

> it’s not like companies are making a bunch of product just to throw them in the trash Sure they do. You even mention one in the venerable plastic bag. Is it the best bag? No, of course not. Is it a good bag? Absolutely not. Is it the cheapest bag to produce? You betcha. Consumers are often presented the least expensive option with the worst outcomes. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boots_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boots_theory

filoeleven 8mo ago
I remember when that switch at grocers from paper to plastic was taking hold, and you could choose. "Paper or plastic?" was the question asked. Some comedian (probably) had a good one liner: "That'll be 42.39. Kill a tree or choke a fish?"
- XorNot 8mo ago
  It's mostly a good example of why comedians aren't a source of information. Plantation lumber is a very sustainable industry, and plastic's environmental impact is highly context dependent.
throw310822 8mo ago
Why don't you pay for a more expensive bag and bring it to the store?
- timschmidt 8mo ago
  Why do you assume I don't? Opinionated defaults matter, as that's what most users will end up using.
  - throw310822 8mo ago
    Would you be ok if stores offered the option between a cheap plastic bag and a more expensive non-plastic one? (All the stores here already do it, btw).
    - timschmidt 8mo ago
      I think the externalities of plastic recycling must be internalized economically by requiring all manufacturers of items to pre-pay for the recycling of said items up front, as part of the manufacturing cost. Similar to how bottle returns are managed, which has been very successful. Items which are provably biodegradable or designed to facilitate repair may be exempt.
      - throw310822 8mo ago
        Plastic bags are already taxed where I live. Consumers pay that tax, obviously. Other costs imposed on producers of plastic items will just be passed down to consumers.
        timschmidt 8mo ago
        That's lovely, but it's not what I described. Bottles aren't just taxed. They have a refundable deposit. This ensures they don't end up in a landfill.
        matthewdgreen 8mo ago
        Exactly. The point of this sort of tax should not be to collect revenue, it should be to ensure that non-biodegradable bags are being disposed of correctly. To the extent that this is not happening, any bag tax is malfunctioning. Such a tax is either insufficient or poorly-designed. (Our city just banned chain stores from giving out plastic bags under 4 mils thick, and stores now give out paper and sell re-usable bags.)
        myrmidon 8mo ago
        Hard disagree on this. Even if that state is just straight up burning all the tax income from single-use plastic bags, by taxing them you incentivize consumers and distributors towards untaxed, ideally more sustainable alternatives, like single use paper bags or robust multi-use bags. > Our city just banned chain stores from giving out plastic bags under 4 mils thick, and stores now give out paper and sell re-usable bags I don't see how this is not a massive win? Paper bags are significantly more sustainable, and multi-use bags are more durable and thrown aways less simply from being more expensive alone. People are much more wasteful with things they didn't pay for, regardless of "inherent" value.
- matthewdgreen 8mo ago
  Many cities have banned plastic bags, and the results have been miraculous for waterways and wetlands. It turns out that shore animals don't benefit as much from "hope a few customers choose the better thing, but otherwise let them take home single-use crap that immediately blows off into natural settings." https://www.nytimes.com/2025/06/19/climate/plastic-bag-bans-litter.html https://www.nytimes.com/2025/06/19/climate/plastic-bag-bans-...
rtpg 8mo ago
The plastic bag is sold to businesses! If every supermarket in the world decided to never buy another plastic bag then they would no longer be produced! There can be a futility to it all in that the “ideal option” simply isn’t produced of course. I find boots theory is often a bit too convenient in this topic though. There is unlikely to be magic structural solutions that allow every part of your life to remain as convenient. At one point our lives will have to change in structure. EDIT: to be extra clear, I think systemic coordinated changes is needed. I just think the “it’s the corporations doing this!” narrative to obscure the needs for reorganization of daily life on top of systemic change
usrnm 8mo ago
> Is it the best bag? No, of course not. Is it a good bag? Absolutely not Plastic is absolutely the best packaging material ever created, it's so good, it feels like magic. It's light, it's cheap, it's waterproof, it's durable and doesn't just decompose, it comes in a miriad shapes and forms and so on. There is a reason it's everywhere
- timschmidt 8mo ago
  > it's cheap, it's waterproof, it's durable One of those adjectives describes the plastic bag I'm familiar with. Sometimes it lasts long enough to get the food in the house without spilling through a hole which spontaneously appeared in the bag.

filoeleven 8mo ago

I remember when that switch at grocers from paper to plastic was taking hold, and you could choose. "Paper or plastic?" was the question asked. Some comedian (probably) had a good one liner: "That'll be 42.39. Kill a tree or choke a fish?"

XorNot 8mo ago
It's mostly a good example of why comedians aren't a source of information. Plantation lumber is a very sustainable industry, and plastic's environmental impact is highly context dependent.

throw310822 8mo ago

Why don't you pay for a more expensive bag and bring it to the store?

timschmidt 8mo ago
Why do you assume I don't? Opinionated defaults matter, as that's what most users will end up using.
- throw310822 8mo ago
  Would you be ok if stores offered the option between a cheap plastic bag and a more expensive non-plastic one? (All the stores here already do it, btw).
  - timschmidt 8mo ago
    I think the externalities of plastic recycling must be internalized economically by requiring all manufacturers of items to pre-pay for the recycling of said items up front, as part of the manufacturing cost. Similar to how bottle returns are managed, which has been very successful. Items which are provably biodegradable or designed to facilitate repair may be exempt.
    - throw310822 8mo ago
      Plastic bags are already taxed where I live. Consumers pay that tax, obviously. Other costs imposed on producers of plastic items will just be passed down to consumers.
      - timschmidt 8mo ago
        That's lovely, but it's not what I described. Bottles aren't just taxed. They have a refundable deposit. This ensures they don't end up in a landfill.
        matthewdgreen 8mo ago
        Exactly. The point of this sort of tax should not be to collect revenue, it should be to ensure that non-biodegradable bags are being disposed of correctly. To the extent that this is not happening, any bag tax is malfunctioning. Such a tax is either insufficient or poorly-designed. (Our city just banned chain stores from giving out plastic bags under 4 mils thick, and stores now give out paper and sell re-usable bags.)
        myrmidon 8mo ago
        Hard disagree on this. Even if that state is just straight up burning all the tax income from single-use plastic bags, by taxing them you incentivize consumers and distributors towards untaxed, ideally more sustainable alternatives, like single use paper bags or robust multi-use bags. > Our city just banned chain stores from giving out plastic bags under 4 mils thick, and stores now give out paper and sell re-usable bags I don't see how this is not a massive win? Paper bags are significantly more sustainable, and multi-use bags are more durable and thrown aways less simply from being more expensive alone. People are much more wasteful with things they didn't pay for, regardless of "inherent" value.
matthewdgreen 8mo ago
Many cities have banned plastic bags, and the results have been miraculous for waterways and wetlands. It turns out that shore animals don't benefit as much from "hope a few customers choose the better thing, but otherwise let them take home single-use crap that immediately blows off into natural settings." https://www.nytimes.com/2025/06/19/climate/plastic-bag-bans-litter.html https://www.nytimes.com/2025/06/19/climate/plastic-bag-bans-...

rtpg 8mo ago

The plastic bag is sold to businesses! If every supermarket in the world decided to never buy another plastic bag then they would no longer be produced! There can be a futility to it all in that the “ideal option” simply isn’t produced of course. I find boots theory is often a bit too convenient in this topic though. There is unlikely to be magic structural solutions that allow every part of your life to remain as convenient. At one point our lives will have to change in structure. EDIT: to be extra clear, I think systemic coordinated changes is needed. I just think the “it’s the corporations doing this!” narrative to obscure the needs for reorganization of daily life on top of systemic change

usrnm 8mo ago

> Is it the best bag? No, of course not. Is it a good bag? Absolutely not Plastic is absolutely the best packaging material ever created, it's so good, it feels like magic. It's light, it's cheap, it's waterproof, it's durable and doesn't just decompose, it comes in a miriad shapes and forms and so on. There is a reason it's everywhere

timschmidt 8mo ago
> it's cheap, it's waterproof, it's durable One of those adjectives describes the plastic bag I'm familiar with. Sometimes it lasts long enough to get the food in the house without spilling through a hole which spontaneously appeared in the bag.