7 ms·

It's hard to not become disillusioned with our industry when most of it is just the manifesting of that Torment Nexus tweet. It's like no one in the tech world

by slg 8mo ago

It's hard to not become disillusioned with our industry when most of it is just the manifesting of that Torment Nexus tweet. It's like no one in the tech world actually understands any piece of fiction that they have ever consumed.

RankingMember 8mo ago
I knew plenty of people growing up who thought Fight Club was just a fun movie about guys who like to fight and make a club to do so and it gets a little crazy, then cut to credits. They then theorized making their own such club. This to say, yeah, I think sometimes the audience can be overestimated in their ability to understand deeper meaning in art.
- sandworm101 8mo ago
  And some extreemist are using fight clubs to gather followers, emulating the movie in the other direction. So-called "active clubs" are springing up using "fitness" to gather young angry males to the cause. Most join without realizing. Even gym owners are surprised to discover thier facilities have become clubhouses. https://www.jfed.net/antisemitismtoolsandresources/neo-nazi-fight-club-groups-spreading-in-canada-investigation-finds https://www.jfed.net/antisemitismtoolsandresources/neo-nazi-... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Clubs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Clubs
  - hackable_sand 8mo ago
    It's groomer behavior
  - tencentshill 8mo ago
    Also see: The Art of Self Defense
- hydrogen7800 8mo ago
  And Scarface was an inspiring rags-to-riches story.
- pbhjpbhj 8mo ago
  It's said that Starship Troopers failed to do as well in USA because people thought it was pro-fascist propaganda ... it doesn't seem possible that could genuinely be the case.
  - mrob 8mo ago
    Starship Troopers (the movie) is a terrible example of satire because it fails to show anything substantially bad. When you present a society that's more ethical than real life, nobody's going to care if some people wear uniforms that look a bit like Nazi uniforms. There is a genuine existential risk, and it's addressed in the best way possible. Military slavery ("conscription") is more evil than disenfranchisement, especially when citizenship is not required to live a good life. Nobody is tricked or coerced into signing up for military service. Potential recruits are even shown disabled veterans to make the risk more salient. There are no signs of racism or sexism. Other objections are not supported by the film. There is no suggestion that the Buenos Aires attack is a false flag. I've seen people claim it's impossible for the bugs to do this, but it's a film featuring faster-than-light travel. The humans are already doing impossible things, so why can't the bugs? I've also heard complaints that there is no attempt at peace negotiations. There is no suggestion that peace is possible. It's possible among humans because most humans have a strong natural aversion to killing other humans. Real life armed forces have to go to great lengths to desensitize their troops to killing to prevent them from intentionally missing. But humans generally have no qualms about killing bugs, and the bugs in the movie never hesitate to kill humans. The movie is an inspiring story about people making the right choices in a difficult situation. Some people look at it objectively, and some only react to the aesthetics. Those who look objectively understand it's actually faithful to the spirit of the book despite Verhoeven not intending that.
    - hdgvhicv 8mo ago
      The only hung I see about the asteroid was that Carmen’s collision (caused by her showing off) knocked the rock which caused it to hit Earth, where originally it may well have missed. Seems reasonable (although clearly not the intent of the story and not a deliberate “false flag”)
malfist 8mo ago
Never doubt they understand, there's just too much money to be made making the Torment Nexus
mlsu 8mo ago
I've had a startling number of conversations exactly like this: "Oh, you read as well? What do your read?" "[this book], [that book]" "Those are all non-fiction, any fiction?" "I don't read fiction. If I'm not going to learn anything, it's a waste of time." "..."
- thadt 8mo ago
  Oh man, have I gotten to read a lot of history recently. And also fiction. Frequently at the same time.
  - somat 8mo ago
    I like the quote that claims that as a science history is probably closer to animal husbandry than anything else. Don't get me wrong I like history and think it a critical thing to study. but it is very telling to try ones hand at meta-history, the history of history, look to how the narrative of a historical subject changes through time and space. An easy one is world war 2 documentaries. The difference in tone and focus of those done right after the cessation of hostilities compared to those done later is fascinating.
- krupan 8mo ago
  Fiction is my favorite, because the authors admit they are just making it up.
- sph 8mo ago
  Man, I’m the opposite. In the information age, in my leisure time reading books, I don’t want to learn any more facts and data points. I just want to enjoy a good story.
- dazed_confused 8mo ago
  Just had the pleasure of listening to a Turing Award winner, and to answer a question about how to know what issues could come up. His response, "Read science fiction!" helps scientists imagine the future. I'll take his advice and stick to my mostly fiction reading :)
nektro 8mo ago
its far simpler than that; not caring about what they've built if the check is big enough. because they've taught us that "if i don't build it, they'll just hire someone else. might as well be me that gets the money." but if there was solidarity or more regulation it'd be much less of a guarantee that these things would be built.
alfalfasprout 8mo ago
You'll see on HN itself how many people want to work on this surveillance. How many people want all white collar work eliminated by AI. How many people want a quick buck at anyone's expense, the morality be damned. Money and only money talks nowadays. It's sad.
hackable_sand 8mo ago
Video games are jammed with the follies of man. Elden Ring: Nightreign is a recent anthology of moral lessons.
- user205738 8mo ago
  Give me an example. One game I didn't expect to see was Nightreign.
deaux 8mo ago
If we're looking globally, the huuge majority of our industry isn't part of manifesting the Torment Nexus. Unfortunately a lot of HN is, because interest in SV/VC strongly biases towards interest in achieving personal goals (including but not limited to financial earnings), over caring about building something that helps society. And no, of course not everyone in SV is like that, and not every VC-funded company helps inch towards the Torment Nexus. But there's inherently a strong bias towards it.
Amezarak 8mo ago
It’s important to note that fiction does not map to reality. It’s fiction. You cannot learn how the world works through fiction. It’s just the author’s ideas about the world in a narrative framework that may or may not be true. I find it very frustrating when people confuse the two. Reading fiction doesn’t give you an interpretive lens for reality. Reading history does. Saying this is “just like when in Harry Potter / Star Wars / Star Trek x happened” is totally meaningless and not predictive of anything in the real world.
ishouldstayaway 8mo ago
> It's like no one in the tech world actually understands any piece of fiction that they have ever consumed. Of course they don't. Have you seen how common it is in tech circles to deride humanities education?

by slg 8mo ago

RankingMember 8mo ago

I knew plenty of people growing up who thought Fight Club was just a fun movie about guys who like to fight and make a club to do so and it gets a little crazy, then cut to credits. They then theorized making their own such club. This to say, yeah, I think sometimes the audience can be overestimated in their ability to understand deeper meaning in art.

sandworm101 8mo ago
And some extreemist are using fight clubs to gather followers, emulating the movie in the other direction. So-called "active clubs" are springing up using "fitness" to gather young angry males to the cause. Most join without realizing. Even gym owners are surprised to discover thier facilities have become clubhouses. https://www.jfed.net/antisemitismtoolsandresources/neo-nazi-fight-club-groups-spreading-in-canada-investigation-finds https://www.jfed.net/antisemitismtoolsandresources/neo-nazi-... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Clubs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Clubs
- hackable_sand 8mo ago
  It's groomer behavior
- tencentshill 8mo ago
  Also see: The Art of Self Defense
hydrogen7800 8mo ago
And Scarface was an inspiring rags-to-riches story.
pbhjpbhj 8mo ago
It's said that Starship Troopers failed to do as well in USA because people thought it was pro-fascist propaganda ... it doesn't seem possible that could genuinely be the case.
- mrob 8mo ago
  Starship Troopers (the movie) is a terrible example of satire because it fails to show anything substantially bad. When you present a society that's more ethical than real life, nobody's going to care if some people wear uniforms that look a bit like Nazi uniforms. There is a genuine existential risk, and it's addressed in the best way possible. Military slavery ("conscription") is more evil than disenfranchisement, especially when citizenship is not required to live a good life. Nobody is tricked or coerced into signing up for military service. Potential recruits are even shown disabled veterans to make the risk more salient. There are no signs of racism or sexism. Other objections are not supported by the film. There is no suggestion that the Buenos Aires attack is a false flag. I've seen people claim it's impossible for the bugs to do this, but it's a film featuring faster-than-light travel. The humans are already doing impossible things, so why can't the bugs? I've also heard complaints that there is no attempt at peace negotiations. There is no suggestion that peace is possible. It's possible among humans because most humans have a strong natural aversion to killing other humans. Real life armed forces have to go to great lengths to desensitize their troops to killing to prevent them from intentionally missing. But humans generally have no qualms about killing bugs, and the bugs in the movie never hesitate to kill humans. The movie is an inspiring story about people making the right choices in a difficult situation. Some people look at it objectively, and some only react to the aesthetics. Those who look objectively understand it's actually faithful to the spirit of the book despite Verhoeven not intending that.
  - hdgvhicv 8mo ago
    The only hung I see about the asteroid was that Carmen’s collision (caused by her showing off) knocked the rock which caused it to hit Earth, where originally it may well have missed. Seems reasonable (although clearly not the intent of the story and not a deliberate “false flag”)

malfist 8mo ago

Never doubt they understand, there's just too much money to be made making the Torment Nexus

mlsu 8mo ago

I've had a startling number of conversations exactly like this: "Oh, you read as well? What do your read?" "[this book], [that book]" "Those are all non-fiction, any fiction?" "I don't read fiction. If I'm not going to learn anything, it's a waste of time." "..."

thadt 8mo ago
Oh man, have I gotten to read a lot of history recently. And also fiction. Frequently at the same time.
- somat 8mo ago
  I like the quote that claims that as a science history is probably closer to animal husbandry than anything else. Don't get me wrong I like history and think it a critical thing to study. but it is very telling to try ones hand at meta-history, the history of history, look to how the narrative of a historical subject changes through time and space. An easy one is world war 2 documentaries. The difference in tone and focus of those done right after the cessation of hostilities compared to those done later is fascinating.
krupan 8mo ago
Fiction is my favorite, because the authors admit they are just making it up.
sph 8mo ago
Man, I’m the opposite. In the information age, in my leisure time reading books, I don’t want to learn any more facts and data points. I just want to enjoy a good story.
dazed_confused 8mo ago
Just had the pleasure of listening to a Turing Award winner, and to answer a question about how to know what issues could come up. His response, "Read science fiction!" helps scientists imagine the future. I'll take his advice and stick to my mostly fiction reading :)

nektro 8mo ago

its far simpler than that; not caring about what they've built if the check is big enough. because they've taught us that "if i don't build it, they'll just hire someone else. might as well be me that gets the money." but if there was solidarity or more regulation it'd be much less of a guarantee that these things would be built.

alfalfasprout 8mo ago

You'll see on HN itself how many people want to work on this surveillance. How many people want all white collar work eliminated by AI. How many people want a quick buck at anyone's expense, the morality be damned. Money and only money talks nowadays. It's sad.

hackable_sand 8mo ago

Video games are jammed with the follies of man. Elden Ring: Nightreign is a recent anthology of moral lessons.

user205738 8mo ago
Give me an example. One game I didn't expect to see was Nightreign.

deaux 8mo ago

If we're looking globally, the huuge majority of our industry isn't part of manifesting the Torment Nexus. Unfortunately a lot of HN is, because interest in SV/VC strongly biases towards interest in achieving personal goals (including but not limited to financial earnings), over caring about building something that helps society. And no, of course not everyone in SV is like that, and not every VC-funded company helps inch towards the Torment Nexus. But there's inherently a strong bias towards it.

Amezarak 8mo ago

It’s important to note that fiction does not map to reality. It’s fiction. You cannot learn how the world works through fiction. It’s just the author’s ideas about the world in a narrative framework that may or may not be true. I find it very frustrating when people confuse the two. Reading fiction doesn’t give you an interpretive lens for reality. Reading history does. Saying this is “just like when in Harry Potter / Star Wars / Star Trek x happened” is totally meaningless and not predictive of anything in the real world.

ishouldstayaway 8mo ago

> It's like no one in the tech world actually understands any piece of fiction that they have ever consumed. Of course they don't. Have you seen how common it is in tech circles to deride humanities education?