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> Mine gets a 40-45 mile all electric range. That sounds like the real issue, vs. EVs. This sounds like you basically have to plug it in every time you park it

> Mine gets a 40-45 mile all electric range. That sounds like the real issue, vs. EVs. This sounds like you basically have to plug it in every time you park it. And there’s no way you could do any sort of (even small) road trip without using gas. (For comparison, our EV6 has about 200-250 mile range, and we charge it about once a week or so, give or take, unless we take a road trip.) Also, one of the main advantages with EVs is their insane low maintenance, but sounds like PHEVs still have to all the same maintenance issues of ICE vehicles.

Marsymars 8mo ago
> Also, one of the main advantages with EVs is their insane low maintenance, but sounds like PHEVs still have to all the same maintenance issues of ICE vehicles. I keep seeing this repeated, but I kept a detailed decade-plus spreadsheet of maintenace costs for my last ICE car, and ~2/3 of the costs were for components that are common to EVs.
- jader201 8mo ago
  1. Maintenance isn’t just about cost. It’s about the number of things that move and/or need fluids, and can fail/leak. It’s about dealing with service centers trying to upsell you on every little possible thing that could go wrong. When I take my EV in, it’s for one of two things: I need my tires rotated, or I need new tires. That’s it. There’s no “curtsy inspection” that comes back with literally 40 different things that I could have done to it. 2. Our household has four vehicles: one EV, three ICE vehicles. There’s no way the occasional new tires (rotations are free where we bought our tires) amount to 2/3 the cost of the maintenance needed on our ICE vehicles. It’s probably closer to 1/10. I think you’re overestimating what all needs maintenance on an EV.
  - devmor 8mo ago
    I think you also might be overestimating what the average ICE owner has to take care of. Most Americans don’t keep a car long enough to even pay it off - they’re in an endless loop of trade-ins, meaning that most non-accident damage is covered by warranty. I’ve had my current ICE car for just over 5 years now and finally paid my first out of pocket repair cost: $40 for a new washable air filter. Other than that, my expenditures have been tires and a couple hundred bucks in oil changes that I didn’t want to do myself.
    - jader201 8mo ago
      > I think you also might be overestimating what the average ICE owner has to take care of. > Most Americans don’t keep a car long enough to even pay it off - they’re in an endless loop of trade-ins, meaning that most non-accident damage is covered by warranty. No, I think you may be underestimating. According to this article [1] at least, it’s close to 13 years. That’s well into large/costly maintenance items. Maybe on HN, people don’t keep their cars long enough to need new brakes or transmission flush, but that’s not typical. [1] https://www.spglobal.com/automotive-insights/en/blogs/2025/05/average-age-of-vehicle-in-us#:~:text=The%20average%20age%20of%20vehicles%20in%20the%20US%20continues%20to,the%20durability%20of%20modern%20vehicles. https://www.spglobal.com/automotive-insights/en/blogs/2025/0... > I’ve had my current ICE car for just over 5 years now and finally paid my first out of pocket repair cost: $40 for a new washable air filter. Repairs are only a subset of maintenance. Maintenance includes oil changes, brakes, transmission flushes, etc. All of this is part of the maintenance that ICE vehicles need that EVs don’t.
      - devmor 8mo ago
        Vehicle age != ownership duration. The used car market is thriving and aftermarket warranties are a huge part of this. I also clearly mentioned maintenance in my post - you chose to quote the sentence before it, leaving it out and then respond as if I hadn’t. Please don’t engage me with this kind of dishonest conversation. It’s a waste of both our time.
  - Marsymars 8mo ago
    > I think you’re overestimating what all needs maintenance on an EV. I'm not doing any estimating, I kept a detailed spreadsheet of every dollar I put into the car, and am familiar with which items are common to an EV.
    - jader201 8mo ago
      > and am familiar with which items are common to an EV. This is the overestimating I was referring to. I think you’re either mistaken in what items are common to EV, or you’re overestimating the cost of those items. There is only one thing that needs maintenance on an EV: tires. Unless you’re saying that tires amount to 2/3 of an ICE vehicles maintenance. In which case you may want to shop around for more reasonably priced tires.
      - socialcommenter 8mo ago
        Not the person you replied to, but I'm not sure how you arrived here. Brakes, coolant, washer fluid, diff oil, gearbox oil, cabin air filter, wiper blades. Did you know EV motors can also require oil changes (at hundreds of thousands of miles, in fairness)? Nice Michelins for my ICE have been something resembling 1/3 of service costs. Not 2/3 but not negligible either.
        jader201 8mo ago
        > Brakes Maybe at 1/10 the schedule of ICE vehicles, at least for me. I use regenerative braking almost exclusively (probably 95+% of the time). > coolant Yes, I did forget about that one. But frequency is about 50% less often than ICE vehicles. Maybe once every 5-10 years. > washer fluid, cabin air filter, wiper blades Agreed on these as well, but I bucketed these in the trivial category, totaling less than a tank of gas once every 6-12 months, and all DIY things that you don’t need to take to a service center for. At the end of the day, I only care about things I need to take it to the shop for. Which means I only need to take it in for a no-questions-asked tire rotation 1-2 times a year, and new tires every 4-5 years. Everything else I can easily do at home. > diff oil, gearbox oil These are the same thing, but you’re correct. But it’s infrequent (maybe once or twice over the life, and around $150. > Did you know EV motors can also require oil changes Ummm… what? Now you lost me. What EVs need oil?
- anon7000 8mo ago
  Curious for the big examples. Some major things EVs don’t have: oil changes, belts/chains, transmissions, most things related to the engine & drive train are different… seems like the main similarities would be tires, brakes, body work, amenities.
  - kalleboo 8mo ago
    No the GP, but in the 10 years of owning my ICE vehicle I've had these things serviced: Oil change/Oil filter, Spark plugs, Alternator belt, Aircon belt, Brake pads, Brake fluid, Wiper blades, Wiper fluid, 12V battery, Tyres, an accessory fuse, a jammed seatbelt buckle. Two of the power locks are a bit sticky and probably need a touch-up of oil. The first 4 are ICE-only, and brake pads are worn less if you mostly use regen. The rest are the same on EVs.
- freetime2 8mo ago
  And by far the biggest cost of car ownership (for new cars at least) is depreciation. And EVs depreciate rapidly - enough to offset the costs of oil changes I imagine. And I actually like bringing my car into the dealer twice a year for service. I get to wander around and check out what's new, eat some free snacks, shoot the breeze with my dealer about what's happening in the industry, and then spend the rest of the time on my laptop. Maybe this is sad to admit, but I actually kind of look forward to it. That being said, if you're in the market for a used EV right now, that depreciation actually works in your favor. I was looking at prices on used luxury EVs recently, and have to admit I was pretty tempted by some 2-3 year old cars selling at less than half MSRP.
dalyons 8mo ago
> This sounds like you basically have to plug it in every time you park it. And there’s no way you could do any sort of (even small) road trip without using gas. Yep, so people (mostly) don’t , in aggregate: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2025/oct/16/plug-in-hybrids-pollute-almost-as-much-as-petrol-cars-report-finds https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2025/oct/16/plug-in-...
3eb7988a1663 8mo ago
That is the point of a PHEV. Just enough battery to cover the daily commute. Plug it in each night, and M-F you could use zero gas.
rssoconnor 8mo ago
Not that I'm disagreeing with your main point, but I will say that Toyota's hybrid design is one of the best ICE engines out there. The transmission is replaced with planetary gears and the starter and alternators are replaced with a pair of motors to control the throttle and continuously variable transmission, making it one of the gentlest engine designs out there. But yes, there is engine oil to be replaced and whatnot. And also, to your point, my experience with my PHEV is my short range driving is electric, but it turns out most of my miles is consumed by annual long range trips. If I commuted to work, things would tip more in favour of EV driving. All to say how much EV you get out of your PHEV will depend highly on the type of driving one does.
riku_iki 8mo ago
> Mine gets a 40-45 mile all electric range. That sounds like the real issue, vs. EVs. This sounds like you basically have to plug it in every time you park it. And there’s no way you could do any sort of (even small) road trip without using gas. > (For comparison, our EV6 has about 200-250 mile range, and we charge it about once a week or so, give or take, unless we take a road trip.) its gasoline car. You use 45miles for every day commute while charging overnight, and use gas for roadtrips: 500 miles range + 3 mins put gas into car

Marsymars 8mo ago

> Also, one of the main advantages with EVs is their insane low maintenance, but sounds like PHEVs still have to all the same maintenance issues of ICE vehicles. I keep seeing this repeated, but I kept a detailed decade-plus spreadsheet of maintenace costs for my last ICE car, and ~2/3 of the costs were for components that are common to EVs.

jader201 8mo ago
1. Maintenance isn’t just about cost. It’s about the number of things that move and/or need fluids, and can fail/leak. It’s about dealing with service centers trying to upsell you on every little possible thing that could go wrong. When I take my EV in, it’s for one of two things: I need my tires rotated, or I need new tires. That’s it. There’s no “curtsy inspection” that comes back with literally 40 different things that I could have done to it. 2. Our household has four vehicles: one EV, three ICE vehicles. There’s no way the occasional new tires (rotations are free where we bought our tires) amount to 2/3 the cost of the maintenance needed on our ICE vehicles. It’s probably closer to 1/10. I think you’re overestimating what all needs maintenance on an EV.
- devmor 8mo ago
  I think you also might be overestimating what the average ICE owner has to take care of. Most Americans don’t keep a car long enough to even pay it off - they’re in an endless loop of trade-ins, meaning that most non-accident damage is covered by warranty. I’ve had my current ICE car for just over 5 years now and finally paid my first out of pocket repair cost: $40 for a new washable air filter. Other than that, my expenditures have been tires and a couple hundred bucks in oil changes that I didn’t want to do myself.
  - jader201 8mo ago
    > I think you also might be overestimating what the average ICE owner has to take care of. > Most Americans don’t keep a car long enough to even pay it off - they’re in an endless loop of trade-ins, meaning that most non-accident damage is covered by warranty. No, I think you may be underestimating. According to this article [1] at least, it’s close to 13 years. That’s well into large/costly maintenance items. Maybe on HN, people don’t keep their cars long enough to need new brakes or transmission flush, but that’s not typical. [1] https://www.spglobal.com/automotive-insights/en/blogs/2025/05/average-age-of-vehicle-in-us#:~:text=The%20average%20age%20of%20vehicles%20in%20the%20US%20continues%20to,the%20durability%20of%20modern%20vehicles. https://www.spglobal.com/automotive-insights/en/blogs/2025/0... > I’ve had my current ICE car for just over 5 years now and finally paid my first out of pocket repair cost: $40 for a new washable air filter. Repairs are only a subset of maintenance. Maintenance includes oil changes, brakes, transmission flushes, etc. All of this is part of the maintenance that ICE vehicles need that EVs don’t.
    - devmor 8mo ago
      Vehicle age != ownership duration. The used car market is thriving and aftermarket warranties are a huge part of this. I also clearly mentioned maintenance in my post - you chose to quote the sentence before it, leaving it out and then respond as if I hadn’t. Please don’t engage me with this kind of dishonest conversation. It’s a waste of both our time.
- Marsymars 8mo ago
  > I think you’re overestimating what all needs maintenance on an EV. I'm not doing any estimating, I kept a detailed spreadsheet of every dollar I put into the car, and am familiar with which items are common to an EV.
  - jader201 8mo ago
    > and am familiar with which items are common to an EV. This is the overestimating I was referring to. I think you’re either mistaken in what items are common to EV, or you’re overestimating the cost of those items. There is only one thing that needs maintenance on an EV: tires. Unless you’re saying that tires amount to 2/3 of an ICE vehicles maintenance. In which case you may want to shop around for more reasonably priced tires.
    - socialcommenter 8mo ago
      Not the person you replied to, but I'm not sure how you arrived here. Brakes, coolant, washer fluid, diff oil, gearbox oil, cabin air filter, wiper blades. Did you know EV motors can also require oil changes (at hundreds of thousands of miles, in fairness)? Nice Michelins for my ICE have been something resembling 1/3 of service costs. Not 2/3 but not negligible either.
      - jader201 8mo ago
        > Brakes Maybe at 1/10 the schedule of ICE vehicles, at least for me. I use regenerative braking almost exclusively (probably 95+% of the time). > coolant Yes, I did forget about that one. But frequency is about 50% less often than ICE vehicles. Maybe once every 5-10 years. > washer fluid, cabin air filter, wiper blades Agreed on these as well, but I bucketed these in the trivial category, totaling less than a tank of gas once every 6-12 months, and all DIY things that you don’t need to take to a service center for. At the end of the day, I only care about things I need to take it to the shop for. Which means I only need to take it in for a no-questions-asked tire rotation 1-2 times a year, and new tires every 4-5 years. Everything else I can easily do at home. > diff oil, gearbox oil These are the same thing, but you’re correct. But it’s infrequent (maybe once or twice over the life, and around $150. > Did you know EV motors can also require oil changes Ummm… what? Now you lost me. What EVs need oil?
anon7000 8mo ago
Curious for the big examples. Some major things EVs don’t have: oil changes, belts/chains, transmissions, most things related to the engine & drive train are different… seems like the main similarities would be tires, brakes, body work, amenities.
- kalleboo 8mo ago
  No the GP, but in the 10 years of owning my ICE vehicle I've had these things serviced: Oil change/Oil filter, Spark plugs, Alternator belt, Aircon belt, Brake pads, Brake fluid, Wiper blades, Wiper fluid, 12V battery, Tyres, an accessory fuse, a jammed seatbelt buckle. Two of the power locks are a bit sticky and probably need a touch-up of oil. The first 4 are ICE-only, and brake pads are worn less if you mostly use regen. The rest are the same on EVs.
freetime2 8mo ago
And by far the biggest cost of car ownership (for new cars at least) is depreciation. And EVs depreciate rapidly - enough to offset the costs of oil changes I imagine. And I actually like bringing my car into the dealer twice a year for service. I get to wander around and check out what's new, eat some free snacks, shoot the breeze with my dealer about what's happening in the industry, and then spend the rest of the time on my laptop. Maybe this is sad to admit, but I actually kind of look forward to it. That being said, if you're in the market for a used EV right now, that depreciation actually works in your favor. I was looking at prices on used luxury EVs recently, and have to admit I was pretty tempted by some 2-3 year old cars selling at less than half MSRP.

dalyons 8mo ago

> This sounds like you basically have to plug it in every time you park it. And there’s no way you could do any sort of (even small) road trip without using gas. Yep, so people (mostly) don’t , in aggregate: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2025/oct/16/plug-in-hybrids-pollute-almost-as-much-as-petrol-cars-report-finds https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2025/oct/16/plug-in-...

3eb7988a1663 8mo ago

That is the point of a PHEV. Just enough battery to cover the daily commute. Plug it in each night, and M-F you could use zero gas.

rssoconnor 8mo ago

Not that I'm disagreeing with your main point, but I will say that Toyota's hybrid design is one of the best ICE engines out there. The transmission is replaced with planetary gears and the starter and alternators are replaced with a pair of motors to control the throttle and continuously variable transmission, making it one of the gentlest engine designs out there. But yes, there is engine oil to be replaced and whatnot. And also, to your point, my experience with my PHEV is my short range driving is electric, but it turns out most of my miles is consumed by annual long range trips. If I commuted to work, things would tip more in favour of EV driving. All to say how much EV you get out of your PHEV will depend highly on the type of driving one does.

riku_iki 8mo ago

> Mine gets a 40-45 mile all electric range. That sounds like the real issue, vs. EVs. This sounds like you basically have to plug it in every time you park it. And there’s no way you could do any sort of (even small) road trip without using gas. > (For comparison, our EV6 has about 200-250 mile range, and we charge it about once a week or so, give or take, unless we take a road trip.) its gasoline car. You use 45miles for every day commute while charging overnight, and use gas for roadtrips: 500 miles range + 3 mins put gas into car