7 ms·

>No one should be required to carry an attacker-controlled tracking device What about being required to carry a your-own-government-controlled tracking device?

>No one should be required to carry an attacker-controlled tracking device What about being required to carry a your-own-government-controlled tracking device? Because the US or Chine government can't harm me in Europe via the data they collect from me, But the EU authorities can if they want to, so naturally I fear them more if they were the ones hoovering my data. What are the odds they're using this on-shore tech grab to implement their own domestic version of China's social credit score system, to easily get data on their own citizens who commit "wrong-think", without having to through the effort to twist the arm of US entities every time they want to do that? Food for thought, but I do think we're living the last years of online anonymity, it's inevitable.

scythe 9mo ago
Tracking device might be the wrong thing to focus on. The US has other ways of messing with foreigners who depend on services provided by US companies, like suddenly cutting off those services in the case of ICC judges.
- joe_mamba 9mo ago
  IIRC, ICC judges lost access to their O365 work email accounts. Worst the US can do to me is turn off my Steam, and Gmail but I can easily live without those. Now imagine being debanked by your own government because they don't like what you're saying and becoming unemployed, homeless and dead. I don't think they're remotely comparable. For example, a few years ago, a power tripping gov bureaucrat turned off my unemployment payments over a technicality. Luckily, I had enough money to pay a lawyer to sue them and won, but it was tight. What if I hadn't had the money to hire a lawyer? Since I was in a foreign country, with no family or close friends to fall back on. I was exclusively relying on the welfare state I paid into for years, that then turn its back on me for shits and giggles. So I don't think you understand just how bad it can be for you if your government decides to turn on you and fuck with you, if you're comparing this to losing access to your work email account. See the famous case of UK postal workers that got fucked by their government trying to hide their mistakes.
  - digiown 9mo ago
    It's all the same. How is suing Google any different, if you instead get debanked by Google for violating their "terms"? The only solution is untraceable, permissionless money, like Monero. Why do you think governments try so hard to ban it?
    - joe_mamba 9mo ago
      > if you instead get debanked by Google for violating their "terms" Since when is google a bank? >The only solution is untraceable, permissionless money, like Monero. Why do you think governments try so hard to ban it? Because untraceable currency is mostly used by criminals for crime.
      - digiown 9mo ago
        Your bank (like most European ones) requires you to pass attestation to use their services. If you don't accept Google/Apple's terms, you can't access it without extreme difficulty.
        joe_mamba 9mo ago
        I can always access my bank via a web browser or even in person at the teller at a branch somewhere, or as a last resort via snail mail from attorney, but most importantly even if I get locked out somehow by google, the account still runs and I won't be homeless as my salary and rent auto-payments keep going regardless if you can access it or not. How is this comparable to your government debanking you meaning that no bank, landlord, layer or job will touch you?
        digiown 9mo ago
        It's less severe for sure, but I'd rather live without undue interference based on someone else's whims, unless I broke a law.
        salawat 9mo ago
Archelaos 9mo ago
The odds are very low. It all depents on the people. So far, the European citizens are very privacy senstive. The European institutions are characterized by a huge devision of power. There is no chance that European instutitions can impose their will against a considerable majority of people. If people turn away from liberal democracy, that's another matter. But then everything is lost anyway.
- joe_mamba 9mo ago
  [flagged]
  - roenxi 9mo ago
    > Sure is convenient that we keep having more and more crisis and boogiemen that governments can leverage... The problem with this phrasing is it makes it sound hyperbolic, but it is important to remember the world is large and there are always, in a literal and normal sense, multiple major crises going on at any moment. People who don't pay much attention to politics sometimes get confused about why crises elevated by the corporate media get ignored. A big answer is becuase they are elevated for political reasons, usually the crisis is fairly routine in absolute terms.
    - joe_mamba 9mo ago
      >there are always, in a literal and normal sense, multiple major crises going on at any moment True, but my point I wanted to draw attention to, is HOW these crisis are handled now, not that there's many of them. Every crisis now seems to be exclusively used as a vehicle to justify taking away just a little bit more of your freedom and anonymity, or implement more fiscal policies that will leave you footing the bill but just so happens it will be enriching the wealthy as a side effect. Because such policies shoved out the door in times of crisis, don't pass through the lengthy public debates and scrutiny regular policies have to go through, so it's the perfect opportunity to sneak and fast-track some nefarious stuff in. I'm not that old yet, but I don't feel like this backdoor was misused to this extent in the past, like pre-2008 I mean (except 9/11 of course). It definitely feels like politicians have gooten of taste and are abusing this exploit now more with every little opportunity.
deleted 9mo ago
[deleted]
ahefner 9mo ago
Every government is an attacker.
friendzis 9mo ago
> What are the odds they're using this on-shore tech grab to implement their own domestic version of China's social credit score system, to easily get data on their own citizens who commit "wrong-think", without having to through the effort to twist the arm of US entities every time they want to do that? What are the odds that once shut down "chat control" will come up under a new name?
- pyrale 9mo ago
  > without having to through the effort to twist the arm of US entities every time they want to do that? Right now, it's more like US corpos are try to twist the arm of EU governments [1][2], pushing heavy propaganda to manipulate our elections [3], allying with the US government to do so. And the US government has been threatening EU govts with invasion [4], leveraging US corpos to harm lawful individuals doing their jobs in the EU [5], and sanctioning elected officials for performing their duties [6], or threatened to [7]. Sure, there's an hypothetical risk of the EU turning sour. On the other hand, when it comes to US corpos, the risk has materialized. [1]: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cly930y90lro https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cly930y90lro [2]: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c0589g0dqq7o https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c0589g0dqq7o [3]: https://www.politico.eu/article/twitter-faces-renewed-scrutiny-over-disinformation-in-europe/ https://www.politico.eu/article/twitter-faces-renewed-scruti... [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenland_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenland_crisis [5]: https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2025/11/19/nicolas-guillou-french-icc-judge-sanctioned-by-the-us-you-are-effectively-blacklisted-by-much-of-the-world-s-banking-system_6747628_4.html https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2025/11/19/n... [6]: https://www.brusselstimes.com/1931733/eu-parliament-blasts-us-over-visa-ban-on-former-commissioner-breton https://www.brusselstimes.com/1931733/eu-parliament-blasts-u... [7]: https://www.politico.eu/article/us-accused-threats-eu-diplomats-bid-to-kill-green-shipping-rules-negotiations-personal-intimidation/ https://www.politico.eu/article/us-accused-threats-eu-diplom...
  - joe_mamba 9mo ago
    [flagged]
philipwhiuk 9mo ago
> Because the US or Chine government can't harm me in Europe via the data they collect from me That's an amusingly naïve perspective. The US government absolutely can harm you, via a multitude of ways.
- n4r9 9mo ago
  Also, Chinese-owned firms are known to be transferring EU citizens' data to China in violation of GDPR: https://noyb.eu/en/tiktok-aliexpress-shein-co-surrender-europeans-data-authoritarian-china https://noyb.eu/en/tiktok-aliexpress-shein-co-surrender-euro... China's government has strategic goals to destabilise and weaken the EU, and data-farming will be part of their strategy.
- abc123abc123 9mo ago
  Not to speak of russia who have been sending assassins to kill people in the EU for a long time, and the EU has not been very good at stopping those.
swiftcoder 9mo ago
> What about being required to carry a your-own-government-controlled tracking device? What part of the cellphone manufacturer being based overseas makes you think the government can't track you via it? Even leaving asides 5-eyes style data-sharing agreements, your US/Chinese smartphone still connects through a domestic cellphone carrier, using a domestic number. That's enough to have at a minimum fine-grained location tracking, call logs, and data usage.
- orbifold 9mo ago
  In fact 5g and all previous standards have a provision for lawful intercept. So your domestic intelligence service and police can always turn it into a listening device.

scythe 9mo ago

Tracking device might be the wrong thing to focus on. The US has other ways of messing with foreigners who depend on services provided by US companies, like suddenly cutting off those services in the case of ICC judges.

joe_mamba 9mo ago
IIRC, ICC judges lost access to their O365 work email accounts. Worst the US can do to me is turn off my Steam, and Gmail but I can easily live without those. Now imagine being debanked by your own government because they don't like what you're saying and becoming unemployed, homeless and dead. I don't think they're remotely comparable. For example, a few years ago, a power tripping gov bureaucrat turned off my unemployment payments over a technicality. Luckily, I had enough money to pay a lawyer to sue them and won, but it was tight. What if I hadn't had the money to hire a lawyer? Since I was in a foreign country, with no family or close friends to fall back on. I was exclusively relying on the welfare state I paid into for years, that then turn its back on me for shits and giggles. So I don't think you understand just how bad it can be for you if your government decides to turn on you and fuck with you, if you're comparing this to losing access to your work email account. See the famous case of UK postal workers that got fucked by their government trying to hide their mistakes.
- digiown 9mo ago
  It's all the same. How is suing Google any different, if you instead get debanked by Google for violating their "terms"? The only solution is untraceable, permissionless money, like Monero. Why do you think governments try so hard to ban it?
  - joe_mamba 9mo ago
    > if you instead get debanked by Google for violating their "terms" Since when is google a bank? >The only solution is untraceable, permissionless money, like Monero. Why do you think governments try so hard to ban it? Because untraceable currency is mostly used by criminals for crime.
    - digiown 9mo ago
      Your bank (like most European ones) requires you to pass attestation to use their services. If you don't accept Google/Apple's terms, you can't access it without extreme difficulty.
      - joe_mamba 9mo ago
        I can always access my bank via a web browser or even in person at the teller at a branch somewhere, or as a last resort via snail mail from attorney, but most importantly even if I get locked out somehow by google, the account still runs and I won't be homeless as my salary and rent auto-payments keep going regardless if you can access it or not. How is this comparable to your government debanking you meaning that no bank, landlord, layer or job will touch you?
        digiown 9mo ago
        It's less severe for sure, but I'd rather live without undue interference based on someone else's whims, unless I broke a law.
        salawat 9mo ago

Archelaos 9mo ago

The odds are very low. It all depents on the people. So far, the European citizens are very privacy senstive. The European institutions are characterized by a huge devision of power. There is no chance that European instutitions can impose their will against a considerable majority of people. If people turn away from liberal democracy, that's another matter. But then everything is lost anyway.

joe_mamba 9mo ago
[flagged]
- roenxi 9mo ago
  > Sure is convenient that we keep having more and more crisis and boogiemen that governments can leverage... The problem with this phrasing is it makes it sound hyperbolic, but it is important to remember the world is large and there are always, in a literal and normal sense, multiple major crises going on at any moment. People who don't pay much attention to politics sometimes get confused about why crises elevated by the corporate media get ignored. A big answer is becuase they are elevated for political reasons, usually the crisis is fairly routine in absolute terms.
  - joe_mamba 9mo ago
    >there are always, in a literal and normal sense, multiple major crises going on at any moment True, but my point I wanted to draw attention to, is HOW these crisis are handled now, not that there's many of them. Every crisis now seems to be exclusively used as a vehicle to justify taking away just a little bit more of your freedom and anonymity, or implement more fiscal policies that will leave you footing the bill but just so happens it will be enriching the wealthy as a side effect. Because such policies shoved out the door in times of crisis, don't pass through the lengthy public debates and scrutiny regular policies have to go through, so it's the perfect opportunity to sneak and fast-track some nefarious stuff in. I'm not that old yet, but I don't feel like this backdoor was misused to this extent in the past, like pre-2008 I mean (except 9/11 of course). It definitely feels like politicians have gooten of taste and are abusing this exploit now more with every little opportunity.

deleted 9mo ago

[deleted]

ahefner 9mo ago

Every government is an attacker.

friendzis 9mo ago

> What are the odds they're using this on-shore tech grab to implement their own domestic version of China's social credit score system, to easily get data on their own citizens who commit "wrong-think", without having to through the effort to twist the arm of US entities every time they want to do that? What are the odds that once shut down "chat control" will come up under a new name?

pyrale 9mo ago
> without having to through the effort to twist the arm of US entities every time they want to do that? Right now, it's more like US corpos are try to twist the arm of EU governments [1][2], pushing heavy propaganda to manipulate our elections [3], allying with the US government to do so. And the US government has been threatening EU govts with invasion [4], leveraging US corpos to harm lawful individuals doing their jobs in the EU [5], and sanctioning elected officials for performing their duties [6], or threatened to [7]. Sure, there's an hypothetical risk of the EU turning sour. On the other hand, when it comes to US corpos, the risk has materialized. [1]: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cly930y90lro https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cly930y90lro [2]: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c0589g0dqq7o https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c0589g0dqq7o [3]: https://www.politico.eu/article/twitter-faces-renewed-scrutiny-over-disinformation-in-europe/ https://www.politico.eu/article/twitter-faces-renewed-scruti... [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenland_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenland_crisis [5]: https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2025/11/19/nicolas-guillou-french-icc-judge-sanctioned-by-the-us-you-are-effectively-blacklisted-by-much-of-the-world-s-banking-system_6747628_4.html https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2025/11/19/n... [6]: https://www.brusselstimes.com/1931733/eu-parliament-blasts-us-over-visa-ban-on-former-commissioner-breton https://www.brusselstimes.com/1931733/eu-parliament-blasts-u... [7]: https://www.politico.eu/article/us-accused-threats-eu-diplomats-bid-to-kill-green-shipping-rules-negotiations-personal-intimidation/ https://www.politico.eu/article/us-accused-threats-eu-diplom...
- joe_mamba 9mo ago
  [flagged]

philipwhiuk 9mo ago

> Because the US or Chine government can't harm me in Europe via the data they collect from me That's an amusingly naïve perspective. The US government absolutely can harm you, via a multitude of ways.

n4r9 9mo ago
Also, Chinese-owned firms are known to be transferring EU citizens' data to China in violation of GDPR: https://noyb.eu/en/tiktok-aliexpress-shein-co-surrender-europeans-data-authoritarian-china https://noyb.eu/en/tiktok-aliexpress-shein-co-surrender-euro... China's government has strategic goals to destabilise and weaken the EU, and data-farming will be part of their strategy.
abc123abc123 9mo ago
Not to speak of russia who have been sending assassins to kill people in the EU for a long time, and the EU has not been very good at stopping those.

swiftcoder 9mo ago

> What about being required to carry a your-own-government-controlled tracking device? What part of the cellphone manufacturer being based overseas makes you think the government can't track you via it? Even leaving asides 5-eyes style data-sharing agreements, your US/Chinese smartphone still connects through a domestic cellphone carrier, using a domestic number. That's enough to have at a minimum fine-grained location tracking, call logs, and data usage.

orbifold 9mo ago
In fact 5g and all previous standards have a provision for lawful intercept. So your domestic intelligence service and police can always turn it into a listening device.