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> Many of our child-free friends are going to go through a lot of loneliness when they're old I've seen this "kids are insurance against loneliness" logic repe

> Many of our child-free friends are going to go through a lot of loneliness when they're old I've seen this "kids are insurance against loneliness" logic repeated often, but I don't believe this bares out in reality. I personally know plenty of child-free older couples who remain quite happy and social. I also know plenty of parents whose kids don't speak to them anymore or whose children have lives on the other side of the country/world. Anecdotally the loneliest older people I know are ones who have put it upon their children to keep themselves from loneliness. > And despite all that, we love them and we want to have them As a parent I always find it funny that we need to add this to every statement of frustration of family life (I'm not critiquing you, I also say this every time I mention any frustration about parenting). It is worth recognizing that saying the contrary is fundamentally taboo. I find this to be another under-discussed challenging of parenting: you can never even entertain the idea that "maybe this wasn't what I wanted"

fusslo 8mo ago
My mothers' friends have to fund vacations for their adult children and grand children in order to spend time with them. They wont let her stay at their home. My mother was giddy when my father died; so I have strong boundaries in our relationship. My brother moved to colorado after the service and never returned. I'm not convinced having children is the answer alone. (I say as a childless 35yo)
- lostlogin 8mo ago
  > They wont let her stay at their home. There are many reasons this could be the case. The internet (and Reddit in particular) is abound with AITA type discussions around boundaries within families.
- rootusrootus 8mo ago
  Being a parent is orthogonal to being someone people want to spend time with. Unless I knew for sure I was not in the latter group, I wouldn’t use it as a justification for not having kids.
wisemang 8mo ago
Indeed. There was a CBC radio episode last year that had parents discussing regrets. It felt weird to hear people saying these things out loud. https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/audio/9.6661746 https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/audio/9.6661746
koakuma-chan 8mo ago
So why do you have children? Can't synthesize a reason?
- lucyjojo 8mo ago
  have kids because i wanted to. and life is beautiful.
mothballed 8mo ago
>I find this to be another under-discussed challenging of parenting: you can never even entertain the idea that "maybe this wasn't what I wanted" Because there's no point in thinking about it. Your wife will ask if you want to leave, your children will hate you, and society will hate you, it will make you feel depressed, and meanwhile it won't accomplish anything. It's a dialogue only for yourself, once you acknowledge that, it becomes far less challenging to deal with and you can move forward with dealing with challenges in solvable ways.
iugtmkbdfil834 8mo ago
<< I find this to be another under-discussed challenging of parenting: you can never even entertain the idea that "maybe this wasn't what I wanted" You can absolutely think it as long as it stops there. There is a reason. At that point in the game, your needs and wants are supposed to be subordinate to those of the kids' long term survival. I could maybe understand this sentiment, oh 50 years ago, when you maybe could plausibly claim you had no idea that child rearing is not exactly easy, but unless a person is almost completely detached from society, it is near impossible to miss the "pregnancy will ruin your life" propaganda. Consequences. They exist. Some are life altering and expected to last a long time.
- crystal_revenge 8mo ago
  This is a hilariously narrow view of family life. Life is a lot more complicated and there's essentially limitless possibility between living a life you feel is solely about "paying consequences" or "completely abandoning all responsibility" (which, btw, is still an option. Not great, but neither is the former) But I do appreciate you providing an object lesson in just how taboo it is to even entertain the thought publicly!
  - iugtmkbdfil834 8mo ago
    You can entertain it. You just did. But don't expect standing ovation is my very subtle point. << This is a hilariously narrow view of family life. Quite the contrary, it allows for a very broad range of outcomes, because it deals with reality of the human condition. << which, btw, is still an option. Not great, but neither is the former Everything always is. Why, tomorrow I could quit my job and start a bar in Hawaii. As arguments go, this one was pretty weak. << Life is a lot more complicated and there's essentially limitless possibility between Why am I getting this feeling that you completely misread what I wrote.
    - rc5150 8mo ago
      "But don't expect standing ovation is my very subtle point." that's the exact reasoning why parents who complain about how hard it is to be a parent get no sympathy from you. You blew a load in somebody (or had a load blown into you) and another human popped out. That's a choice you made for yourself, nobody forced you to, and there is a big giant swath of people out there who couldn't care less.
jujube3 8mo ago
Being able to hook up with random strangers on apps might be fun in your 20s and 30s. When you're old and wrinkly, it's not going to be the same. I hate to say it, but this is especially true for women entering their twilight years. A lot of childless people in our generation are headed to a very sad and lonely future. COVID was exceptionally hard on these people. A lot of the weirdness of the COVID years was just people going crazy in isolation. Trading random stocks, or ordering crazy nonsense off of Amazon. Being alone is literally psychological abuse and a lot of them were subjected to it for months at a time.
- S_Bear 8mo ago
  And wife and I are both old and wrinkly and happily child free. Childfree people aren't just hedonists.
tuesdaynight 8mo ago
About your first point, I understand why it happens, but I get frustrated at these debates nowadays. Both sides cannot talk about their experiences without having to add something that invalidates the other side choice. They cannot fathom that the other side may prefer the disadvantages of their choice instead of the disadvantages of yours. Maybe it's the human condition to try to point out how the other side will regret their choices to validate our life decisions
- jonmb 8mo ago
  Well said. I appreciate people on both sides that can simply acknowledge having kids is great for some people, and not having them is great for others, and the world is big enough for all of us.

fusslo 8mo ago

My mothers' friends have to fund vacations for their adult children and grand children in order to spend time with them. They wont let her stay at their home. My mother was giddy when my father died; so I have strong boundaries in our relationship. My brother moved to colorado after the service and never returned. I'm not convinced having children is the answer alone. (I say as a childless 35yo)

lostlogin 8mo ago
> They wont let her stay at their home. There are many reasons this could be the case. The internet (and Reddit in particular) is abound with AITA type discussions around boundaries within families.
rootusrootus 8mo ago
Being a parent is orthogonal to being someone people want to spend time with. Unless I knew for sure I was not in the latter group, I wouldn’t use it as a justification for not having kids.

wisemang 8mo ago

Indeed. There was a CBC radio episode last year that had parents discussing regrets. It felt weird to hear people saying these things out loud. https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/audio/9.6661746 https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/audio/9.6661746

koakuma-chan 8mo ago

So why do you have children? Can't synthesize a reason?

lucyjojo 8mo ago
have kids because i wanted to. and life is beautiful.

mothballed 8mo ago

>I find this to be another under-discussed challenging of parenting: you can never even entertain the idea that "maybe this wasn't what I wanted" Because there's no point in thinking about it. Your wife will ask if you want to leave, your children will hate you, and society will hate you, it will make you feel depressed, and meanwhile it won't accomplish anything. It's a dialogue only for yourself, once you acknowledge that, it becomes far less challenging to deal with and you can move forward with dealing with challenges in solvable ways.

iugtmkbdfil834 8mo ago

<< I find this to be another under-discussed challenging of parenting: you can never even entertain the idea that "maybe this wasn't what I wanted" You can absolutely think it as long as it stops there. There is a reason. At that point in the game, your needs and wants are supposed to be subordinate to those of the kids' long term survival. I could maybe understand this sentiment, oh 50 years ago, when you maybe could plausibly claim you had no idea that child rearing is not exactly easy, but unless a person is almost completely detached from society, it is near impossible to miss the "pregnancy will ruin your life" propaganda. Consequences. They exist. Some are life altering and expected to last a long time.

crystal_revenge 8mo ago
This is a hilariously narrow view of family life. Life is a lot more complicated and there's essentially limitless possibility between living a life you feel is solely about "paying consequences" or "completely abandoning all responsibility" (which, btw, is still an option. Not great, but neither is the former) But I do appreciate you providing an object lesson in just how taboo it is to even entertain the thought publicly!
- iugtmkbdfil834 8mo ago
  You can entertain it. You just did. But don't expect standing ovation is my very subtle point. << This is a hilariously narrow view of family life. Quite the contrary, it allows for a very broad range of outcomes, because it deals with reality of the human condition. << which, btw, is still an option. Not great, but neither is the former Everything always is. Why, tomorrow I could quit my job and start a bar in Hawaii. As arguments go, this one was pretty weak. << Life is a lot more complicated and there's essentially limitless possibility between Why am I getting this feeling that you completely misread what I wrote.
  - rc5150 8mo ago
    "But don't expect standing ovation is my very subtle point." that's the exact reasoning why parents who complain about how hard it is to be a parent get no sympathy from you. You blew a load in somebody (or had a load blown into you) and another human popped out. That's a choice you made for yourself, nobody forced you to, and there is a big giant swath of people out there who couldn't care less.

jujube3 8mo ago

Being able to hook up with random strangers on apps might be fun in your 20s and 30s. When you're old and wrinkly, it's not going to be the same. I hate to say it, but this is especially true for women entering their twilight years. A lot of childless people in our generation are headed to a very sad and lonely future. COVID was exceptionally hard on these people. A lot of the weirdness of the COVID years was just people going crazy in isolation. Trading random stocks, or ordering crazy nonsense off of Amazon. Being alone is literally psychological abuse and a lot of them were subjected to it for months at a time.

S_Bear 8mo ago
And wife and I are both old and wrinkly and happily child free. Childfree people aren't just hedonists.

tuesdaynight 8mo ago

About your first point, I understand why it happens, but I get frustrated at these debates nowadays. Both sides cannot talk about their experiences without having to add something that invalidates the other side choice. They cannot fathom that the other side may prefer the disadvantages of their choice instead of the disadvantages of yours. Maybe it's the human condition to try to point out how the other side will regret their choices to validate our life decisions

jonmb 8mo ago
Well said. I appreciate people on both sides that can simply acknowledge having kids is great for some people, and not having them is great for others, and the world is big enough for all of us.