4 ms·

Debit cards come with the same fraud protection as credit cards do, which is the most important benefit of Visa/MasterCard.

gpderetta 9mo ago
In UK, consumer protection for Credit Cards is guaranteed by law (Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act), but not for Debit Cards (that's contractual).
- rcbdev 9mo ago
  The UK is often completely out of step with consumer protections in the EU.
  - lostlogin 9mo ago
    If a pan European system takes off, it’ll be interesting to see what happens with the UK. Their self-harming has been impressive.
  - alibarber 9mo ago
    Is it? Can’t say I’ve really noticed it. In fact just today I read this article in my EU country that sounds almost identical to what this comment describes: https://yle.fi/a/74-20209419 https://yle.fi/a/74-20209419 “ If, for example, the payment was made by credit card and the product has not been delivered, the consumer can contact their credit card company directly and request a refund. Credit card firms can usually refund the money quickly, Beurling-Pomoell noted, whereas consumers who paid by debit card must try to claim their money back from the bankruptcy estate. "Unfortunately, [reclaiming money from a bankruptcy estate] is usually a very long and difficult process. Consumers are generally in a relatively weak position when a company goes bankrupt," he said. Beurling-Pomoell added that consumers should always consider using a credit card when purchasing a product that they do not immediately receive.”
    - deleted 9mo ago
      [deleted]
  - hardlianotion 9mo ago
    I think some examples are in order - where has the UK, having recently left the EU, changed its laws so that it was completely out of step with consumer protection? Or is this one thing that made it necessary for them to leave the union, perhaps?
  - drnick1 9mo ago
    The "consumer protections" of the EU basically amount to communism (i.e., state interference in private matters). So no, that's not a thing the U.K. should emulate.
    - hermanzegerman 9mo ago
      Well the average bloke inside the EU is much better off than those in the UK. So much success for your policies https://www.ft.com/content/837a7b40-f534-11e3-91a8-00144feabdc0 https://www.ft.com/content/837a7b40-f534-11e3-91a8-00144feab...
      - gpderetta 9mo ago
        I somehow doubt that parent is British or has any clue about life in UK.
aspbee555 9mo ago
with a debit card your cash is gone from your bank account in that moment, even if you get it back later (hopefully). With a credit card they are not able to drain your bank account, the risks are entirely on the cc company and they will be significantly more motivated to get that back than a bank would. it's entirely their problem, not yours
- hermanzegerman 9mo ago
  No, Card Misuse is their problem either way in the EU
  - aspbee555 9mo ago
    misuse is not what I mean, I am talking about if your card is stolen and someone runs up a bunch of purchases before it gets caught, that money is gone from your account and any fees from overdrafts are the account holders problem to deal with and stress they can entirely avoid if they did not have/use a card tied directly to their bank account. I pay close attention to my bank account (as it is important for rent/important bills direct drafted), I only check the credit card when the bill comes in. users can even avoid interest if they pay that card off every month I pay everything with my credit card (bills, stores, online, etc) and pay it off at the end of the month. Even my tap-to-pay is tied to the credit card. I never use my debit card anywhere but an ATM. I have never had my bank account violated but I have had the credit card stolen from a store I visited (card company caught it as there was a bunch of fraud from the same store, they let me know and they proactively replaced my credit card) I have never had my ATM card compromised as it is for one purpose, the ATM best part of all is my credit score loves the large payments I always make on my credit card
    - hermanzegerman 9mo ago
      > I am talking about if your card is stolen and someone runs up a bunch of purchases before it gets caught, that money is gone from your account and any fees from overdrafts are the account holders problem to deal with and stress they can entirely avoid if they did not have/use a card tied directly to their bank account Yes that's what I'm talking about too, and it's called misuse. Liability is capped at 50€ as I said. We also don't have any fixed overdraft fees, only a compared to credit cards low interest rate, but this would also be the banks problem in this case. Also you still need a pin to pay or 2FA when paying online for European Cards. So that scenario seems very unlikely anyway. > I have never had my ATM card compromised as it is for one purpose, the ATM but I have had the credit card stolen from a store I visited (card company caught it as there was a bunch of fraud from the same store, they let me know and they proactively replaced my credit card. I have never had my card compromised, as it only uses the EMV Chip for payments in the civilized world, which you can't clone, and even then you would still need the PIN to pay, or the second Factor. I also never had my Debit card (what you mean with ATM card) compromised, because it's the same thing.
alistairSH 9mo ago
Just by their nature, that is inherently untrue. If your CC is stolen, you are not out all the cash in your account until the dispute is resolved. If your debit card is stolen, you lose that cash, making it more difficult to pay whatever other obligations you have that period.
- carlosjobim 9mo ago
  If your debit card is stolen, your bank has to return all money that was used or withdrawn to you. Since it is unauthorized use of your funds. Same for credit cards of course. Such money is returned swiftly. But the more concerning fraud is when you purchase something and don't receive what you should have received from the merchant. Whether it is due to outright fraud or not. In these cases you will also have your money reimbursed by your credit or debit card.
  - aydyn 9mo ago
    > If your debit card is stolen, your bank has to return all money that was used or withdrawn to you. Since it is unauthorized use of your funds. Same for credit cards of course. Such money is returned swiftly. This may be what the letter of the law says but this isn't reality. Using debit puts you at greater financial risk.
    - xquce 9mo ago
      “Using debit puts you at a greater financial risk.” What how? Surely the US populations credit card debt dorf even the global populations debit card fraud numbers. So while my whole family in a combined 200 years of adulthood have indeed lost some 1000 euro total in fraud, it's not thing compared to the average Americans credit card bills. I'd rather risk the street criminals with my debit than the suit wearing ones with their credit.
      - sethhochberg 9mo ago
        My debit card is a direct line to my primary bank account. If something goes wrong there and an attacker gains access, my cash is simply gone. Yes, the bank will perform an investigation and yes they may issue some provisional credits as a bridge, but there's a window of time between the theft and that investigation concluding where my actual cash is not in my account. With a credit card, if the card is compromised, its not my money being stolen - its the card issuer's money from my line of credit, and they were planning on settling up with me when my monthly statement closes. I still have to launch a fraud case with the issuer, but critically, _all of my money is still in my bank account_ and I can continue to pay my other bills and obligations as normal. I think its reasonable to consider giving up that buffer to be additional risk for the debit card approach, setting aside any other advantages or disadvantages between the two.
victorbjorklund 9mo ago
Not true. At least not in Sweden. There are different laws from credit cards and debit cards.
- carlosjobim 9mo ago
  This is the law which regulates such things, and the law makes no difference between any payment service (ie credit or debit), when it comes to unauthorized use, see chapter 5: https://svenskforfattningssamling.se/sites/default/files/sfs/2018-04/SFS2018-175.pdf https://svenskforfattningssamling.se/sites/default/files/sfs... Edit: Page 28 to be precise. The law explicitly states that funds have to be reimbursed to the victim immediately or at latest on the same bank day.
  - victorbjorklund 9mo ago
    And do you think this law applies to Debit cards too? No, it doesn’t. Of course you can find some laws that apply to both. But the relevant law is. https://www.riksdagen.se/sv/dokument-och-lagar/dokument/svensk-forfattningssamling/konsumentkreditlag-20101846_sfs-2010-1846/ https://www.riksdagen.se/sv/dokument-och-lagar/dokument/sven...
    - carlosjobim 9mo ago
      You're linking to a completely different and irrelevant law regarding consumer credits. The law 2018:175, which I previously linked to, is crystal clear and protects consumers against unauthorized use of their digital payment means, including but not limited to all types of card transactions. Otherwise, please let me know which chapter excludes debit cards. Even bank transactions are protected by this law. And it has been all the way to the supreme court, which ruled in favour of the fraud victim against the bank. The victim had voluntarily handed over their digital banking credentials to scammers, and the bank refused to reimburse the stolen money. However, the supreme court ruled that the bank was indeed bound by law to reimburse the money: https://www.domstol.se/hogsta-domstolen/avgoranden2/2022/115592/ https://www.domstol.se/hogsta-domstolen/avgoranden2/2022/115... But even so, if the law is not enough and if the supreme court ruling is not enough for you, then at least empirical evidence should be enough? Just ask around with family and friends and you'll find at least a few people who have been the victims of having their debit card stolen or cloned. They will let you know that the bank returned their money swiftly.
phil21 9mo ago
Others have said it but I will pile on as this is dangerous misinformation. It’s sort of true in a legal sense, but not a practical one. If you find yourself in a dispute (even outright fraud sometimes) you might end up stuck for weeks or months with your disputed funds frozen. If you are a highly paid software engineer with considerable assets and transaction volume at your bank it’s likely you will never experience hardship with disputing a transaction. If you are someone scraping by and that $200 depends on you paying rent on time that month you will find your experience to perhaps be different. I’ve helped friends and family with such disputes in the past. Credit cards even when it “goes wrong” are much better to deal with. Your credit limit being reduced a bit is immaterial to your life most of the time. Having your own money tied up during an investigation that demands more and more paperwork like police reports etc. can be incredibly damaging and if nothing else quite stressful. The experience some of my friends had in these matters is nothing like I had when I had my wallet stolen and I no longer recommend anyone use debit if they can avoid it. Heck, I had a friend who doesn’t even have a passport dispute an ATM transaction in a country he never visited. The bank initially denied it and it took weeks to eventually get it resolved in his favor. In the end having the banks money tied up vs your own money at risk is always better if you can handle the responsibility of a credit card.
- carlosjobim 9mo ago
  > Others have said it but I will pile on as this is dangerous misinformation. Was that an introduction to the rest of your comment? Explain to me please how a dispute with a vendor on a purchase makes a difference for your ability to pay rent? If the purchase was not fraud, then you have used that money anyway with your purchase. Unless you're planning to pay rent by bartering your Amazon order. If you're instead talking about a stolen or cloned debit card, then that money is refunded usually as soon as you've made a police report and sent it to the bank, which is a matter of two days at most. The paperwork is not difficult, because cards get stolen and cloned all the time. But the fraud protection is the same, even if procedures and timelines might differ.
  - phil21 9mo ago
    > But the fraud protection is the same, even if procedures and timelines might differ. I wrote about outright fraud taking weeks (in one case, months) to resolve. From my own personal direct experience. > I had a friend who doesn’t even have a passport dispute an ATM transaction in a country he never visited. Does this sound like a dispute with a vendor or outright fraud? A dispute with a vendor can also mean an overcharge or something like a renewal fee for a yearly membership that is under dispute. It's not just marginal items you bought and the vendor refuses a return or it never shows up or whatever. Like I said - if you are a highly paid professional you likely will never have a problem with this. It's an invisible part of the economy to you. If you are working class you are much more likely to have a wildly different experience. Banks have what is effectively an internal credit score system for each customer. For those with serious assets with the bank you get a lot more leeway and benefit of the doubt until you start abusing it.

gpderetta 9mo ago

In UK, consumer protection for Credit Cards is guaranteed by law (Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act), but not for Debit Cards (that's contractual).

rcbdev 9mo ago
The UK is often completely out of step with consumer protections in the EU.
- lostlogin 9mo ago
  If a pan European system takes off, it’ll be interesting to see what happens with the UK. Their self-harming has been impressive.
- alibarber 9mo ago
  Is it? Can’t say I’ve really noticed it. In fact just today I read this article in my EU country that sounds almost identical to what this comment describes: https://yle.fi/a/74-20209419 https://yle.fi/a/74-20209419 “ If, for example, the payment was made by credit card and the product has not been delivered, the consumer can contact their credit card company directly and request a refund. Credit card firms can usually refund the money quickly, Beurling-Pomoell noted, whereas consumers who paid by debit card must try to claim their money back from the bankruptcy estate. "Unfortunately, [reclaiming money from a bankruptcy estate] is usually a very long and difficult process. Consumers are generally in a relatively weak position when a company goes bankrupt," he said. Beurling-Pomoell added that consumers should always consider using a credit card when purchasing a product that they do not immediately receive.”
  - deleted 9mo ago
    [deleted]
- hardlianotion 9mo ago
  I think some examples are in order - where has the UK, having recently left the EU, changed its laws so that it was completely out of step with consumer protection? Or is this one thing that made it necessary for them to leave the union, perhaps?
- drnick1 9mo ago
  The "consumer protections" of the EU basically amount to communism (i.e., state interference in private matters). So no, that's not a thing the U.K. should emulate.
  - hermanzegerman 9mo ago
    Well the average bloke inside the EU is much better off than those in the UK. So much success for your policies https://www.ft.com/content/837a7b40-f534-11e3-91a8-00144feabdc0 https://www.ft.com/content/837a7b40-f534-11e3-91a8-00144feab...
    - gpderetta 9mo ago
      I somehow doubt that parent is British or has any clue about life in UK.

aspbee555 9mo ago

with a debit card your cash is gone from your bank account in that moment, even if you get it back later (hopefully). With a credit card they are not able to drain your bank account, the risks are entirely on the cc company and they will be significantly more motivated to get that back than a bank would. it's entirely their problem, not yours

hermanzegerman 9mo ago
No, Card Misuse is their problem either way in the EU
- aspbee555 9mo ago
  misuse is not what I mean, I am talking about if your card is stolen and someone runs up a bunch of purchases before it gets caught, that money is gone from your account and any fees from overdrafts are the account holders problem to deal with and stress they can entirely avoid if they did not have/use a card tied directly to their bank account. I pay close attention to my bank account (as it is important for rent/important bills direct drafted), I only check the credit card when the bill comes in. users can even avoid interest if they pay that card off every month I pay everything with my credit card (bills, stores, online, etc) and pay it off at the end of the month. Even my tap-to-pay is tied to the credit card. I never use my debit card anywhere but an ATM. I have never had my bank account violated but I have had the credit card stolen from a store I visited (card company caught it as there was a bunch of fraud from the same store, they let me know and they proactively replaced my credit card) I have never had my ATM card compromised as it is for one purpose, the ATM best part of all is my credit score loves the large payments I always make on my credit card
  - hermanzegerman 9mo ago
    > I am talking about if your card is stolen and someone runs up a bunch of purchases before it gets caught, that money is gone from your account and any fees from overdrafts are the account holders problem to deal with and stress they can entirely avoid if they did not have/use a card tied directly to their bank account Yes that's what I'm talking about too, and it's called misuse. Liability is capped at 50€ as I said. We also don't have any fixed overdraft fees, only a compared to credit cards low interest rate, but this would also be the banks problem in this case. Also you still need a pin to pay or 2FA when paying online for European Cards. So that scenario seems very unlikely anyway. > I have never had my ATM card compromised as it is for one purpose, the ATM but I have had the credit card stolen from a store I visited (card company caught it as there was a bunch of fraud from the same store, they let me know and they proactively replaced my credit card. I have never had my card compromised, as it only uses the EMV Chip for payments in the civilized world, which you can't clone, and even then you would still need the PIN to pay, or the second Factor. I also never had my Debit card (what you mean with ATM card) compromised, because it's the same thing.

alistairSH 9mo ago

Just by their nature, that is inherently untrue. If your CC is stolen, you are not out all the cash in your account until the dispute is resolved. If your debit card is stolen, you lose that cash, making it more difficult to pay whatever other obligations you have that period.

carlosjobim 9mo ago
If your debit card is stolen, your bank has to return all money that was used or withdrawn to you. Since it is unauthorized use of your funds. Same for credit cards of course. Such money is returned swiftly. But the more concerning fraud is when you purchase something and don't receive what you should have received from the merchant. Whether it is due to outright fraud or not. In these cases you will also have your money reimbursed by your credit or debit card.
- aydyn 9mo ago
  > If your debit card is stolen, your bank has to return all money that was used or withdrawn to you. Since it is unauthorized use of your funds. Same for credit cards of course. Such money is returned swiftly. This may be what the letter of the law says but this isn't reality. Using debit puts you at greater financial risk.
  - xquce 9mo ago
    “Using debit puts you at a greater financial risk.” What how? Surely the US populations credit card debt dorf even the global populations debit card fraud numbers. So while my whole family in a combined 200 years of adulthood have indeed lost some 1000 euro total in fraud, it's not thing compared to the average Americans credit card bills. I'd rather risk the street criminals with my debit than the suit wearing ones with their credit.
    - sethhochberg 9mo ago
      My debit card is a direct line to my primary bank account. If something goes wrong there and an attacker gains access, my cash is simply gone. Yes, the bank will perform an investigation and yes they may issue some provisional credits as a bridge, but there's a window of time between the theft and that investigation concluding where my actual cash is not in my account. With a credit card, if the card is compromised, its not my money being stolen - its the card issuer's money from my line of credit, and they were planning on settling up with me when my monthly statement closes. I still have to launch a fraud case with the issuer, but critically, _all of my money is still in my bank account_ and I can continue to pay my other bills and obligations as normal. I think its reasonable to consider giving up that buffer to be additional risk for the debit card approach, setting aside any other advantages or disadvantages between the two.

victorbjorklund 9mo ago

Not true. At least not in Sweden. There are different laws from credit cards and debit cards.

carlosjobim 9mo ago
This is the law which regulates such things, and the law makes no difference between any payment service (ie credit or debit), when it comes to unauthorized use, see chapter 5: https://svenskforfattningssamling.se/sites/default/files/sfs/2018-04/SFS2018-175.pdf https://svenskforfattningssamling.se/sites/default/files/sfs... Edit: Page 28 to be precise. The law explicitly states that funds have to be reimbursed to the victim immediately or at latest on the same bank day.
- victorbjorklund 9mo ago
  And do you think this law applies to Debit cards too? No, it doesn’t. Of course you can find some laws that apply to both. But the relevant law is. https://www.riksdagen.se/sv/dokument-och-lagar/dokument/svensk-forfattningssamling/konsumentkreditlag-20101846_sfs-2010-1846/ https://www.riksdagen.se/sv/dokument-och-lagar/dokument/sven...
  - carlosjobim 9mo ago
    You're linking to a completely different and irrelevant law regarding consumer credits. The law 2018:175, which I previously linked to, is crystal clear and protects consumers against unauthorized use of their digital payment means, including but not limited to all types of card transactions. Otherwise, please let me know which chapter excludes debit cards. Even bank transactions are protected by this law. And it has been all the way to the supreme court, which ruled in favour of the fraud victim against the bank. The victim had voluntarily handed over their digital banking credentials to scammers, and the bank refused to reimburse the stolen money. However, the supreme court ruled that the bank was indeed bound by law to reimburse the money: https://www.domstol.se/hogsta-domstolen/avgoranden2/2022/115592/ https://www.domstol.se/hogsta-domstolen/avgoranden2/2022/115... But even so, if the law is not enough and if the supreme court ruling is not enough for you, then at least empirical evidence should be enough? Just ask around with family and friends and you'll find at least a few people who have been the victims of having their debit card stolen or cloned. They will let you know that the bank returned their money swiftly.

phil21 9mo ago

Others have said it but I will pile on as this is dangerous misinformation. It’s sort of true in a legal sense, but not a practical one. If you find yourself in a dispute (even outright fraud sometimes) you might end up stuck for weeks or months with your disputed funds frozen. If you are a highly paid software engineer with considerable assets and transaction volume at your bank it’s likely you will never experience hardship with disputing a transaction. If you are someone scraping by and that $200 depends on you paying rent on time that month you will find your experience to perhaps be different. I’ve helped friends and family with such disputes in the past. Credit cards even when it “goes wrong” are much better to deal with. Your credit limit being reduced a bit is immaterial to your life most of the time. Having your own money tied up during an investigation that demands more and more paperwork like police reports etc. can be incredibly damaging and if nothing else quite stressful. The experience some of my friends had in these matters is nothing like I had when I had my wallet stolen and I no longer recommend anyone use debit if they can avoid it. Heck, I had a friend who doesn’t even have a passport dispute an ATM transaction in a country he never visited. The bank initially denied it and it took weeks to eventually get it resolved in his favor. In the end having the banks money tied up vs your own money at risk is always better if you can handle the responsibility of a credit card.

carlosjobim 9mo ago
> Others have said it but I will pile on as this is dangerous misinformation. Was that an introduction to the rest of your comment? Explain to me please how a dispute with a vendor on a purchase makes a difference for your ability to pay rent? If the purchase was not fraud, then you have used that money anyway with your purchase. Unless you're planning to pay rent by bartering your Amazon order. If you're instead talking about a stolen or cloned debit card, then that money is refunded usually as soon as you've made a police report and sent it to the bank, which is a matter of two days at most. The paperwork is not difficult, because cards get stolen and cloned all the time. But the fraud protection is the same, even if procedures and timelines might differ.
- phil21 9mo ago
  > But the fraud protection is the same, even if procedures and timelines might differ. I wrote about outright fraud taking weeks (in one case, months) to resolve. From my own personal direct experience. > I had a friend who doesn’t even have a passport dispute an ATM transaction in a country he never visited. Does this sound like a dispute with a vendor or outright fraud? A dispute with a vendor can also mean an overcharge or something like a renewal fee for a yearly membership that is under dispute. It's not just marginal items you bought and the vendor refuses a return or it never shows up or whatever. Like I said - if you are a highly paid professional you likely will never have a problem with this. It's an invisible part of the economy to you. If you are working class you are much more likely to have a wildly different experience. Banks have what is effectively an internal credit score system for each customer. For those with serious assets with the bank you get a lot more leeway and benefit of the doubt until you start abusing it.