7 ms·

There are many countries where debit cards are the norm and credit cards are extremely rare. In France, people are so afraid of consumer credit that cards are r

There are many countries where debit cards are the norm and credit cards are extremely rare. In France, people are so afraid of consumer credit that cards are renamed ‘deferred debit cards’ rather than credit cards, otherwise people do not want them.

consp 8mo ago
There is also a major difference as I understand it. They need to be resolved at the end of a certain period. There is a legal difference from Credit cards as in there is no continual liability and thus no continued line of credit. Getting a true credit card is also a lot harder here (not France) than a deferred payment card (usually 1 month) and has stricter credit checks.
- KellyCriterion 8mo ago
  Visa and MC have basicly all of these configurations, depending on country & legislation: - Direct Debit - Deffered Debit - Rolling Credit - Installment Credit And if you are a $MegaBigCorp customer of them, you can customize even more.
  - em-bee 8mo ago
    indeed. my credit card requires me to preload money from my bank account. it's like there is a second account that keeps a balance that i can spend using the credit card. whenever i use it, the balance is updated. how the credit is paid off i don't know. it could be either right away, or the amount is just hidden by my bank until it is time to pay off at the end of the month. either way, the credit limit is zero. so i can never spend more than i put in first. (though this may be based on how much i spend or be a configurable value.)
    - albumen 8mo ago
      So, your credit card is in practice a debit card?
      - em-bee 8mo ago
        yes. it is possible that i can get a real credit limit too, but i didn't check. these debit like credit cards put a different light on the statistics. as some people here have said, europeans don't use creditcards, and then someone contradicted that with a statistic of how much is paid with credit cards. how much of those credit card payments are made with debit like cards like mine? europe doesn't want their people to get into credit debt. possibly protection for people is stronger and makes it harder for banks to recover if people fail to pay? but most likely countries just want people to be able to protect themselves from overspending. like i can get an overdraw limit on my bank account. it is set to a default value based on my income. but i deliberately reset that to zero. i don't want an overdraw limit. if i really need to overdraw i'll change the limit at that time and i think i can even set that it is valid only for a short time and then it resets automatically.
    - bdangubic 8mo ago
      that is not a credit card :)
      - zinekeller 8mo ago
        There is a point though - Mastercard and Visa treats them as "prepaid" credit cards, which are different from both true prepaid cards (as issued in the US), charge cards, and true debit cards (former Maestro and Visa Electron). Again, different regions have different lines for this, especially in Europe. IIRC, bunq in the Netherlands issues Mastercard "credit cards" (with no "debit" annotation as on true Mastercard debit cards). They're treated as credit cards for Mastercard purposes but are backed by deposits.
      - em-bee 8mo ago
        it is what i get when i ask my bank for a credit card. it says credit card on it, and it is what i use when a credit card is called for. as i said, it is possible that i can actually get a real credit limit on the card, or possibly the bank has other credit card products.
- Beretta_Vexee 8mo ago
  It's more taboo to talk about revolving credit card than crack addiction for a french. I don't know a bank that offer them, even the shady online bank.
  - Invictus0 8mo ago
    Too bad that doesn't extend to their government, which seems to have no problem spending their credit down to the wire...
  - cferry 8mo ago
    Historically, these have been issued by "consumer credit" specialized banks like Sofinco; and retail chains ("carte Aurore"); traditional banks would seldom advertise them, if offered at all. Things have been changing a bit in recent years. Since the "debit" and "credit" nature of the card is now written on them, French folks have started to request "credit" ones for travelling (to rent a car for instance). My understanding is that for car rental purposes, anything using Visa/MC (and not a national debit network like Visa Debit in the US) will work, it doesn't actually need to be backed by a revolving credit. At a US gas pump, a Frenchie needs to select "credit" even though the card has "debit" written on it. Still, should the clerk refuse the card because it reads "debit" without running it... better have this "credit"-labeled one.
    - folmar 8mo ago
      > My understanding is that for car rental purposes, anything using Visa/MC (and not a national debit network like Visa Debit in the US) will work, it doesn't actually need to be backed by a revolving credit. Many companies will refuse all debit cards, or all cards with "electronic use only" restriction, at least for the deposit, irrespective of the payment network involved.
      - cuu508 8mo ago
        Why would they do that? Are there differences in chargeback risks?
- phil21 8mo ago
  These are historically called “charge cards” in the US and are common for corporations who give employees “credit cards” for travel and the like. American Express is big in this market - what looks like a normal Amex Business Platinum card can very well be a charge card that needs to be paid in full at the due date every month. There are minor differences but the big one is no carried balance between months is allowed. Payment in full due each month.
carlosjobim 8mo ago
Debit cards come with the same fraud protection as credit cards do, which is the most important benefit of Visa/MasterCard.
- gpderetta 8mo ago
  In UK, consumer protection for Credit Cards is guaranteed by law (Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act), but not for Debit Cards (that's contractual).
  - rcbdev 8mo ago
    The UK is often completely out of step with consumer protections in the EU.
    - lostlogin 8mo ago
      If a pan European system takes off, it’ll be interesting to see what happens with the UK. Their self-harming has been impressive.
    - alibarber 8mo ago
      Is it? Can’t say I’ve really noticed it. In fact just today I read this article in my EU country that sounds almost identical to what this comment describes: https://yle.fi/a/74-20209419 https://yle.fi/a/74-20209419 “ If, for example, the payment was made by credit card and the product has not been delivered, the consumer can contact their credit card company directly and request a refund. Credit card firms can usually refund the money quickly, Beurling-Pomoell noted, whereas consumers who paid by debit card must try to claim their money back from the bankruptcy estate. "Unfortunately, [reclaiming money from a bankruptcy estate] is usually a very long and difficult process. Consumers are generally in a relatively weak position when a company goes bankrupt," he said. Beurling-Pomoell added that consumers should always consider using a credit card when purchasing a product that they do not immediately receive.”
      - deleted 8mo ago
        [deleted]
barbazoo 8mo ago
Growing up in the EU, living in North America now, it's mind blowing to me how much credit these companies are making available to me. Not that I ever would outside of an actual emergency but I can see how it's tempting to someone who didn't grow up in a financial risk averse society.
- watwut 8mo ago
  > grow up in a financial risk averse society. It is not risk taking, it is a system that not just normalized the debt, but punishes people for not taking it. When you are recommended to use credit card, so you can function on debt, so that you can get better mortgage later on, then the thing in play is not just "risk aversion".
  - a_victorp 8mo ago
    Yeah, that always blew my mind as a non American.
- carlosjobim 8mo ago
  It's amazing. Meanwhile your fellow Europeans wouldn't trust to lend you their power drill for a weekend, even if you've known each other for 30 years. My European business banks have never offered any kind of line of credit. Of course they probably would if I needed, and went there to grovel and prostrate myself. In contrast, my American business bank just sends unprompted e-mails sometimes asking if I would like to borrow a bunch of money. American trust is based on rationality and intuition, while European trust is based on rules and authority. That's why business can flourish much more in the USA.
  - beAbU 8mo ago
    Nah, more like the money is lent out because it's so profitable to exploit americans addicted to debt.
  - beAbU 8mo ago
    > That's why business can flourish much more in the USA. And look where that's gotten you.
wolvoleo 8mo ago
Here it's more normal to save up for something and then buy it. Rather than buying on credit and then paying it off. It makes much more sense too. The financial system is built to stimulate that. For example if you'd buy a house you need to pay about 30% in cash and you can't loan that money somewhere else. This way you get people that know how to deal with money. And also the bank doesn't run a big risk if there's a market slump.
- Beretta_Vexee 8mo ago
  This is not the only difference in the banking system; 25-year fixed-rate mortgages are also a feature that is rarely found elsewhere. The minimum 10% deposit is mainly there to cover taxes, which cannot really be recovered by the bank in the event of default.
  - wolvoleo 8mo ago
    It's not a 10% deposit though, it's 30% (so 10% taxes and 20% investment in the house) And the fixed-rate mortgages are a good thing (though only when the rate is low hehe)

consp 8mo ago

There is also a major difference as I understand it. They need to be resolved at the end of a certain period. There is a legal difference from Credit cards as in there is no continual liability and thus no continued line of credit. Getting a true credit card is also a lot harder here (not France) than a deferred payment card (usually 1 month) and has stricter credit checks.

KellyCriterion 8mo ago
Visa and MC have basicly all of these configurations, depending on country & legislation: - Direct Debit - Deffered Debit - Rolling Credit - Installment Credit And if you are a $MegaBigCorp customer of them, you can customize even more.
- em-bee 8mo ago
  indeed. my credit card requires me to preload money from my bank account. it's like there is a second account that keeps a balance that i can spend using the credit card. whenever i use it, the balance is updated. how the credit is paid off i don't know. it could be either right away, or the amount is just hidden by my bank until it is time to pay off at the end of the month. either way, the credit limit is zero. so i can never spend more than i put in first. (though this may be based on how much i spend or be a configurable value.)
  - albumen 8mo ago
    So, your credit card is in practice a debit card?
    - em-bee 8mo ago
      yes. it is possible that i can get a real credit limit too, but i didn't check. these debit like credit cards put a different light on the statistics. as some people here have said, europeans don't use creditcards, and then someone contradicted that with a statistic of how much is paid with credit cards. how much of those credit card payments are made with debit like cards like mine? europe doesn't want their people to get into credit debt. possibly protection for people is stronger and makes it harder for banks to recover if people fail to pay? but most likely countries just want people to be able to protect themselves from overspending. like i can get an overdraw limit on my bank account. it is set to a default value based on my income. but i deliberately reset that to zero. i don't want an overdraw limit. if i really need to overdraw i'll change the limit at that time and i think i can even set that it is valid only for a short time and then it resets automatically.
  - bdangubic 8mo ago
    that is not a credit card :)
    - zinekeller 8mo ago
      There is a point though - Mastercard and Visa treats them as "prepaid" credit cards, which are different from both true prepaid cards (as issued in the US), charge cards, and true debit cards (former Maestro and Visa Electron). Again, different regions have different lines for this, especially in Europe. IIRC, bunq in the Netherlands issues Mastercard "credit cards" (with no "debit" annotation as on true Mastercard debit cards). They're treated as credit cards for Mastercard purposes but are backed by deposits.
    - em-bee 8mo ago
      it is what i get when i ask my bank for a credit card. it says credit card on it, and it is what i use when a credit card is called for. as i said, it is possible that i can actually get a real credit limit on the card, or possibly the bank has other credit card products.
Beretta_Vexee 8mo ago
It's more taboo to talk about revolving credit card than crack addiction for a french. I don't know a bank that offer them, even the shady online bank.
- Invictus0 8mo ago
  Too bad that doesn't extend to their government, which seems to have no problem spending their credit down to the wire...
- cferry 8mo ago
  Historically, these have been issued by "consumer credit" specialized banks like Sofinco; and retail chains ("carte Aurore"); traditional banks would seldom advertise them, if offered at all. Things have been changing a bit in recent years. Since the "debit" and "credit" nature of the card is now written on them, French folks have started to request "credit" ones for travelling (to rent a car for instance). My understanding is that for car rental purposes, anything using Visa/MC (and not a national debit network like Visa Debit in the US) will work, it doesn't actually need to be backed by a revolving credit. At a US gas pump, a Frenchie needs to select "credit" even though the card has "debit" written on it. Still, should the clerk refuse the card because it reads "debit" without running it... better have this "credit"-labeled one.
  - folmar 8mo ago
    > My understanding is that for car rental purposes, anything using Visa/MC (and not a national debit network like Visa Debit in the US) will work, it doesn't actually need to be backed by a revolving credit. Many companies will refuse all debit cards, or all cards with "electronic use only" restriction, at least for the deposit, irrespective of the payment network involved.
    - cuu508 8mo ago
      Why would they do that? Are there differences in chargeback risks?
phil21 8mo ago
These are historically called “charge cards” in the US and are common for corporations who give employees “credit cards” for travel and the like. American Express is big in this market - what looks like a normal Amex Business Platinum card can very well be a charge card that needs to be paid in full at the due date every month. There are minor differences but the big one is no carried balance between months is allowed. Payment in full due each month.

carlosjobim 8mo ago

Debit cards come with the same fraud protection as credit cards do, which is the most important benefit of Visa/MasterCard.

gpderetta 8mo ago
In UK, consumer protection for Credit Cards is guaranteed by law (Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act), but not for Debit Cards (that's contractual).
- rcbdev 8mo ago
  The UK is often completely out of step with consumer protections in the EU.
  - lostlogin 8mo ago
    If a pan European system takes off, it’ll be interesting to see what happens with the UK. Their self-harming has been impressive.
  - alibarber 8mo ago
    Is it? Can’t say I’ve really noticed it. In fact just today I read this article in my EU country that sounds almost identical to what this comment describes: https://yle.fi/a/74-20209419 https://yle.fi/a/74-20209419 “ If, for example, the payment was made by credit card and the product has not been delivered, the consumer can contact their credit card company directly and request a refund. Credit card firms can usually refund the money quickly, Beurling-Pomoell noted, whereas consumers who paid by debit card must try to claim their money back from the bankruptcy estate. "Unfortunately, [reclaiming money from a bankruptcy estate] is usually a very long and difficult process. Consumers are generally in a relatively weak position when a company goes bankrupt," he said. Beurling-Pomoell added that consumers should always consider using a credit card when purchasing a product that they do not immediately receive.”
    - deleted 8mo ago
      [deleted]

barbazoo 8mo ago

Growing up in the EU, living in North America now, it's mind blowing to me how much credit these companies are making available to me. Not that I ever would outside of an actual emergency but I can see how it's tempting to someone who didn't grow up in a financial risk averse society.

watwut 8mo ago
> grow up in a financial risk averse society. It is not risk taking, it is a system that not just normalized the debt, but punishes people for not taking it. When you are recommended to use credit card, so you can function on debt, so that you can get better mortgage later on, then the thing in play is not just "risk aversion".
- a_victorp 8mo ago
  Yeah, that always blew my mind as a non American.
carlosjobim 8mo ago
It's amazing. Meanwhile your fellow Europeans wouldn't trust to lend you their power drill for a weekend, even if you've known each other for 30 years. My European business banks have never offered any kind of line of credit. Of course they probably would if I needed, and went there to grovel and prostrate myself. In contrast, my American business bank just sends unprompted e-mails sometimes asking if I would like to borrow a bunch of money. American trust is based on rationality and intuition, while European trust is based on rules and authority. That's why business can flourish much more in the USA.
- beAbU 8mo ago
  Nah, more like the money is lent out because it's so profitable to exploit americans addicted to debt.
- beAbU 8mo ago
  > That's why business can flourish much more in the USA. And look where that's gotten you.

wolvoleo 8mo ago

Here it's more normal to save up for something and then buy it. Rather than buying on credit and then paying it off. It makes much more sense too. The financial system is built to stimulate that. For example if you'd buy a house you need to pay about 30% in cash and you can't loan that money somewhere else. This way you get people that know how to deal with money. And also the bank doesn't run a big risk if there's a market slump.

Beretta_Vexee 8mo ago
This is not the only difference in the banking system; 25-year fixed-rate mortgages are also a feature that is rarely found elsewhere. The minimum 10% deposit is mainly there to cover taxes, which cannot really be recovered by the bank in the event of default.
- wolvoleo 8mo ago
  It's not a 10% deposit though, it's 30% (so 10% taxes and 20% investment in the house) And the fixed-rate mortgages are a good thing (though only when the rate is low hehe)