6 ms·

New Yorker has a detailed article on this phenomenon that's a great read. It busts many common myths. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2025/03/03/the-popula

by ashishb 8mo ago

New Yorker has a detailed article on this phenomenon that's a great read. It busts many common myths. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2025/03/03/the-population-implosion https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2025/03/03/the-population...

phainopepla2 8mo ago
What are some of the myths they bust in that article? For those of us who can't see past the paywall
- PyWoody 8mo ago
  https://archive.is/bmlll https://archive.is/bmlll
  - Mycroftty 8mo ago
    I am at work and didn't have time to read the full article. Here's Gemini summary: The article "The End of Children" (published in The New Yorker, March 2025) explores the global phenomenon of plummeting fertility rates, examining why traditional explanations and policy solutions are failing to reverse the trend. Here is a summary of the key points: * Economic Support Isn't Enough: The article challenges the popular liberal argument that fertility decline is primarily caused by economic insecurity or a lack of childcare. It points out that Nordic countries like Finland and Sweden—which offer generous parental leave, "baby boxes," and flexible work cultures—still face declining birth rates similar to or lower than the U.S. Even in places where childcare is free (Vienna) versus expensive (Zurich), fertility rates often remain identical. * The "Achievement Culture" Trap: The definition of "affording" a child has inflated significantly. In many wealthy, educated circles, raising a child now implies providing a suite of expensive advantages—individual bedrooms, travel sports, private lessons, and organic diets. This "intensive parenting" model means working mothers today actually spend more time on active childcare than stay-at-home mothers did in previous generations, making the prospect of parenthood feel overwhelming. * Political and Educational polarization: There is a widening fertility gap based on politics and education. Democrats and those with higher degrees are significantly more likely to be childless. This is partly attributed to the extended time required for education and career establishment, pushing childbearing to later years when it is biologically more difficult. * Failed Government Interventions: The author highlights various aggressive attempts by governments to boost birth rates, such as Hungary's tax exemptions for mothers of four and South Korea's numerous "happiness projects" and subsidies. Despite spending fortunes, no modern nation has successfully reversed a low fertility rate back to replacement levels. * A Shift in Meaning: The article concludes with a philosophical reflection on how children have transformed from a natural part of life into "variables" in a high-stakes lifestyle choice. They are increasingly viewed through the lens of identity and personal fulfillment, leading to a culture where parents fear judgment and non-parents fear being seen as selfish, intensifying the anxiety around having children at all.
    - alt227 8mo ago
      Wow, I never thought id see the day on HN.....
- ashishb 8mo ago
  One really common that myth this article busts is about child care. "Child care is virtually free in Vienna and extremely expensive in Zurich, but the Austrians and the Swiss have the same fertility rate."
  - bombcar 8mo ago
    Childcare can be nice to have but it can also be a full-time job just getting the kids there if you have more than a few. We certainly take advantage of things like free preschool; but if we look at it objectively (and ignore benefits to the child) it consumes more time than if we didn't use it - getting him ready, walking him to school, picking him up, etc. Since it's free, we look at "time spent" and it's something like 2-3 hours spent to "get" 3 hours.
    - showerst 8mo ago
      Minus the commute you had to do most of that anyway though, right? We get my four year old ready and walk her to school (city free pre-k a few blocks away, plus paid aftercare). It takes about an hour to get breakfasted, dressed, and ready which we would be doing anyway. Counting the walk both ways it's about 30 minutes of extra time for 8 hours of childcare. Unless your commute is just huge I can't see that math being true.
      - bombcar 8mo ago
        You got 8 hours out of it, we get maybe three - because of how it works out. Add in infants and toddlers, and the fact that many places seem to do childcare for a very particular age range, and it can get hectic. Workable, of course, anything is, but hectic. It can be understandable why people look at it from the outside and say "wow, that's a lot of kids, too many for me."
        showerst 8mo ago
        Yeah, haha fair. Even my friends with two look noticeably shell shocked most of the time. Good luck =)
- garciasn 8mo ago
  TL;DR: the article argues we cannot fix the population crisis with small tax breaks or traditional values because the modern world has made the cost of raising a child being too high for most people to want to try. --- The article argues that the global drop in birth rates isn’t a moral failure or a biological accident, but a logical response to the pressures of modern life. 1. Myth: People are too selfish/liberal to have kids. Reality: It’s not about hedonism. Instead, people are avoiding parenthood because the life has become such a grind. In places like Korea, young people feel that bringing a child into such a hyper-competitive, expensive world is unfair to the child. 2. Myth: It’s a biological problem (low testosterone/chemicals). Reality: There is no evidence that people can’t have kids physically. The issue is a lack of desire. It is a social and economic choice, not a medical one. 3. Myth: Women working is the cause. Reality: Data show birth rates are actually higher in countries where women have more jobs and support. In countries where women stay home more (like parts of India), birth rates are still crashing. Work isn't the enemy; lack of support is. 4. Myth: Immigrants will replace the population. Reality: Newcomers quickly adopt the habits of their new country. Within one generation, immigrant birth rates drop to match everyone else’s. 5. Myth: The government can just pay people to have babies. Reality: South Korea spent $280 billion on this effort and the birth rate still hit record lows. Cash doesn't work if the overall culture is too stressful and the difference in culture between men and women remains fixated on old roles. e: moved TL;DR to the top.
  - bombcar 8mo ago
    > lack of support is This is the key - but "support" often gets converted by the modern world into dollars - but there's no rational way to pay someone else to be the parent. You need support to be much more than just monetary payments - nobody would think you're "supporting" someone going through a mental crisis or drug addiction by giving them a giant ball of cash; it might HELP in some way, but it's not really the totality of support. Anyway if someone wants to send me a small portion of $280 billion I'll have more kids, you can even get pictures of them now and then! Looking to adopt rich grandparents ;)
  - kmijyiyxfbklao 8mo ago
    > 4. Myth: Immigrants will replace the population. > Reality: Newcomers quickly adopt the habits of their new country. Within one generation, immigrant birth rates drop to match everyone else’s. That doesn't address the "myth". You can keep bringing more migrants and eventually replace the population.

by ashishb 8mo ago

phainopepla2 8mo ago

What are some of the myths they bust in that article? For those of us who can't see past the paywall

PyWoody 8mo ago
https://archive.is/bmlll https://archive.is/bmlll
- Mycroftty 8mo ago
  I am at work and didn't have time to read the full article. Here's Gemini summary: The article "The End of Children" (published in The New Yorker, March 2025) explores the global phenomenon of plummeting fertility rates, examining why traditional explanations and policy solutions are failing to reverse the trend. Here is a summary of the key points: * Economic Support Isn't Enough: The article challenges the popular liberal argument that fertility decline is primarily caused by economic insecurity or a lack of childcare. It points out that Nordic countries like Finland and Sweden—which offer generous parental leave, "baby boxes," and flexible work cultures—still face declining birth rates similar to or lower than the U.S. Even in places where childcare is free (Vienna) versus expensive (Zurich), fertility rates often remain identical. * The "Achievement Culture" Trap: The definition of "affording" a child has inflated significantly. In many wealthy, educated circles, raising a child now implies providing a suite of expensive advantages—individual bedrooms, travel sports, private lessons, and organic diets. This "intensive parenting" model means working mothers today actually spend more time on active childcare than stay-at-home mothers did in previous generations, making the prospect of parenthood feel overwhelming. * Political and Educational polarization: There is a widening fertility gap based on politics and education. Democrats and those with higher degrees are significantly more likely to be childless. This is partly attributed to the extended time required for education and career establishment, pushing childbearing to later years when it is biologically more difficult. * Failed Government Interventions: The author highlights various aggressive attempts by governments to boost birth rates, such as Hungary's tax exemptions for mothers of four and South Korea's numerous "happiness projects" and subsidies. Despite spending fortunes, no modern nation has successfully reversed a low fertility rate back to replacement levels. * A Shift in Meaning: The article concludes with a philosophical reflection on how children have transformed from a natural part of life into "variables" in a high-stakes lifestyle choice. They are increasingly viewed through the lens of identity and personal fulfillment, leading to a culture where parents fear judgment and non-parents fear being seen as selfish, intensifying the anxiety around having children at all.
  - alt227 8mo ago
    Wow, I never thought id see the day on HN.....
ashishb 8mo ago
One really common that myth this article busts is about child care. "Child care is virtually free in Vienna and extremely expensive in Zurich, but the Austrians and the Swiss have the same fertility rate."
- bombcar 8mo ago
  Childcare can be nice to have but it can also be a full-time job just getting the kids there if you have more than a few. We certainly take advantage of things like free preschool; but if we look at it objectively (and ignore benefits to the child) it consumes more time than if we didn't use it - getting him ready, walking him to school, picking him up, etc. Since it's free, we look at "time spent" and it's something like 2-3 hours spent to "get" 3 hours.
  - showerst 8mo ago
    Minus the commute you had to do most of that anyway though, right? We get my four year old ready and walk her to school (city free pre-k a few blocks away, plus paid aftercare). It takes about an hour to get breakfasted, dressed, and ready which we would be doing anyway. Counting the walk both ways it's about 30 minutes of extra time for 8 hours of childcare. Unless your commute is just huge I can't see that math being true.
    - bombcar 8mo ago
      You got 8 hours out of it, we get maybe three - because of how it works out. Add in infants and toddlers, and the fact that many places seem to do childcare for a very particular age range, and it can get hectic. Workable, of course, anything is, but hectic. It can be understandable why people look at it from the outside and say "wow, that's a lot of kids, too many for me."
      - showerst 8mo ago
        Yeah, haha fair. Even my friends with two look noticeably shell shocked most of the time. Good luck =)
garciasn 8mo ago
TL;DR: the article argues we cannot fix the population crisis with small tax breaks or traditional values because the modern world has made the cost of raising a child being too high for most people to want to try. --- The article argues that the global drop in birth rates isn’t a moral failure or a biological accident, but a logical response to the pressures of modern life. 1. Myth: People are too selfish/liberal to have kids. Reality: It’s not about hedonism. Instead, people are avoiding parenthood because the life has become such a grind. In places like Korea, young people feel that bringing a child into such a hyper-competitive, expensive world is unfair to the child. 2. Myth: It’s a biological problem (low testosterone/chemicals). Reality: There is no evidence that people can’t have kids physically. The issue is a lack of desire. It is a social and economic choice, not a medical one. 3. Myth: Women working is the cause. Reality: Data show birth rates are actually higher in countries where women have more jobs and support. In countries where women stay home more (like parts of India), birth rates are still crashing. Work isn't the enemy; lack of support is. 4. Myth: Immigrants will replace the population. Reality: Newcomers quickly adopt the habits of their new country. Within one generation, immigrant birth rates drop to match everyone else’s. 5. Myth: The government can just pay people to have babies. Reality: South Korea spent $280 billion on this effort and the birth rate still hit record lows. Cash doesn't work if the overall culture is too stressful and the difference in culture between men and women remains fixated on old roles. e: moved TL;DR to the top.
- bombcar 8mo ago
  > lack of support is This is the key - but "support" often gets converted by the modern world into dollars - but there's no rational way to pay someone else to be the parent. You need support to be much more than just monetary payments - nobody would think you're "supporting" someone going through a mental crisis or drug addiction by giving them a giant ball of cash; it might HELP in some way, but it's not really the totality of support. Anyway if someone wants to send me a small portion of $280 billion I'll have more kids, you can even get pictures of them now and then! Looking to adopt rich grandparents ;)
- kmijyiyxfbklao 8mo ago
  > 4. Myth: Immigrants will replace the population. > Reality: Newcomers quickly adopt the habits of their new country. Within one generation, immigrant birth rates drop to match everyone else’s. That doesn't address the "myth". You can keep bringing more migrants and eventually replace the population.